474 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

Steelcan wrote...

But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.

after rannoch, there is no problem - the geth are either dead or allies (even if you let them butcher the quarians) - problem solved and the side plot "organics vs. synthetics" is concluded and finished.

it was lame to reanimate something that was already finished.

[Eterna]

Everyone is so mean to Seival.

[Steelcan]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.

after rannoch, there is no problem - the geth are either dead or allies (even if you let them butcher the quarians) - problem solved and the side plot "organics vs. synthetics" is concluded and finished.

it was lame to reanimate something that was already finished.

. That too.

[Steelcan]

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone is so mean to Seival.

. I asked a reasonable question, how was that mean?

[Dr_Extrem]

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone is so mean to Seival.

. I asked a reasonable question, how was that mean?

asking seival a reasonable question, is like running into a wall. after some time, you realise, that it is not the best idea and leads to nothing but headaches.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:36 .

[AlanC9]

Seival wrote...
On the Earth? Of course not. Mental conversation with the Catalyst obviously starts with so called "magic elevator" scene. Shepard lies near dead Anderson. She lost consciousness, so the Catalyst couldn't talk to her using more simple ways even if it had proper hologram device or hask in that room...

You probably shouldn't toss around terms like "obviously " so casually. That's the sort of arrogance that ruined the IT believers' reputation.

Though I like your idea. It gets around a couple of obvious flaws in the ending, like the ludicrous triggering mechanism for Destroy.

[Steelcan]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone is so mean to Seival.

. I asked a reasonable question, how was that mean?

asking seival a reasonable question, is like running into a wall. after some time, you realise, that it is not the best idea and leads to nothing but headaches.

. There's that as well

[Steelcan]

AlanC9 wrote...

Seival wrote...
On the Earth? Of course not. Mental conversation with the Catalyst obviously starts with so called "magic elevator" scene. Shepard lies near dead Anderson. She lost consciousness, so the Catalyst couldn't talk to her using more simple ways even if it had proper hologram device or hask in that room...

You probably shouldn't toss around terms like "obviously " so casually. That's the sort of arrogance that ruined the IT believers' reputation.

Though I like your idea. It gets around a couple of obvious flaws in the ending, like the ludicrous triggering mechanism for Destroy.

. I saw an excellent explanation for this in a thread I can't find anymore.  

[AlanC9]

Steelcan wrote...

But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.

Note that this is a pretty lousy sample size, so it doesn't prove all that much. The Catalyst's case was always that the limits to AI development are higher than the limits to organic development, so if they get past a certain stage in development they're unstoppable. Like a builder faction in a 4x game; the Believers stomping the University in SMAC doesn't prove that the Believers are a stronger faction, just that they got at the University  before their superior research gave them superiority.

(Actually, that's not a great example, since the builder factions are relatively weak in SMAC)

[Steelcan]

AlanC9 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.

Note that this is a pretty lousy sample size, so it doesn't prove all that much. The Catalyst's case was always that the limits to AI development are higher than the limits to organic development, so if they get past a certain stage in development they're unstoppable. Like a builder faction in a 4x game; the Believers stomping the University in SMAC doesn't prove that the Believers are a stronger faction, just that they got at the University  before their superior research gave them superiority.

(Actually, that's not a great example, since the builder factions are relatively weak in SMAC)

. Then the Catalyst should back himself up with evidence, he doesn't, therefore I am assuming he is full of it based on my own experiences.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Eterna5 wrote...

Everyone is so mean to Seival.

I think if BSN had an approval raiting, Seival's would be under -9,000.

[AlanC9]

Steelcan wrote...
 Then the Catalyst should back himself up with evidence, he doesn't, therefore I am assuming he is full of it based on my own experiences.

Oh, I didn't mean to say he was right or anything; I always figured that he was full of it too. It's just that you can't prove him wrong with evidence. The Reapers haven't let a cycle go on long enough to prove if they're right or not.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[Dr_Extrem]

AlanC9 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.

Note that this is a pretty lousy sample size, so it doesn't prove all that much. The Catalyst's case was always that the limits to AI development are higher than the limits to organic development, so if they get past a certain stage in development they're unstoppable. Like a builder faction in a 4x game; the Believers stomping the University in SMAC doesn't prove that the Believers are a stronger faction, just that they got at the University  before their superior research gave them superiority.

(Actually, that's not a great example, since the builder factions are relatively weak in SMAC)

even if it only applies to our cycle, the starchild could take this into consideration and spare our cycle. it could just gtfo and come back in 50k years - if we are stil around, we were right - if we got whiped out, it missed a misserable society not worth to be preserved.

and yes you are right - arguing with an insane ai might not work. - can we just delete its files or something ... /format c

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[Seival]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.

after rannoch, there is no problem - the geth are either dead or allies (even if you let them butcher the quarians) - problem solved and the side plot "organics vs. synthetics" is concluded and finished.

it was lame to reanimate something that was already finished.

No alliance can exist forever. According to the Catalyst it tried solution similar to Rannoch Peace several times before. There was a peace for some time, but then... Well, like I said before - without permanent solutions history just loves to repeat itself. People are really fast about forgeting previous mistakes and what lessons those mistakes teached them...

...Believe me, Quarians and the Geth will become enemies again sooner or later, because organics and synthetics are too different entities. They are alien to each other, and only Synthesis can fix that forever.

[Steelcan]

They won't be enemies again, the geth are dead.

[Dr_Extrem]

Seival wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.

after rannoch, there is no problem - the geth are either dead or allies (even if you let them butcher the quarians) - problem solved and the side plot "organics vs. synthetics" is concluded and finished.

it was lame to reanimate something that was already finished.

No alliance can exist forever. According to the Catalyst it tried solution similar to Rannoch Peace several times before. There was a peace for some time, but then... Well, like I said before - without permanent solutions history just loves to repeat itself. People are really fast about forgeting previous mistakes and what lessons those mistakes teached them...

...Believe me, Quarians and the Geth will become enemies again sooner or later, because organics and synthetics are too different entities. They are alien to each other, and only Synthesis can fix that forever.

there is the problem - according to the catalyst. the thing that ordered harbinger to shoot at you not long ago. dealing in absolutes is a sign of insanity.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

They won't be enemies again, the geth are dead.

In that case people will create new synthetics later, and the cycle begin again. It will cost galaxy few more habitable worlds that will be turned into completely lifeless stones by the conflicts... Organics may win, but later they will create synthetics again, and history will repeat itself... Few more lifeless stones...

...Leviathans noticed the trend and become to worry about the entire galaxy. Organic-vs-synthetic problem is a desease that slowly destorys the whole life. That's why Leviathans created the Intelligence with mandate to preserve the life at any cost. And that Intelligence logic makes sense - life is much more important than lives. Cycled Harvests solution worked quite effectively, but as the Intelligence admitted itself - that was only the best of all possible temporary solutions. Without permanent solution problem will never be solved forever. And the only permanent solution is Synthesis.

Modifié par Seival, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:23 .

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

They won't be enemies again, the geth are dead.

In that case people will create new synthetics later, and the cycle begin again. It will cost galaxy few more habitable worlds that will be turned into completely lifeless stones by the conflicts... Organics may win, but later they will create synthetics again, and history will repeat itself... Few more lifeless stones...

...Leviathans noticed the trend and become to worry about the entire galaxy. Organic-vs-synthetic problem is a desease that slowly destorys the whole life. That's why Leviathans created the Intelligence with mandate to preserve the life at any cost. And that Intelligence logic makes sense - life is much more important than lives. Cycled Harvests solution worked quite effectively, but as the Intelligence admitted itself - that was only the best of all possible temporary solutions. Without permanent solution problem will never be solved forever. And the only permanent solution is Synthesis.

This doesn't matter even in the slightest compared to what organics have done to each other in the me universe. The geth were going to be destroyed by the quarians without shepards intervention.  It seems like its assumed that synthetics are always going to win against organics and this simply isn't true.

Not to mention the fact that people think with synthesis there's not going to be conflict ( Rainbows and Unicorns ). That and you didn't answer my prior question about how the genetic material is supposed to be distributed if everthing is mental ( very complex ) and the star brat couldn't even close/activate the citadel in me1 ( very simple ).

[fiendishchicken]

Sorry OP, but I think that's a bunch of bull****.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

No, because if they did Sovereign wouldn't have needed Saren to open the Citadel and the Citadel relay would've been opened because there's a freakin' AI in the Citadel's systems!

Again, the catalyst has no direct connection to the citadel.

[dreman9999]

Steelcan wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But that assumes there is an organic/synthetic problem. The main reason I blew the little bastard to hell is that I think he is full of it. Organics are not doomed to be destroyed by synthetics.

Ignoring the quarian/geth conflict resolution because that hasn't stood for any length of time, just looking at the geth before they allied with the reapers, and Javik's information on the Metacon war and the zha'til it is synthetics that are doomed to organics.

Note that this is a pretty lousy sample size, so it doesn't prove all that much. The Catalyst's case was always that the limits to AI development are higher than the limits to organic development, so if they get past a certain stage in development they're unstoppable. Like a builder faction in a 4x game; the Believers stomping the University in SMAC doesn't prove that the Believers are a stronger faction, just that they got at the University  before their superior research gave them superiority.

(Actually, that's not a great example, since the builder factions are relatively weak in SMAC)

. Then the Catalyst should back himself up with evidence, he doesn't, therefore I am assuming he is full of it based on my own experiences.

The catalystis only doing this because it 's programmed to.

Modifié par dreman9999, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

They won't be enemies again, the geth are dead.

In that case people will create new synthetics later, and the cycle begin again. It will cost galaxy few more habitable worlds that will be turned into completely lifeless stones by the conflicts... Organics may win, but later they will create synthetics again, and history will repeat itself... Few more lifeless stones...

...Leviathans noticed the trend and become to worry about the entire galaxy. Organic-vs-synthetic problem is a desease that slowly destorys the whole life. That's why Leviathans created the Intelligence with mandate to preserve the life at any cost. And that Intelligence logic makes sense - life is much more important than lives. Cycled Harvests solution worked quite effectively, but as the Intelligence admitted itself - that was only the best of all possible temporary solutions. Without permanent solution problem will never be solved forever. And the only permanent solution is Synthesis.

This doesn't matter even in the slightest compared to what organics have done to each other in the me universe. The geth were going to be destroyed by the quarians without shepards intervention.  It seems like its assumed that synthetics are always going to win against organics and this simply isn't true.

Not to mention the fact that people think with synthesis there's not going to be conflict ( Rainbows and Unicorns ). That and you didn't answer my prior question about how the genetic material is supposed to be distributed if everthing is mental ( very complex ) and the star brat couldn't even close/activate the citadel in me1 ( very simple ).

Last time I checked, it were Quarians who barely survived and had to abandon their homeworld for 300 years. The entire race has almost disappeared because of organic-vs-synthetic conflict. And it doesn't matter who exactly started the war. Someone always starts them. And that was only beginning. Much worse things could happen but Reapers invasion prevented that.

Reapers do not destroy the entire worlds. They harvest current galactic civilization and make sure the new one will arise later. And all harvested people (both organics and synthetics) were not actually lost forever, but rather transformed into something greater.

Yes, organic-vs-organic conflict can also be devastating (let's not forget what happened on Tuchanka for example), and this is also the part of the problem. But organic-vs-synthetic conflict raise the problem to the whole new level of devastation. Two extremely alien entities, and one of them can evolve much faster and is much more durable then the other... A lot of dead worlds as a result... Without the Reapers sooner or later the entire galaxy would be ruined, and no organic life would ever appear in it again. And remaining synthetics can go and devastate some other galaxy... Just out of curiosity...

...Artificial peace sustaining, AI research prohibition, regular destruction of all synthetics, creating borders, attempts to tolerate each other,... all of this and anything similar can't last forever. So, Synthesis is the only answer. The question is "sooner or later?".

Modifié par Seival, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:24 .

[KwangtungTiger]

Still doesn't stop the conflict between both sides. Whoever has the most resources will still advance at a faster rate than the other. Synthesis doesn't solve this problem.

The quarians were caught off guard by the collective knowledge of the geth during the first war. In me3 they were taking care of the geth quite easily.
 
As for synthetics both past and present....
Geth = destroyed in my play through by me and quarians
Zha'til = destroyed by the protheans

Moral of this story is that synthetics aren't as big and bad as the starchild makes them out to be.

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:43 .

[Applepie_Svk]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Still doesn't stop the conflict between both sides. Whoever has the most resources will still advance at a faster rate than the other. Synthesis doesn't solve this problem.

The quarians were caught off guard by the collective knowledge of the geth during the first war. In me3 they were taking care of the geth quite easily.
 
As for synthetics both past and present....
Geth = destroyed in my play through by me and quarians
Zha'til = destroyed by the protheans

Moral of this story is that synthetics aren't as big and bad as the starchild makes them out to be.

Joke is that both Zha´til and Geth´s Heretics were forced to conflict after the arrival of Reapers.

Geths were divided into the two fractions which one want to serve Reapers and Zha´til were turned against own creators by Reaper intervention just to be tools for Reapers 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 01 décembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

No, because if they did Sovereign wouldn't have needed Saren to open the Citadel and the Citadel relay would've been opened because there's a freakin' AI in the Citadel's systems!

Again, the catalyst has no direct connection to the citadel.

headcanon ... there is no evidence, that the catalyst has no control over the citadel.

well .. there are answers to questions, that might prove you wrong.


the citadel command center is not accessable to anyone, but the keapers. it controls navigation and life support.

- how was the citadel moved to earth, if nothing can enter the control room? the keepers do not listen to the reapers anymore.
- how can the ward arms be closed, if the catalyst has no control over the station? indoctrinated inhabitants?
- why did it not act before?


the catalyst is just a lore and continuity breaking mistake.