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[Giga Drill BREAKER]

OperatingWookie wrote...

mvaning wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

But does a Seival thread ever make sense?

And I still see people confuse a Main conflict/Sub-plot with Main theme when ME doesn't have a main theme at all

I believe this thread is quite valid. The writers had to have some sort of idea how to end the triliogy. It may have been unwritten, but it was there.

I have a feeling you're making a point about the series' direction and consistency.

I don't think they did have an idea.    They clearly ripped the ending from another game.    There is no artistic integrity or planning involved with taking ideas that already exist.

Beleive me, that's not a bad thing. It did more good for Mass Effect than anything. I mean look at Kai Leng. Without borrowing ideas, we wouldn't have such an excellent foil for Shepard to contend with.

Well now your just trolling.

[Red Panda]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I'm certain there's a good reason the Geth end up being allies, and the enemy Geth end up being antagonists because of Reaper influence. 


Organics vs. synthetics is not a theme. 

Just because you can make peace, doesn't make it last.

Peace is the absence on war. Conflict is inevitable.

What's the reason for making the Geth sympathetic figures who prefer friendly relations with organics over the percieved antagonistsic ones then?

Unless you're implying the Geth species as a concept, the character of Legion, and most of the point of the Rannoch arc, are all completely pointless and have no meaning attached to them whatsoever. 

Also, based on evidence from the Catalyst and all the missions in Mass Effect where you are in conflict with synthetic life. I would say that is is indeed a theme.

That doesn't make it a theme, let alone the supposed 'main theme' of the trilogy. 

Were it not, the ending would be nonsensical.

It is.

First off, I'm not saying making peace to deal with a greater threat is a problem. It's just that organics cannot exist with synthetics. Sooner or later, there'll be war and BOOM! Bad stuff happens.

Secondly, the main themes are up for debate. I'm just saying there's alot of wonderful organic vs. synthetic goodness in this series.

And third, I wish you could see the endings as I do. They're so...   perfect.

[mvaning]

OperatingWookie wrote...


Beleive me, that's not a bad thing. It did more good for Mass Effect than anything. I mean look at Kai Leng. Without borrowing ideas, we wouldn't have such an excellent foil for Shepard to contend with.

No,  it did not do anything good.     The ending is the most disliked thing about the trilogy.  It is so disliked that it is rumored that two of the devs quit because the negative press was so bad.

I don't dislike Kai Leng, but he is also a charater that alot of people don't like.    You can't justify re-using old ideas as a good strategy in video game development.     Rehashing old content that you make is disliked most of the time.   Rehashing old ideas that someone else made is subject to horrible backlash.

Its the worst thing you can do as an artist. 

[Red Panda]

DinoSteve wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

mvaning wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

But does a Seival thread ever make sense?

And I still see people confuse a Main conflict/Sub-plot with Main theme when ME doesn't have a main theme at all

I believe this thread is quite valid. The writers had to have some sort of idea how to end the triliogy. It may have been unwritten, but it was there.

I have a feeling you're making a point about the series' direction and consistency.

I don't think they did have an idea.    They clearly ripped the ending from another game.    There is no artistic integrity or planning involved with taking ideas that already exist.

Beleive me, that's not a bad thing. It did more good for Mass Effect than anything. I mean look at Kai Leng. Without borrowing ideas, we wouldn't have such an excellent foil for Shepard to contend with.

Well now your just trolling.

Am I?

http://social.biowar.../index/15816225

Or do you need to believe?

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Can you please lie to me and tell me you are so I can go to sleep.

[Red Panda]

mvaning wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...


Beleive me, that's not a bad thing. It did more good for Mass Effect than anything. I mean look at Kai Leng. Without borrowing ideas, we wouldn't have such an excellent foil for Shepard to contend with.

No,  it did not do anything good.     The ending is the most disliked thing about the trilogy.  It is so disliked that it is rumored that two of the devs quit because the negative press was so bad.

I don't dislike Kai Leng, but he is also a charater that alot of people don't like.    You can't justify re-using old ideas as a good strategy in video game development.     Rehashing old content that you make is disliked most of the time.   Rehashing old ideas that someone else made is subject to horrible backlash.

Its the worst thing you can do as an artist. 

I know some things are touchy subjects, but using ideas to make a game better isn't a bad idea. I mean every artist learns the techniques of the better artists before them so, why not? It seems like a good idea.

[The Night Mammoth]

OperatingWookie wrote...

First off, I'm not saying making peace to deal with a greater threat is a problem. It's just that organics cannot exist with synthetics. Sooner or later, there'll be war and BOOM! Bad stuff happens.

Then you are saying all those things have no meaning attached to them whatsoever. I'd much rather some of the best parts of the series are worth something than some false sense of narrative consistency is established at the detriment of large parts of the story. 

Secondly, the main themes are up for debate. I'm just saying there's alot of wonderful organic vs. synthetic goodness in this series.

And that it's the main theme. 

Which it's not. 

It's not even a theme. There needs to be consistency, definition, and prevalence for that. 

[mvaning]

OperatingWookie wrote...

I know some things are touchy
subjects, but using ideas to make a game better isn't a bad idea. I mean
every artist learns the techniques of the better artists before them
so, why not? It seems like a good idea.

Regardless of your view on the moral implications regarding PLAGERISM, It still doesn't take six years to use a game ending that was already made 5 years prior.

Therefor, I stand that this game ending was rushed.      

Modifié par mvaning, 10 février 2013 - 12:39 .

[Red Panda]

DinoSteve wrote...

Can you please lie to me and tell me you are so I can go to sleep.

I wouldn't lie to you. Or would I?

I want you to speculate.

[Red Panda]

mvaning wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

I know some things are touchy
subjects, but using ideas to make a game better isn't a bad idea. I mean
every artist learns the techniques of the better artists before them
so, why not? It seems like a good idea.

Regardless of your view on the moral implications regarding PLAGERISM, It still doesn't take six years to use a game ending that was already made 5 years prior.

Therefor, I stand that this game ending was rushed.      

I don't remember Deus Ex having organics fighting Synthetics.

And besides, every worthwhile artist and writer reads the works of the great who came before them.

[AlexMBrennan]

Just saw the thread - that's Hale in Planescape: Torment, right?

[The Night Mammoth]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Just saw the thread - that's Hale in Planescape: Torment, right?

Correctomundo.

[Red Panda]

Anyways, we've been off-topic long enough, though ME related.

I would say I have no strong feelings one way or the other on the idea that Mass Effect was planned from the beginning.

Cool video though, really makes you think.

Modifié par OperatingWookie, 10 février 2013 - 12:50 .

[mvaning]

OperatingWookie wrote...

I don't remember Deus Ex having organics fighting Synthetics.

And besides, every worthwhile artist and writer reads the works of the great who came before them.

Lol, you have to be trolling or just grasping for air in a lost arguement. 

The ME ending is a carbon copy of the Deus Ex ending, there is no question about this.   You can argue all you want about it but won't change the fact.   

ME ending: 

Control the Synthetics(reapers)
Merge with the Synthetics
Destroy the Synthetics

Deus Ex ending:

Control the AI
Merge with the AI
Destroy the AI

If you take a banana, and put chocolate on the banana, guess what?    Well its still a banana.  

There is also a very clear difference between being inspired by other creator's works and using their ideas as your own.    If you use their ideas for your own, there is no artistic integrity or planning.   It is just as is, nothing more.     If you are inspired by someone elses work, then this can propel your own creativity.   But creating new ideas still takes time.  

6 years for a new idea?   Justifiable.
6 years for a used idea?  No way.    

Modifié par mvaning, 10 février 2013 - 12:54 .

[Eterna]

mvaning wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

I don't remember Deus Ex having organics fighting Synthetics.

And besides, every worthwhile artist and writer reads the works of the great who came before them.

Lol, you have to be trolling or just grasping for air in a lost arguement. 

The ME ending is a carbon copy of the Deus Ex ending, there is no question about this.   You can argue all you want about it but won't change the fact.   

ME ending: 

Control the AI
Merge with the AI
Destroy the AI

Deus Ex ending:

Control the AI
Merge with the AI
Destroy the AI

If you take a banana, and put chocolate on the banana, guess what?    Well its still a banana.  

There is also a very clear difference between being inspired by other creator's works and using their ideas as your own.    If you use their ideas for your own, there is no artistic integrity or planning.   It is just as is, nothing more.     If you are inspired by someone elses work, then this can propel your own creativity.   But creating new ideas still takes time.  

6 years for a new idea?   Justifiable.
6 years for a used idea?  No way.    

With enough simplification you can make anything seem similar. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 10 février 2013 - 12:52 .

[Red Panda]

Eterna5 wrote...

mvaning wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

I don't remember Deus Ex having organics fighting Synthetics.

And besides, every worthwhile artist and writer reads the works of the great who came before them.

Lol, you have to be trolling or just grasping for air in a lost arguement. 

The ME ending is a carbon copy of the Deus Ex ending, there is no question about this.   You can argue all you want about it but won't change the fact.   

ME ending: 

Control the AI
Merge with the AI
Destroy the AI

Deus Ex ending:

Control the AI
Merge with the AI
Destroy the AI

If you take a banana, and put chocolate on the banana, guess what?    Well its still a banana.  

There is also a very clear difference between being inspired by other creator's works and using their ideas as your own.    If you use their ideas for your own, there is no artistic integrity or planning.   It is just as is, nothing more.     If you are inspired by someone elses work, then this can propel your own creativity.   But creating new ideas still takes time.  

6 years for a new idea?   Justifiable.
6 years for a used idea?  No way.    

With enough simplification you can make anything seem similar. 

Exactly this.

If I learn about the techniques of Matisse and then paint a painting using similar strokes, by that definition I stole his work.

By that definition, I'm a bad person and should feel bad.




But that's not the case. In Deus Ex, the protagonist becomes one with an AI and guides humanity into a golden age of peace and prosperity. In Mass Effect, war-torn and world weary, Shepard sacrifices their life so that there can be peace. Shepard is dead. Denton is not.

And I certainly don't see any Illuminati in Mass Effect.

Modifié par OperatingWookie, 10 février 2013 - 12:58 .

[mvaning]

Trying to argue against the obvious is only wishful thinking.

Oh and by the way, copying someone elses work has never been a valid technique in any form of art.   

And I'm also not the only one who has noticed how ME and DE have the same endings.  ME has been burned several times for how similar the two endings are.    Its the most embarressing part of the ending controversy.

But back to my point:   This ending was rushed and mostly unplanned. 

Modifié par mvaning, 10 février 2013 - 01:06 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

OperatingWookie wrote...


If I learn about the techniques of Matisse and then paint a painting using similar strokes, by that definition I stole his work.

.

pfft If I did that it would still look like ****.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 10 février 2013 - 01:03 .

[Red Panda]

mvaning wrote...

Trying to argue against the obvious is only wishful thinking.

By your logic if I write about oranges, then no one else in all of human history should be allowed to write, speak, or even think about oranges unless I give the word.

That does not make sense!


Anyways, as the the main topic of the thread, I must say that it's a very interesting point that Seival brings up.

It can't really be supported, but nonetheless is an excellent thing to speculate about.

[mvaning]

OperatingWookie wrote...

By your logic if I write about oranges, then no one else in all of human history should be allowed to write, speak, or even think about oranges unless I give the word.

That does not make sense!


Anyways, as the the main topic of the thread, I must say that it's a very interesting point that Seival brings up.

It can't really be supported, but nonetheless is an excellent thing to speculate about.

By your logic, plagerism is a valid technique for making art.

[Red Panda]

mvaning wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

By your logic if I write about oranges, then no one else in all of human history should be allowed to write, speak, or even think about oranges unless I give the word.

That does not make sense!


Anyways, as the the main topic of the thread, I must say that it's a very interesting point that Seival brings up.

It can't really be supported, but nonetheless is an excellent thing to speculate about.

By your logic, plagerism is a valid technique for making art.

Do we not have art school? We've been over this.

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

To be fair, trying to create a story without it having elements that are similar to another story before it is next to impossible. The trick is to make these elements seem unique within the parameters of your story. You must combine them in different ways, so to speak. I'm not really good at explaining it but hopefully you get my drift.

That being said, it is fair to think that they might have taken the ending from Deus Ex (though I personally doubt it) because they are so similar and the ideas expressed behind it in ME3 were not focused on that much within the ME trilogy. They were a sub-theme, but you don't end your story on a sub-theme.

To the OP, I highly doubt that the ending was planned from the beginning.

Modifié par TheIdiocyWizard2.0, 10 février 2013 - 01:16 .

[mvaning]

I will not try to argue this anymore but instead, I will link you to a reviewer (one of many) who thinks along the same lines that I do about the DE/ME ending:

[mvaning]

TheIdiocyWizard2.0 wrote...

To be fair, trying to create a story without it having elements that are similar to another story before it is next to impossible. The trick is to make these elements seem unique within the parameters of your story. You must combine them in different ways, so to speak. I'm not really good at explaining it but hopefully you get my drift.

I agree with this.   But I don't agree with the idea that the ending had enough investment put into it for it to have become an original.

Modifié par mvaning, 10 février 2013 - 02:16 .

[Drewton]

Synthesis is needed for organics and synthetics to co-exist?

Modifié par Drewton, 10 février 2013 - 05:12 .