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[Applepie_Svk]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the citadel command center is not accessable to anyone, but the keapers. it controls navigation and life support.

- how was the citadel moved to earth, if nothing can enter the control room? the keepers do not listen to the reapers anymore.
- how can the ward arms be closed, if the catalyst has no control over the station? indoctrinated inhabitants?
- why did it not act before?


the catalyst is just a lore and continuity breaking mistake.

You know what is funny ? It was told by lore that prothean sabotage managed to freed Keepers from Reaper influence - and even despite that they were tailored by Reapers themselves, they were evolving for 50 thousand years yet they serve only to signal of Citadel as maintance unit. If they were serving only to Citadel then they should obey also to Catalyst because he said it´s his home - is the Catalyst some crippled AI lying on the Citadel unaware of what´s going on around ? IS he so crippled that he can´t use even Keepers which is directly serving to Citadel systems ?

That´s doesn´t make a sense... yet the Keepers are in the end serving as processing units helping proces all the bodies abord the entrance.´This simply doesn´t make a sesne untill it´s all just a fiction...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 01 décembre 2012 - 04:54 .

[Taboo]

I'm not entirely sure what I just witnessed but I'm going to have to say no.

Seriously.

NO.

[Dr_Extrem]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the citadel command center is not accessable to anyone, but the keapers. it controls navigation and life support.

- how was the citadel moved to earth, if nothing can enter the control room? the keepers do not listen to the reapers anymore.
- how can the ward arms be closed, if the catalyst has no control over the station? indoctrinated inhabitants?
- why did it not act before?


the catalyst is just a lore and continuity breaking mistake.

You know what is funny ? It was told by lore that prothean sabotage managed to freed Keepers from Reaper influence - and even despite that they were tailored by Keepers themselves, they were evolving for 50 thousand years yet they serve only to signal of Citadel as maintance unit. If they were serving only to Citadel then they should obey also to Catalyst because he said it´s his home - is the Catalyst some crippled AI lying on the Citadel unaware of what´s going on around ? IS he so crippled that he can´t use even Keepers which is directly serving to Citadel systems ?

That´s doesn´t make a sense... yet the Keepers are in the end serving as processing units helping proces all the bodies abord the entrance.´This simply doesn´t make a sesne untill it´s all just a fiction...

thats the problem with the endings, priority london and the catalyst - they do not make any sense.

the keepers do not listen to the reapers anymore - but they are processing humans in the hallway - or are they just "tidying up"? ..
if the catalyst has no power over the station and the keepers do not listen anymore, how is the sation moved - only the keepers can enter the control room
if reaper forces (mindless husks) can enter the room, how do they do that? the catalyst is able to control reaper forces throughout the galaxy but is unable to control the citadel, wich was build by the reapers?

retcons? flaws? plotholes? or all in one?


the last missions do not make sense but the catalyst jumps the shark. its like the writers threw the codex, lore and manual (RTFM) out of the window all together with common sense. 

you can explain the moving citadel with manual reaper override - just like sovereign tried to do in me1. you can explain the keeper as a simple caretaker, who is tidying up the hallway. its flawed, not perfect but it could work - up until the catalyst appears. 

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Still doesn't stop the conflict between both sides. Whoever has the most resources will still advance at a faster rate than the other. Synthesis doesn't solve this problem.

The quarians were caught off guard by the collective knowledge of the geth during the first war. In me3 they were taking care of the geth quite easily.
 
As for synthetics both past and present....
Geth = destroyed in my play through by me and quarians
Zha'til = destroyed by the protheans

Moral of this story is that synthetics aren't as big and bad as the starchild makes them out to be.

If one group of synthetics got destroyed, another one will be constructed soon enough. No prohibitions will stop that, and Quarians are the living proof of that. Sooner or later organic-vs-synthetic problem will start to cause devastating troubles. It's just a matter of time.

Synthetics have as lot of advantages compared to organics, but they can't fully understand organics. Organics are mystery for them, and no regular hardware/software is able to change that. Organic and Synthetic feelings work completely differently. Synthetics just follow the code, while organics feelings/emotions and even way of thinking is a product of chemistry and outside factors which can't affect synthetics in the same way...

...Pain for example. Pain can drive any organic mad, and can be removed fast enough only by painkillers (i.e. chemistry). For synthetic pain is just a damage indicator. It can take as much pain as needed for as long as needed and remain 100% calm.

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

Modifié par Seival, 01 décembre 2012 - 09:05 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

I don't need Synthesis to achieve any of that.

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

I don't need Synthesis to achieve any of that.

Only in your dreams

Utopia isn't achievable with conventional methods. That's why it called utopia.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

I don't need Synthesis to achieve any of that.

Only in your dreams

Utopia isn't achievable with conventional methods. That's why it called utopia.

Utopia isn't achievable at all, it's just a dream.

[Seival]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

I don't need Synthesis to achieve any of that.

Only in your dreams

Utopia isn't achievable with conventional methods. That's why it called utopia.

Utopia isn't achievable at all, it's just a dream.

No, we just don't know real methods to achieve it... yet. And BioWare showed us a fictional method to achieve utopia: Synthesis. Very specific changing everyone and everything on atomic level.

[OMEGAlomaniac]

Well.... no, no it wasn't. The original plan (before Karpyshyn left) was to use the very obscure, but heavily implied Dark Enery plot as the basis for why the Reapers existed.

The whole point to their harvests was that a "perfect" Reaper could stop the spread of the energy, and they were going to try to create one, no matter what the cost was. Humanity was deemed to be the perfect race (due to our adaptability and broad genetic spectrum), which was why they took such a huge interest in us.

I remember it being quoted somewhere that the final choices in the game were to revolve around whether we would give our selves willingly to stop the Dark Energy (taking a huge chunk of our population in the process), or if we were going to defeat the Reapers, and attempt to find a way to stop it ourselves.

Personally, that sounds a whole lot more interesting than Casey's Insane AI Child idea.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

I don't need Synthesis to achieve any of that.

Only in your dreams

Sometimes I wish I only dreamt the events of ME3, but then I have to come back to the unfortunate reality. 

Utopia isn't achievable with conventional methods. That's why it called utopia.

So the solution is using the Crucible to indoctrinate the galaxy based on the bullsh*t idiocy that your enemy tells you five minutes before you use it? 

No one sane wants anything to do wih your supposed utopia. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 01 décembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[Dr_Extrem]

utopia is not achievable. wishfull thinking yes - realistic even with technology - no.

one premise for utopia would be the absence of conflict - in any form. what is the reason of conflict? different opinions. how do we get rid of conflict? - deletion of different opinions.
in other words - uniformation of minds

welcome to the forced, uniformed hell ...

i will pass this one.


*this exchange is over*

[Seival]

Sci-fi is a fiction of course, but each fictional story has its own rules.

In ME Story utopia is achievable by Synthesis, just watch the Synthesis epilogue.

In reality? Noone can prove anything about this right now. Humanity knows too little about that subject.

Modifié par Seival, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:58 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Seival wrote...

Sci-fi is a fiction of course, but each fictional story has its own rules.

In ME Story utopia is achievable by Synthesis, just watch the Synthesis epilogue.

In reality? Noone can prove anything about this right now. Humanity knows too little about that subject.

synthesis is only achievable in mass effect, because it breaks and pisses on the rules, the universe has set to itself as a standard.

synthesis throws the science of mass effect out of the window.

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

I don't need Synthesis to achieve any of that.

Only in your dreams

Utopia isn't achievable with conventional methods. That's why it called utopia.

Utopia isn't achievable at all, it's just a dream.

No, we just don't know real methods to achieve it... yet. And BioWare showed us a fictional method to achieve utopia: Synthesis. Very specific changing everyone and everything on atomic level.

Not to lower the tone of the conversation. But this throwback to Eugenic's, which is now being touted as Eugenics Plus thinking needs a strong response.A response that leaves the viewer under no impression as to what will happen if someone tries to take my right's of individuality and self security away . So here is mine.



Here is, once again, the problem. The enemy gives you a supposed Utopia based on it's view of what a Utopia should be.

There are other ways to achieve this. The geth for example understood individuality after they took onboard the Reaper code. They gained the foundation's of understanding humanity by taking the aspect of consensus without walls or barrier's and essentially erected them. They may still be connected. But now they have a sense of self. It did not take synthesis to do that.

Simply put, the galaxies inhabitant's were evolving, both in self and out of self. The Geth in my play through would have come to be a cherished part of the intersteller alliance had the Catalyst not killed them with his destroy option. Would it have killed him to allow the machine's, who had grown beyond the Catalyst's meager understanding of what a machine can be, to live.........

Well yes, I guess it would have. And that is why he did it. He held them hostage. Kill me if you want Shepard. But I'm taking your so called new machine friends with me!

The catalyst essentially has the views of a stingy old man. To set in it's way's to consider that it might be wrong.

If the Catalyst had allowed the Geth to live through destroy, then if, as it says new synthetic life arose, the Geth would be on hand to mediate between the Org's and the Synth's on account that the Geth have joined  the Org's and established ties to their creators. They can no longer be viewed as mindless machines and if they are their right's will be fought for.

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Still doesn't stop the conflict between both sides. Whoever has the most resources will still advance at a faster rate than the other. Synthesis doesn't solve this problem.

The quarians were caught off guard by the collective knowledge of the geth during the first war. In me3 they were taking care of the geth quite easily.
 
As for synthetics both past and present....
Geth = destroyed in my play through by me and quarians
Zha'til = destroyed by the protheans

Moral of this story is that synthetics aren't as big and bad as the starchild makes them out to be.

If one group of synthetics got destroyed, another one will be constructed soon enough. No prohibitions will stop that, and Quarians are the living proof of that. Sooner or later organic-vs-synthetic problem will start to cause devastating troubles. It's just a matter of time.

Synthetics have as lot of advantages compared to organics, but they can't fully understand organics. Organics are mystery for them, and no regular hardware/software is able to change that. Organic and Synthetic feelings work completely differently. Synthetics just follow the code, while organics feelings/emotions and even way of thinking is a product of chemistry and outside factors which can't affect synthetics in the same way...

...Pain for example. Pain can drive any organic mad, and can be removed fast enough only by painkillers (i.e. chemistry). For synthetic pain is just a damage indicator. It can take as much pain as needed for as long as needed and remain 100% calm.

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

This is wrong. I'll have to look for it but its already been stated by dev's that the race's that have been synthesized still retain their individuality so your assessment of one persistant society would be wrong.

Again, even if there is peace it would only be temporary.  Groups in a society can understand one another and still war with each other over resources. As both organics and synthetics expand a clash is inevitable. Synthesis no matter how much you hope for still can/will have disputes/war with each other.

As for your explanation of what organics and synthetics gain from synthesis still doesn't change this fact. Even the geth were fighting each other in the back ground of me2 on the future of its species. This right here proves to me that the geth already had somewhat a close resemblance of organics as a whole.

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 02 décembre 2012 - 12:22 .

[Seival]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

synthesis is only achievable in mass effect, because it breaks and pisses on the rules, the universe has set to itself as a standard.

synthesis throws the science of mass effect out of the window.

A lot of people disagree with such assumptions.

Well, and if you don't like Synthesis you have other endings to choose from.

[Dr_Extrem]

Seival wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

synthesis is only achievable in mass effect, because it breaks and pisses on the rules, the universe has set to itself as a standard.

synthesis throws the science of mass effect out of the window.

A lot of people disagree with such assumptions.

Well, and if you don't like Synthesis you have other endings to choose from.

assumption? .. there is nothing in this game, what gives synthesis a solid scientific background or foundation. not even mass effect science itself.

do you know how many information you need, just to determin the position one hydrogen atom within time and space? .. you need a four dementional coordinate system for every part of the atom, the subatomic parts, the position of the electron, and its orbital status, charge and off course the quantum conditions, you cant detect, without changing them (schrödingers cat explains that).

just for one hydrogen .. now immagine the data needed for the molecule of one dna fragment.

now, you have to change and rearrange it, while we fall through space ... earth moves at about 30km/s around the sun - in adition, the planet rotates around its axis (1670km/h) ... while our sun system spints around a giantific black hole in the middle of the milky way (220km/s). well .. and our galaxy moves through space as well (600km/s). good luck finding your dna in time and space. i did not even took account for all the other effects.

lets assume you are able to change the dna without bursting the cell. the cell stays the way it does - until segmentation hits .. now you have a cell with the new information and the old ones ... well .. horror show would be accurate. the human body needs about 7,5 years to exchange every cell within the body. until that, you are a hybrid and a freak of nature. will your transitional body even work? i doubt that. your brain will also change - would you still be the same person, since every neuron in your brain will change?

the mass effect universe is not even able to teleport matter - well exept for characters during dialogue. and there, you would not even change anything exept its position in space. the only thing we can do, is travel at ftl speed, by lowering the mass on an object.


synthesis is scientific nonsense - its pure fiction. even within the mass effect universe.

[Redbelle]

I think you've argued with Seiv before so I'll just say this. Punch out now.

Seiv's absolute position is that the Reapers and Catalyst were right to do things, most normal people would look upon as crimes against humanity. That and war crimes.

I used to think that Seiv's position was one of 'look at the bigger picture, by which I mean, look for the solution which will do the most good regardless of the intial harm you inflict. However, Absolute position seems to slide into 'if you can't beat them join them' in some vain annilalistic fetish that ultimately dooms himself and the rest of the galaxy. And I only use the term fetish as, despite numerous efforts in the past to help him see his solution through other perspectives, he has steadfastly refused to give them consideration. If he had he would see that his interpretation of Synthesis is, quite frankly, repugnant to the idea that all free sentient's have the right to self determination.

But when someone see that right as the problem and tries to take it away........ well, here we are arguing against it. It's been over 1-2 month's of this let's synthesis the galaxy, by force if we have to? I'm just glad it's a game and there is no citadel or crucible, cause Seiv would be the last person I'd let near that beam.

[N7Gold]

Fake.

[Dr_Extrem]

Redbelle wrote...

I think you've argued with Seiv before so I'll just say this. Punch out now.

Seiv's absolute position is that the Reapers and Catalyst were right to do things, most normal people would look upon as crimes against humanity. That and war crimes.

I used to think that Seiv's position was one of 'look at the bigger picture, by which I mean, look for the solution which will do the most good regardless of the intial harm you inflict. However, Absolute position seems to slide into 'if you can't beat them join them' in some vain annilalistic fetish that ultimately dooms himself and the rest of the galaxy. And I only use the term fetish as, despite numerous efforts in the past to help him see his solution through other perspectives, he has steadfastly refused to give them consideration. If he had he would see that his interpretation of Synthesis is, quite frankly, repugnant to the idea that all free sentient's have the right to self determination.

But when someone see that right as the problem and tries to take it away........ well, here we are arguing against it. It's been over 1-2 month's of this let's synthesis the galaxy, by force if we have to? I'm just glad it's a game and there is no citadel or crucible, cause Seiv would be the last person I'd let near that beam.

you are right ...

but everytime someone states that synthesis has a scientific background within mass effect or even the real world, i get cramps. i devoted my life to chemistry and science and this synthesis nonsense hurts.

i would be ok of with it, if mass effect was not so focused on the science part of science fiction (well at least for the majority of the games). while liquifying and pumping them into a reaper shel is on the far side of the science spectrum of mass effect sscience, it can be explained or at least justified by the assumption, that the mind is uploaded to the synthetic part, during the process, as well.

mass effect has a lot of fiction inside - but it as always respected its own science - up until synthesis.


about seivals radical position:

i know what happens to a society who walks this patch - it does not end well and only leads to pain and suffering for all sides. it does not only effect the affected generation - all the generations that come after the events will suffer as well.

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Still doesn't stop the conflict between both sides. Whoever has the most resources will still advance at a faster rate than the other. Synthesis doesn't solve this problem.

The quarians were caught off guard by the collective knowledge of the geth during the first war. In me3 they were taking care of the geth quite easily.
 
As for synthetics both past and present....
Geth = destroyed in my play through by me and quarians
Zha'til = destroyed by the protheans

Moral of this story is that synthetics aren't as big and bad as the starchild makes them out to be.

If one group of synthetics got destroyed, another one will be constructed soon enough. No prohibitions will stop that, and Quarians are the living proof of that. Sooner or later organic-vs-synthetic problem will start to cause devastating troubles. It's just a matter of time.

Synthetics have as lot of advantages compared to organics, but they can't fully understand organics. Organics are mystery for them, and no regular hardware/software is able to change that. Organic and Synthetic feelings work completely differently. Synthetics just follow the code, while organics feelings/emotions and even way of thinking is a product of chemistry and outside factors which can't affect synthetics in the same way...

...Pain for example. Pain can drive any organic mad, and can be removed fast enough only by painkillers (i.e. chemistry). For synthetic pain is just a damage indicator. It can take as much pain as needed for as long as needed and remain 100% calm.

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

This is wrong. I'll have to look for it but its already been stated by dev's that the race's that have been synthesized still retain their individuality so your assessment of one persistant society would be wrong.

Again, even if there is peace it would only be temporary.  Groups in a society can understand one another and still war with each other over resources. As both organics and synthetics expand a clash is inevitable. Synthesis no matter how much you hope for still can/will have disputes/war with each other.

As for your explanation of what organics and synthetics gain from synthesis still doesn't change this fact. Even the geth were fighting each other in the back ground of me2 on the future of its species. This right here proves to me that the geth already had somewhat a close resemblance of organics as a whole.

There are no full-scale wars within one isolated country (even if it is multi-race) if people are not divided because of different groups within the country are alien to each other, and if there are no specific outer dividing factors the country can't overcome. There are some conflicts in such country, some of them can cause harm or even deaths, but all these conflicts have too small scale, because there is no outer forces involved, and majority is against those conflicts... Synthesized galaxy can be considered as one isolated multi-race country with one persistant society, and no outer or internal forces that can divide people too much...

...Such country existance is impossible in modern real world, but it doesn't mean it's completely impossible. We are talking about sci-fi here, remember?

...Well, and alien entities will always fight to the death. Such wars are not just about territory or resources, they are mostly about total devastation, where only one or none of two entities stays alive eventually.

Modifié par Seival, 02 décembre 2012 - 01:34 .

[Seival]

Redbelle wrote...

I think you've argued with Seiv before so I'll just say this. Punch out now.

Seiv's absolute position is that the Reapers and Catalyst were right to do things, most normal people would look upon as crimes against humanity. That and war crimes.

I used to think that Seiv's position was one of 'look at the bigger picture, by which I mean, look for the solution which will do the most good regardless of the intial harm you inflict. However, Absolute position seems to slide into 'if you can't beat them join them' in some vain annilalistic fetish that ultimately dooms himself and the rest of the galaxy. And I only use the term fetish as, despite numerous efforts in the past to help him see his solution through other perspectives, he has steadfastly refused to give them consideration. If he had he would see that his interpretation of Synthesis is, quite frankly, repugnant to the idea that all free sentient's have the right to self determination.

But when someone see that right as the problem and tries to take it away........ well, here we are arguing against it. It's been over 1-2 month's of this let's synthesis the galaxy, by force if we have to? I'm just glad it's a game and there is no citadel or crucible, cause Seiv would be the last person I'd let near that beam.

I never approved something like "If you can't beat them join them."...

...My points are based only on "Look at the bigger picture. The Leviathans didn't make a mistake, and the Catalyst is right. But Cycled Harvests was only temporary solution, which has to be replaced with something permanent eventually. And Synthesis is the only permanent solution".

Modifié par Seival, 02 décembre 2012 - 01:51 .

[ruggly]

Seival wrote...



I never approved something like "If you can't beat them join them."...

Seival

EDIT: If I would know everything
about the Reapers from the beginning, then I would try to find the ways
to join them. That would provide the Catalyst a way to apply Synthesis
during ME1 events, and help Galactic Civilization to avoid a lot of
deaths. 

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

I think you've argued with Seiv before so I'll just say this. Punch out now.

Seiv's absolute position is that the Reapers and Catalyst were right to do things, most normal people would look upon as crimes against humanity. That and war crimes.

I used to think that Seiv's position was one of 'look at the bigger picture, by which I mean, look for the solution which will do the most good regardless of the intial harm you inflict. However, Absolute position seems to slide into 'if you can't beat them join them' in some vain annilalistic fetish that ultimately dooms himself and the rest of the galaxy. And I only use the term fetish as, despite numerous efforts in the past to help him see his solution through other perspectives, he has steadfastly refused to give them consideration. If he had he would see that his interpretation of Synthesis is, quite frankly, repugnant to the idea that all free sentient's have the right to self determination.

But when someone see that right as the problem and tries to take it away........ well, here we are arguing against it. It's been over 1-2 month's of this let's synthesis the galaxy, by force if we have to? I'm just glad it's a game and there is no citadel or crucible, cause Seiv would be the last person I'd let near that beam.

I never approved something like "If you can't beat them join them."...

...My points are based only on "Look at the bigger picture. The Leviathans didn't make a mistake, and the Catalyst is right. But Cycled Harvests was only temporary solution, which has to be replaced with something permanent eventually. And Synthesis is the only permanent solution".

Saying the Levi's didn't make a mistake is like saying 'the Terminator' universe didn't make a mistake by building SkyNet.

Both are ultimately tasked with protecting their creators. But both ultimately turn out to consume and destroy their creators.

The Catalyst is unique in that it is a synthetic, i.e. not from nature. And it has come to conclusion that it and other's like it will destroy their creators. From that point on it was tasked to perform a function that went against it's nature.

Seiv, you are following the advice of a computer program that knows nothing of mortal life or what it is to live. Yet want's to alter all life into a form that it computes is the optimum form.

Once you go down the road of choosing optimum forms, then further on down the line, the galaxy will have to do it again. And again,,,,,,, And again as life throws curve balls at the galaxy that makes what you think is the right choice now, the wrong choice in the future.

The best, and enlightened way of living through such times is the answer to the question.

Why do hot dogs in packs of 10, while buns come in packs of 8?

[Seival]

ruggly wrote...

Seival wrote...

I never approved something like "If you can't beat them join them."...

Seival

EDIT: If I would know everything
about the Reapers from the beginning, then I would try to find the ways
to join them. That would provide the Catalyst a way to apply Synthesis
during ME1 events, and help Galactic Civilization to avoid a lot of
deaths.

This means joining them because you think they are doing the right thing, not because you can't beat them.

Modifié par Seival, 02 décembre 2012 - 02:55 .