474 réponses à ce sujet

[Seival]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Seival wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

yeah, Leviathan states that they created the Catalyst, the Catalyst created the Reapers and then had them create the Relay Network. The Citadel is the master relay (and probably the first) The Catalyst existed before the Citadel. The Catalyst is not the Citadel. The Catalyst only resides within it.

I also believe that the Catalyst resides not just within Citadel, but also within each Relay, and each Reaper capital ship... as a hardware. That's why you can't hack or infect it, and need very specific galactic scale explosion to re-write its personality or destroy it.

hmm I'm not sure that's how it works. But its definitely an interesting thought worth speculating.

Seems that people want to believe that the Catalyst "is" the Citadel. When reality, its an individual being.....that just happens to be the central consciousness of the Reapers who resides within the Citadel.

Well, and it's logical for such consciousness to have a lot of backups, located in both mobile and static Reaper platforms. That improves its survivability greatly.

Right. So an AI that built a master station to install itself in wouldn't wire himself up to all the systems. No, that would be too easy. Except the magic elevator he wired himself into just incase some organic happens to pass out in the that one exact spot. Now that's worth wiring yourself to. Screw the nuicance systems like the "REAP / Not REAP" switch. 

WTF is that crap? How do you honestly swallow that garbage?

Do you realize that there was no "magic elevator", "conversation in the vacuum", "control rods", "pillar of light", and "glass tube"? The whole conversation with the Catalyst is mental, I think it's obvious. In that conversation Catalyst just created an "environment" which would look familiar enough to Shapard. The similar thing happened in Overlord, Geth Concensus, and during conversation with the Leviathan...

...And when someone uses mental abilities on you to talk, it doesn't mean he wants to mind-control you. Leviathan proved that.

this is your headcanon - it is neither confirmed, nor declined that the conversation is in sheps head. it is our speculation.

we donrt know what and where it really happens - speculations.

No, this is logical conclusions based on what we see in the game. 

Human can't survive in the vacuum while equipped with broken environmental suit.

There are no vital critical systems on the Citadel's sheathing. Noone would ever place such things out of armor and barrier protection. Such things can only be placed inside the hidden Citadel core.

Modifié par Seival, 29 novembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Seival wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Seival wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

yeah, Leviathan states that they created the Catalyst, the Catalyst created the Reapers and then had them create the Relay Network. The Citadel is the master relay (and probably the first) The Catalyst existed before the Citadel. The Catalyst is not the Citadel. The Catalyst only resides within it.

I also believe that the Catalyst resides not just within Citadel, but also within each Relay, and each Reaper capital ship... as a hardware. That's why you can't hack or infect it, and need very specific galactic scale explosion to re-write its personality or destroy it.

hmm I'm not sure that's how it works. But its definitely an interesting thought worth speculating.

Seems that people want to believe that the Catalyst "is" the Citadel. When reality, its an individual being.....that just happens to be the central consciousness of the Reapers who resides within the Citadel.

Well, and it's logical for such consciousness to have a lot of backups, located in both mobile and static Reaper platforms. That improves its survivability greatly.

Right. So an AI that built a master station to install itself in wouldn't wire himself up to all the systems. No, that would be too easy. Except the magic elevator he wired himself into just incase some organic happens to pass out in the that one exact spot. Now that's worth wiring yourself to. Screw the nuicance systems like the "REAP / Not REAP" switch. 

WTF is that crap? How do you honestly swallow that garbage?

Do you realize that there was no "magic elevator", "conversation in the vacuum", "control rods", "pillar of light", and "glass tube"? The whole conversation with the Catalyst is mental, I think it's obvious. In that conversation Catalyst just created an "environment" which would look familiar enough to Shapard. The similar thing happened in Overlord, Geth Concensus, and during conversation with the Leviathan...

...And when someone uses mental abilities on you to talk, it doesn't mean he wants to mind-control you. Leviathan proved that.

this is your headcanon - it is neither confirmed, nor declined that the conversation is in sheps head. it is our speculation.

we donrt know what and where it really happens - speculations.

No, this is logical conclusions based on what we see in the game. 

Human can't survive in the vacuum while equipped with broken environmental suit.

There are no vital critical systems on the Citadel's sheathing. Noone would ever place such things out of armor and barrier protection. Such things can only be placed inside the hidden Citadel core.

well . mass effect fields can hold a thin atmosphere - remember manae? ... they used mass effect fields there, to maintain a breathable atmoshpere on the else airless moon.

assumptions on your side - the atmosphere from mass effect fields is backed by lore.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The way the scene is edited is more in favor of the conversations with the catalyst being real. Since the the elevator activates before the white-out happens. Unless you want to believe that in the last 5 minutes of the story, we see our main character taking an elevator ride to nowhere.

And if the scene is a dream, wouldn't the catalyst acknowlegde that? Instead of lying to Shepard and say that he is on the Citadel.

[Seival]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Seival wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Seival wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

yeah, Leviathan states that they created the Catalyst, the Catalyst created the Reapers and then had them create the Relay Network. The Citadel is the master relay (and probably the first) The Catalyst existed before the Citadel. The Catalyst is not the Citadel. The Catalyst only resides within it.

I also believe that the Catalyst resides not just within Citadel, but also within each Relay, and each Reaper capital ship... as a hardware. That's why you can't hack or infect it, and need very specific galactic scale explosion to re-write its personality or destroy it.

hmm I'm not sure that's how it works. But its definitely an interesting thought worth speculating.

Seems that people want to believe that the Catalyst "is" the Citadel. When reality, its an individual being.....that just happens to be the central consciousness of the Reapers who resides within the Citadel.

Well, and it's logical for such consciousness to have a lot of backups, located in both mobile and static Reaper platforms. That improves its survivability greatly.

Right. So an AI that built a master station to install itself in wouldn't wire himself up to all the systems. No, that would be too easy. Except the magic elevator he wired himself into just incase some organic happens to pass out in the that one exact spot. Now that's worth wiring yourself to. Screw the nuicance systems like the "REAP / Not REAP" switch. 

WTF is that crap? How do you honestly swallow that garbage?

Do you realize that there was no "magic elevator", "conversation in the vacuum", "control rods", "pillar of light", and "glass tube"? The whole conversation with the Catalyst is mental, I think it's obvious. In that conversation Catalyst just created an "environment" which would look familiar enough to Shapard. The similar thing happened in Overlord, Geth Concensus, and during conversation with the Leviathan...

...And when someone uses mental abilities on you to talk, it doesn't mean he wants to mind-control you. Leviathan proved that.

this is your headcanon - it is neither confirmed, nor declined that the conversation is in sheps head. it is our speculation.

we donrt know what and where it really happens - speculations.

No, this is logical conclusions based on what we see in the game. 

Human can't survive in the vacuum while equipped with broken environmental suit.

There are no vital critical systems on the Citadel's sheathing. Noone would ever place such things out of armor and barrier protection. Such things can only be placed inside the hidden Citadel core.

well . mass effect fields can hold a thin atmosphere - remember manae? ... they used mass effect fields there, to maintain a breathable atmoshpere on the else airless moon.

assumptions on your side - the atmosphere from mass effect fields is backed by lore.

Citadel Tower can't hold atmosphere on its outer surface. Remember ME1? "Gear up! We going out!" (after elevator stopped). And that what was set in stone. Without working environmental suit Shepard can't survive there. So conversation with the Catalyst can only be mental.

Modifié par Seival, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:26 .

[KwangtungTiger]

Seems like seival has more in common with the indoctrination theory than he likes to let on ( whole conversation being mental ).

Problem here is if the conversation was completely mental than the 3 choices givin make no sense. All 3 of them needed a physical activation to work ie...

Destroy = shooting tube
Control = grabbing the rods being uploaded so to speak
Synthesis = jumping in and having dna distributed to cosmos ( this one is really screwed in this scenario cause it cant happen any other way )

All of this being true means shepard was physically on that platform and face to face with starbrat if you dont believe in IT. ( Are you sure your not an IT believer? )

[Applepie_Svk]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seems like seival has more in common with the indoctrination theory than he likes to let on ( whole conversation being mental ).

Problem here is if the conversation was completely mental than the 3 choices givin make no sense. All 3 of them needed a physical activation to work ie...

Destroy = shooting tube
Control = grabbing the rods being uploaded so to speak
Synthesis = jumping in and having dna distributed to cosmos ( this one is really screwed in this scenario cause it cant happen any other way )

All of this being true means shepard was physically on that platform and face to face with starbrat if you dont believe in IT. ( Are you sure your not an IT believer? )

Hi is literal supporter... and love homogenization and totalitarianism...

[KwangtungTiger]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seems like seival has more in common with the indoctrination theory than he likes to let on ( whole conversation being mental ).

Problem here is if the conversation was completely mental than the 3 choices givin make no sense. All 3 of them needed a physical activation to work ie...

Destroy = shooting tube
Control = grabbing the rods being uploaded so to speak
Synthesis = jumping in and having dna distributed to cosmos ( this one is really screwed in this scenario cause it cant happen any other way )

All of this being true means shepard was physically on that platform and face to face with starbrat if you dont believe in IT. ( Are you sure your not an IT believer? )

Hi is literal supporter... and love homogenization and totalitarianism...

No doubt 

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seems like seival has more in common with the indoctrination theory than he likes to let on ( whole conversation being mental ).

Problem here is if the conversation was completely mental than the 3 choices givin make no sense. All 3 of them needed a physical activation to work ie...

Destroy = shooting tube
Control = grabbing the rods being uploaded so to speak
Synthesis = jumping in and having dna distributed to cosmos ( this one is really screwed in this scenario cause it cant happen any other way )

All of this being true means shepard was physically on that platform and face to face with starbrat if you dont believe in IT. ( Are you sure your not an IT believer? )

Like I already said, if someone talks to you using mental abilities, it doesn't mean he wants to mind control you. Remember Leviathan? It talked to Shepard. Shepard convinced it to let her go, and it let her go. But it could force her to stay, and Shepard didn't have power to resist that. Even Reaper capital Ships can't resist Leviathan abilities.

The final situation is completely under the Catalyst control, and it's obvious that the Catalyst helps Shepard willingly. It could just let Shepard to die, but instead it introduced itself, admitted that Cycled Harvests are only good as temporary solution, and offered Shepard to find a new solution together.

"Control rods", "Pillar of light", and "Glass tube" are just mental representation of Shepard's choice, which only the Catalyst can make happen. For example, by touching "Control rods" Shepard tells Catalyst "I choose Control, initiate it", and the Catalyst initiates it. Shepard can't apply new solution without the Catalyst, and the Catalyst can't apply new solution without Shepard. They have to cooperate in the end, even through both of them don't really like the idea.

[KwangtungTiger]

I never said to mind control you. Only that you think the entire conversation was mental which is a part of the IT. And if it is all mental then how does shepards dna get to the beam to initiate synthesis?

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

I never said to mind control you. Only that you think the entire conversation was mental which is a part of the IT. And if it is all mental then how does shepards dna get to the beam to initiate synthesis?

The Catalyst obviously has some ways to deliver Shepard's genetic material in proper form to the Crucible-Citadel tandem. We don't need to know its exact mechanics.

Mental conversation is not a part of IT, it's a part of the game...

...IT is just a collection of game bugs and misguided interpretations. ITers support primitive Destroy-only ending, and impose their insane fan-fiction upon others.

Modifié par Seival, 30 novembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

I never said to mind control you. Only that you think the entire conversation was mental which is a part of the IT. And if it is all mental then how does shepards dna get to the beam to initiate synthesis?

The Catalyst obviously has some ways to deliver Shepard's genetic material in proper form to the Crucible-Citadel tandem. We don't need to know its exact mechanics.

Mental conversation is not a part of IT, it's a part of the game...

...IT is just a collection of game bugs and misguided interpretations. ITers support primitive Destroy-only ending, and impose their insane fan-fiction upon others.

Yes, but if shep is physically down on earth, and the starbrat is on the citadel, shepard's physical DNA isn't actually there to do anything. If he's making the mental choice "jump in the beam", it still fails because shep's body isn't really there. Catalyst can't have sheps DNA without his physical shell.

The same with control. If he isn't actually vaporized, then that means shepard is still alive down on earth in a pile of bricks. He never physically touched starbrat's rod, so he was never vaped, so he's still alive.

The fact of the matter is he was thrown in haphazardly and the entire trilogy suffers as a result.

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

I never said to mind control you. Only that you think the entire conversation was mental which is a part of the IT. And if it is all mental then how does shepards dna get to the beam to initiate synthesis?

The Catalyst obviously has some ways to deliver Shepard's genetic material in proper form to the Crucible-Citadel tandem. We don't need to know its exact mechanics.

Mental conversation is not a part of IT, it's a part of the game...

...IT is just a collection of game bugs and misguided interpretations. ITers support primitive Destroy-only ending, and impose their insane fan-fiction upon others.

I dont believe in IT myself but everything you just stated above has no facts to support it in game and is just as much fan-fiction ( head canon if you prefer ). As for the catalyst being able to get the dna, it couldnt even close the arms on the citidal in the first mass effect. How is it supposed to do something as complex as genetic material dispersal through mental stimulation:huh:

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 30 novembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

they didn't. this gmae has the most number of retcons ever.

[Dr_Extrem]

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Dr_Extrem wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Dr_Extrem wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]jkflipflopDAO wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

yeah, Leviathan states that they created the Catalyst, the Catalyst created the Reapers and then had them create the Relay Network. The Citadel is the master relay (and probably the first) The Catalyst existed before the Citadel. The Catalyst is not the Citadel. The Catalyst only resides within it.[/quote]

I also believe that the Catalyst resides not just within Citadel, but also within each Relay, and each Reaper capital ship... as a hardware. That's why you can't hack or infect it, and need very specific galactic scale explosion to re-write its personality or destroy it.[/quote] hmm I'm not sure that's how it works. But its definitely an interesting thought worth speculating.

Seems that people want to believe that the Catalyst "is" the Citadel. When reality, its an individual being.....that just happens to be the central consciousness of the Reapers who resides within the Citadel.[/quote]

Well, and it's logical for such consciousness to have a lot of backups, located in both mobile and static Reaper platforms. That improves its survivability greatly.

[/quote]

Right. So an AI that built a master station to install itself in wouldn't wire himself up to all the systems. No, that would be too easy. Except the magic elevator he wired himself into just incase some organic happens to pass out in the that one exact spot. Now that's worth wiring yourself to. Screw the nuicance systems like the "REAP / Not REAP" switch. 

WTF is that crap? How do you honestly swallow that garbage?

[/quote]

Do you realize that there was no "magic elevator", "conversation in the vacuum", "control rods", "pillar of light", and "glass tube"? The whole conversation with the Catalyst is mental, I think it's obvious. In that conversation Catalyst just created an "environment" which would look familiar enough to Shapard. The similar thing happened in Overlord, Geth Concensus, and during conversation with the Leviathan...

...And when someone uses mental abilities on you to talk, it doesn't mean he wants to mind-control you. Leviathan proved that.[/quote]

this is your headcanon - it is neither confirmed, nor declined that the conversation is in sheps head. it is our speculation.

we donrt know what and where it really happens - speculations. [/quote]

No, this is logical conclusions based on what we see in the game. 

Human can't survive in the vacuum while equipped with broken environmental suit.

There are no vital critical systems on the Citadel's sheathing. Noone would ever place such things out of armor and barrier protection. Such things can only be placed inside the hidden Citadel core.[/quote]


well . mass effect fields can hold a thin atmosphere - remember manae? ... they used mass effect fields there, to maintain a breathable atmoshpere on the else airless moon.

assumptions on your side - the atmosphere from mass effect fields is backed by lore.[/quote]

Citadel Tower can't hold atmosphere on its outer surface. Remember ME1? "Gear up! We going out!" (after elevator stopped). And that what was set in stone. Without working environmental suit Shepard can't survive there. So conversation with the Catalyst can only be mental.
[/quote]

for the last time:

[quote] from the mass effect wiki

Palaven's largest moon has been shrouded in secrecy since the dawn of the turian space age. During the Krogan Rebellions, the Hierarchy classified nearly all data on Menae, and its sister moon Nanus, because they feared the krogan could use the moons as weapons by smashing them into Palaven's surface. However, some information has leaked out. Images of turian bases where personnel walk without enviro-suits indicate advanced infrastructure--likely a network of subterranean tunnels with powerful mass effect field generators that retain heat and atmosphere over swaths of the surface.
The Reapers' plans for bombarding the bases were met with fierce resistance by the turian fleet and the moon's anti-aerospace defenses. With their easy victory stalled, the Reapers deployed a variety of ground units to take the bases one at a time.
The turians are the superior force, but the Reapers have the patience to slowly grind them down. With every base captured, the Reapers deny the turian fleet another place to repair or refuel.
[/quote]

it is possible to retain heat and atmosphere with the use of mass effect generators.

how do weight forces work on the citadel:
- arms and presidium ring - centrifugal force - you are "pressed" onto the ground - this is a weight force
- citadel tower and the disc where the crucible docks - mass effect fields who cause gravity through mass

it is entirely possible to produce a mass effect field strong enough to maintain a breathable atmosphere under there conditions.


but it does not change my opinion, that the whole discussion (wherever it happens), is illogical, lore breaking and plot killing.

[Seival]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

for the last time:

from the mass effect wiki

Palaven's largest moon has been shrouded in secrecy since the dawn of the turian space age. During the Krogan Rebellions, the Hierarchy classified nearly all data on Menae, and its sister moon Nanus, because they feared the krogan could use the moons as weapons by smashing them into Palaven's surface. However, some information has leaked out. Images of turian bases where personnel walk without enviro-suits indicate advanced infrastructure--likely a network of subterranean tunnels with powerful mass effect field generators that retain heat and atmosphere over swaths of the surface.
The Reapers' plans for bombarding the bases were met with fierce resistance by the turian fleet and the moon's anti-aerospace defenses. With their easy victory stalled, the Reapers deployed a variety of ground units to take the bases one at a time.
The turians are the superior force, but the Reapers have the patience to slowly grind them down. With every base captured, the Reapers deny the turian fleet another place to repair or refuel.

it is possible to retain heat and atmosphere with the use of mass effect generators.

how do weight forces work on the citadel:
- arms and presidium ring - centrifugal force - you are "pressed" onto the ground - this is a weight force
- citadel tower and the disc where the crucible docks - mass effect fields who cause gravity through mass

it is entirely possible to produce a mass effect field strong enough to maintain a breathable atmosphere under there conditions.


but it does not change my opinion, that the whole discussion (wherever it happens), is illogical, lore breaking and plot killing.

Citadel Tower ME1

Watch carefully from 470s. No atmosphere. Shepard had to put on his helmet before quit the elevator. All krogan enemies were equipped with full environmental suits/helmets. Only geth don't wear anything for obvious reasons.

Citadel Tower outer surface can't hold the atmosphere (only Arms and Ring can do so). And if you remember conversation with the Catalyst well enough, then you know that its environment is based on Citadel Tower outer surface. If you look "above", you will see the Crucible.

This is more than enough to say that conversation with the Catalyst is mental. And if you explore the environment further, you will notice that the whole environment is actually a giant dialogue wheel (if we look at that environment from above) with Control as Paragon option, Synthesis as Neutral option, Destroy as Renegade option, and the Catalyst as "investigate"... Well, and of course noone would ever place vital station systems in unprotected places were anyone can find and destroy them.

Conversation with the Catalyst and conversation with the Leviathan are very similar. Both want to talk to you, both can only do that by mental communication abilities (Catalyst can use holograms and talk through the Reapers, but that was not an option in that particular situation), and both have no intentions to harm or control you.

Modifié par Seival, 30 novembre 2012 - 08:54 .

[cyrexwingblade]

Seival wrote...

Conversation with the Catalyst and conversation with the Leviathan are very similar. Both want to talk to you, both can only do that by mental communication abilities, and both have no intentions to harm or control you.

Who what in the where now?

1) The citadel was badly damaged during the finish of ME1. It's entirely possible the ME fields needed to keep it breathable (if ever) were down. You can't be totally sure one way or the other on that issue.

2) The structure of the Catalyst sequence shows physical, audio communication. There may be psychological going on as well, indoctrination abounds, but the meta-story structure is a physical interaction with a hologram. Without headcannon, you can't be certain of what's mental vs. physical in that scene.

3) Leviathan was actively preassuring Shepard's mind during their conversation. The bloody nose comes from resisting influence, not just the tax of talking mentally. This is established through the Leviathon development plot. Only those who tried to resist direct control started bleeding.

We argued with Leviathan and were pursasive enough. They very much intended to kill/control us right up to the finish. And mostly because the Reapers were already on their door.

[Dr_Extrem]

i am tired of your inability to understand.

mass effect fields are able to keep an atmosphere. there is gravity (coming from mass effect fields) and air. they can be the result of me generators.

the part of the citadel you mentioned, has no gravity - shepard uses magnetic boots to stay on the ground. this takes part in a totally different part of the citadel tower (who itself has gravity due to me generators).


your headcanon is not canon - as much as you want it, there is no canon and it is open to suggestion where this lorebreaking, illogical and plot breaking nonsense (starchild scene) takes place.

no intentions to harm and control me ... i guess the beam from harbinger was a tragic mistake - friendly fire even ...  my bad.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 30 novembre 2012 - 09:02 .

[Applepie_Svk]

cyrexwingblade wrote...

Seival wrote...

Conversation with the Catalyst and conversation with the Leviathan are very similar. Both want to talk to you, both can only do that by mental communication abilities, and both have no intentions to harm or control you.

Who what in the where now?

1) The citadel was badly damaged during the finish of ME1. It's entirely possible the ME fields needed to keep it breathable (if ever) were down. You can't be totally sure one way or the other on that issue.

2) The structure of the Catalyst sequence shows physical, audio communication. There may be psychological going on as well, indoctrination abounds, but the meta-story structure is a physical interaction with a hologram. Without headcannon, you can't be certain of what's mental vs. physical in that scene.

3) Leviathan was actively preassuring Shepard's mind during their conversation. The bloody nose comes from resisting influence, not just the tax of talking mentally. This is established through the Leviathon development plot. Only those who tried to resist direct control started bleeding.

We argued with Leviathan and were pursasive enough. They very much intended to kill/control us right up to the finish. And mostly because the Reapers were already on their door.

Symbolism, symbolism everywhere bro...

[Seival]

cyrexwingblade wrote...

Seival wrote...

Conversation with the Catalyst and conversation with the Leviathan are very similar. Both want to talk to you, both can only do that by mental communication abilities, and both have no intentions to harm or control you.

Who what in the where now?

1) The citadel was badly damaged during the finish of ME1. It's entirely possible the ME fields needed to keep it breathable (if ever) were down. You can't be totally sure one way or the other on that issue.

2) The structure of the Catalyst sequence shows physical, audio communication. There may be psychological going on as well, indoctrination abounds, but the meta-story structure is a physical interaction with a hologram. Without headcannon, you can't be certain of what's mental vs. physical in that scene.

3) Leviathan was actively preassuring Shepard's mind during their conversation. The bloody nose comes from resisting influence, not just the tax of talking mentally. This is established through the Leviathon development plot. Only those who tried to resist direct control started bleeding.

We argued with Leviathan and were pursasive enough. They very much intended to kill/control us right up to the finish. And mostly because the Reapers were already on their door.

(1) Only Citadel Tower has sealed elevators and hatches, other Citadel places do not. Why? Because Citadel Tower can only hold atmosphere inside it, and cannot do so on its outer surface.

(2) Both Leviathan and the Catalyst created a "mental environment" that would look familiar enough to Shepard.

(3) Leviathan had enough chances to kill Shepard after she arrived on the planet were it hides. Mind Blast it used can kill a Reaper capital ship or at least completely disable it. Leviathan could provoke a crash that Normandy's shuttle wouldn't survive. Also, Leviathan could kill Shepard inside that mech even without mental abilities.

For both Catalyst and Leviathan Shepard was worth talking to. Not just after they knew about her, but after she proved that she is worth talking to of course.

Modifié par Seival, 30 novembre 2012 - 09:25 .

[Steelcan]

If the conversation was mental why would the Catalyst even offer Destroy? He thinks it is a terrible idea, and if Shepard does pick it he dies. Why offer it in the first place?

And Casey Hudson has confirmed that a force field keeps the decision chamber habitable.

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

cyrexwingblade wrote...

Seival wrote...

Conversation with the Catalyst and conversation with the Leviathan are very similar. Both want to talk to you, both can only do that by mental communication abilities, and both have no intentions to harm or control you.

Who what in the where now?

1) The citadel was badly damaged during the finish of ME1. It's entirely possible the ME fields needed to keep it breathable (if ever) were down. You can't be totally sure one way or the other on that issue.

2) The structure of the Catalyst sequence shows physical, audio communication. There may be psychological going on as well, indoctrination abounds, but the meta-story structure is a physical interaction with a hologram. Without headcannon, you can't be certain of what's mental vs. physical in that scene.

3) Leviathan was actively preassuring Shepard's mind during their conversation. The bloody nose comes from resisting influence, not just the tax of talking mentally. This is established through the Leviathon development plot. Only those who tried to resist direct control started bleeding.

We argued with Leviathan and were pursasive enough. They very much intended to kill/control us right up to the finish. And mostly because the Reapers were already on their door.

(1) Only Citadel Tower has sealed elevators and hatches, other Citadel places do not. Why? Because Citadel Tower can only hold atmosphere inside it, and cannot do so on its outer surface.

(2) Both Leviathan and the Catalyst created a "mental environment" that would look familiar enough to Shepard.

(3) Leviathan had enough chances to kill Shepard after she arrived on the planet were it hides. Mind Blast it used can kill a Reaper capital ship or at least completely disable it. Leviathan could provoke a crash that Normandy's shuttle wouldn't survive. Also, Leviathan could kill Shepard inside that mech even without mental abilities.

For both Catalyst and Leviathan Shepard was worth talking to. Not just after they knew about her, but after she proved that she is worth talking to of course.

This is the same type of argument you use against ITers. Everyting you have said here is purely conjecture. No dev, writer or in game index has proven this at all.

This is merely headcanon. ( Which there is nothing wrong with just that you state as facts without proof )

[Seival]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

I never said to mind control you. Only that you think the entire conversation was mental which is a part of the IT. And if it is all mental then how does shepards dna get to the beam to initiate synthesis?

The Catalyst obviously has some ways to deliver Shepard's genetic material in proper form to the Crucible-Citadel tandem. We don't need to know its exact mechanics.

Mental conversation is not a part of IT, it's a part of the game...

...IT is just a collection of game bugs and misguided interpretations. ITers support primitive Destroy-only ending, and impose their insane fan-fiction upon others.

Yes, but if shep is physically down on earth, and the starbrat is on the citadel, shepard's physical DNA isn't actually there to do anything. If he's making the mental choice "jump in the beam", it still fails because shep's body isn't really there. Catalyst can't have sheps DNA without his physical shell.

The same with control. If he isn't actually vaporized, then that means shepard is still alive down on earth in a pile of bricks. He never physically touched starbrat's rod, so he was never vaped, so he's still alive.

The fact of the matter is he was thrown in haphazardly and the entire trilogy suffers as a result.

On the Earth? Of course not. Mental conversation with the Catalyst obviously starts with so called "magic elevator" scene. Shepard lies near dead Anderson. She lost consciousness, so the Catalyst couldn't talk to her using more simple ways even if it had proper hologram device or hask in that room...

...Mind control was attempted by TIM, and that attempt has failed. This is obviously the only indoctrination involvement in the end. The rest is cooperating with the Catalyst to end the Cycles forever... Or refusing to cooperate which causes defeat.

Modifié par Seival, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

If the conversation was mental why would the Catalyst even offer Destroy? He thinks it is a terrible idea, and if Shepard does pick it he dies. Why offer it in the first place?

And Casey Hudson has confirmed that a force field keeps the decision chamber habitable.

That is one of the questions that tears the entire IT apart, which is always good



...But in case of healthy analisis the answer is obvious:

(1) The Intelligence finally found what it was looking for, so the Cycled Harvests (which were temporary solution) can be stopped. All Catalyst needs is Shepard's desire to help.

(2) Control means that Catalyst now thinks like Shepard, and have all her memories in addition to its own experience. Shepard-Catalyst will continue to solve the organic-vs-synthetic problem, but will not use Cycled Harvests for that. I think that Catalsyt-Shepard will perform Synthesis eventually anyway.

(3) Destroy =/= destroying the Reapers forever. The entire worlds will be full of dead Reaper bodies. Leviathans are still out there, so they will resurrect the Catalyst and the Reapers eventually. Why? Because the organic-vs-synthetic problem wasn't solved. So, basically Destroy is just a huge delay (provided by a lot of casualties) to the Synthesis.

(4) AIs have no fear, and possibility of death don't bother them. They just follow their code. They have self-preservation code of course, but they can sacrifice themselves easily if really needed.

...I suppose that all roads in Mass Effect Universe lead to the inevitable Synthesis. You just can choose the way how to delay it, or not to delay it at all. I prefer to delay it with Control, because Controlled Synthesis can provide much better results than uncontrolled one.

Modifié par Seival, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[Steelcan]

But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.