474 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seival, I am still curious how you came to the conclusion that the final conversation is a dream. Especially given how the scene is edited. We do see Shepard take an elevator ride before the white-out happens.

[BSpud]

**** like this is why every Seival thread is automatically an instant click. I wish I could get email notifications when he starts a new thread just so I don't miss out.

[Seival]

Redbelle wrote...

Saying the Levi's didn't make a mistake is like saying 'the Terminator' universe didn't make a mistake by building SkyNet.

Those are completely different things. The Catalyst was constructed to preserve life. While the SkyNet was constructed to wage a war...

...Lesser races only build synthetics to make their own life easier, i.e. they build slaves for themselves, the ones who will do all the hard work and will not demand food and rest.



The Catalyst wasn't a mistake, it still serves its purpose - preserving the life.

The SkyNet was a mistake, it was constructed as a slave who will wage a war, and it broke free eventually. Terminator universe is a nice example of why Leviathan's and Catalyst's logic is absolutly correct.

Modifié par Seival, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:17 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Seival wrote...


The Catalyst wasn't a mistake, it still serves its purpose - preserving the life.

Make us all happy and go and preserve yourself...

[string3r]

There was no plan, they just made it up as they went along.

[Seival]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival, I am still curious how you came to the conclusion that the final conversation is a dream. Especially given how the scene is edited. We do see Shepard take an elevator ride before the white-out happens.

Well, I told about that a lot of times actually

...But some people still confuse mental conversation in the end with the IT. IT is not about mental conversations or indoctrination, it's only about promoting primitive destroy-only ending by using game bugs and number of misguided interpretations. ITers are just a specific branch of retakers, nothing more. Out of their "canon" they are all just regular haters.

Modifié par Seival, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival, I am still curious how you came to the conclusion that the final conversation is a dream. Especially given how the scene is edited. We do see Shepard take an elevator ride before the white-out happens.

Well, I told about that a lot of times actually

...But some people still confuse mental conversation in the end with the IT. IT is not about mental conversations or indoctrination, it's only about promoting primitive destroy-only ending by using game bugs and number of misguided interpretations. ITers are just a specific branch of retakers, nothing more. Out of their "canon" they are all just regular haters.

That is not what I am saying. I am not comparing your idea with IT. I am simply asking how you got the idea that the final conversation is a mental conversation (which is basicly a dream) given how the scene is edited.

[Morty Smith]

Point of the discussion was based on swapped lines. What is this discussion about?

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Still doesn't stop the conflict between both sides. Whoever has the most resources will still advance at a faster rate than the other. Synthesis doesn't solve this problem.

The quarians were caught off guard by the collective knowledge of the geth during the first war. In me3 they were taking care of the geth quite easily.
 
As for synthetics both past and present....
Geth = destroyed in my play through by me and quarians
Zha'til = destroyed by the protheans

Moral of this story is that synthetics aren't as big and bad as the starchild makes them out to be.

If one group of synthetics got destroyed, another one will be constructed soon enough. No prohibitions will stop that, and Quarians are the living proof of that. Sooner or later organic-vs-synthetic problem will start to cause devastating troubles. It's just a matter of time.

Synthetics have as lot of advantages compared to organics, but they can't fully understand organics. Organics are mystery for them, and no regular hardware/software is able to change that. Organic and Synthetic feelings work completely differently. Synthetics just follow the code, while organics feelings/emotions and even way of thinking is a product of chemistry and outside factors which can't affect synthetics in the same way...

...Pain for example. Pain can drive any organic mad, and can be removed fast enough only by painkillers (i.e. chemistry). For synthetic pain is just a damage indicator. It can take as much pain as needed for as long as needed and remain 100% calm.

Synthesis gives synthetics an "upgrade" which allows them to fully understand organics. And organics receive new DNA, which removes some regular organic disadvantages and move organics very close to synthetics capabilities. Which means that in case of Synthetis organics and synthetics are merged into one persistent society. They are not alien to each other anymore. Even some differences between different organics are removed in case of Synthesis. So, basically, in case of Synthesis Galactic Civilization becomes one country with several different communities instead of being a number of different and always-fighting-each-other countries.

This is wrong. I'll have to look for it but its already been stated by dev's that the race's that have been synthesized still retain their individuality so your assessment of one persistant society would be wrong.

Again, even if there is peace it would only be temporary.  Groups in a society can understand one another and still war with each other over resources. As both organics and synthetics expand a clash is inevitable. Synthesis no matter how much you hope for still can/will have disputes/war with each other.

As for your explanation of what organics and synthetics gain from synthesis still doesn't change this fact. Even the geth were fighting each other in the back ground of me2 on the future of its species. This right here proves to me that the geth already had somewhat a close resemblance of organics as a whole.

There are no full-scale wars within one isolated country (even if it is multi-race) if people are not divided because of different groups within the country are alien to each other, and if there are no specific outer dividing factors the country can't overcome. There are some conflicts in such country, some of them can cause harm or even deaths, but all these conflicts have too small scale, because there is no outer forces involved, and majority is against those conflicts... Synthesized galaxy can be considered as one isolated multi-race country with one persistant society, and no outer or internal forces that can divide people too much...

...Such country existance is impossible in modern real world, but it doesn't mean it's completely impossible. We are talking about sci-fi here, remember?

...Well, and alien entities will always fight to the death. Such wars are not just about territory or resources, they are mostly about total devastation, where only one or none of two entities stays alive eventually.

I'm not trying to be mean here but maybe something is being lost in translation. Your dealing in so many absolutes in this discussion that I think you don't really have any interest/intention of debating this. Your just kinda throwing out these statements and not really answer/discussing any of the points I'm hitting on.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

The Catalyst wasn't a mistake, it still serves its purpose - preserving the life.

It thinks it's preserving life. I'm certain the trillions and trillions of people the f*cker has killed over the years don't. 

The SkyNet was a mistake, it was constructed as a slave who will wage a war, and it broke free eventually. Terminator universe is a nice example of why Leviathan's and Catalyst's logic is absolutly correct.

Something happening in Terminator, a fictional universe you should hate, is evidence as to why Space Kid's retarded whining about sythetics is correct? 

No. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:56 .

[Seival]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival, I am still curious how you came to the conclusion that the final conversation is a dream. Especially given how the scene is edited. We do see Shepard take an elevator ride before the white-out happens.

Well, I told about that a lot of times actually

...But some people still confuse mental conversation in the end with the IT. IT is not about mental conversations or indoctrination, it's only about promoting primitive destroy-only ending by using game bugs and number of misguided interpretations. ITers are just a specific branch of retakers, nothing more. Out of their "canon" they are all just regular haters.

That is not what I am saying. I am not comparing your idea with IT. I am simply asking how you got the idea that the final conversation is a mental conversation (which is basicly a dream) given how the scene is edited.

Well, something like "control rods", "pillar of light", and "glass tube" are vital Citadel systems, which can't be left unprotected. Such things must be hided deep within the station core under the thickest armor and the strongest barriers. But somehow, we see them on the station's sheathing, where any patrol ship can find and destroy them. This can't happen in reality...

...The whole environment in the final conversation is actually a giant dialogue wheel, if we look at it from above. "Magical elevator" and the whole conversation with the Catalyst is symbolical. You cooperate with the Catalyst to find and apply the new solution, or refuse to cooperate and let the Cycled Harvests to continue. It's logical that such things are better to be shown as some kind of dream sequences, because that looks and feels epic.

...Besides, Shepard is terribly wounded and lost consciousness. She has no strength to talk in regular ways in the end. But mental converstation is possible even in this case.

[Seival]

Kroitz wrote...

What is this discussion about?

It is about if everything about ME3 ending was actually planned by BioWare when they worked on ME1, or not.

Modifié par Seival, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:04 .

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival, I am still curious how you came to the conclusion that the final conversation is a dream. Especially given how the scene is edited. We do see Shepard take an elevator ride before the white-out happens.

Well, I told about that a lot of times actually

...But some people still confuse mental conversation in the end with the IT. IT is not about mental conversations or indoctrination, it's only about promoting primitive destroy-only ending by using game bugs and number of misguided interpretations. ITers are just a specific branch of retakers, nothing more. Out of their "canon" they are all just regular haters.

Ok......I think with this statement right here I've learned that I can't take you seriously. I'm not an ITer, but calling someone else's interpretation misguided when yours somewhat parallels it is just plain foolish. Not only that, you're basically blasting anyone who picked destroy ( which is the majority ).

Your theory on the mental conversation hasn't been proven and shows little fact in game. I'll say again, how can the catalyst do something as complicated as genetic dispersal through mental stimulation ( synthesis in your head canon ) when it couldn't even close/activate the citadel during me1?

[Morty Smith]

Seival wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

What is this discussion about?

It is about if everything about ME3 ending was planned by BioWare when they worked on ME1, or not.

"I think people would be sort of surprised by how little we defined in the upcoming games. So in Mass Effect 1, it was really only a couple of paragraphs about what we thought Mass Effect 2 would be and even less of what we thought Mass Effect 3 would be. And it was the same thing when we where doing 2. It was really about having stakes in the ground about certain things. We knew that Mass Effect 3 would be about, the Reapers returning. We knew that it would be about the galactic conflict that would ensue from that, and we knew that it would be the end of Shepard’s story, one way or the other."
- Mac Walters

Source: http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

/Speculation

Modifié par Kroitz, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seival wrote...
Well, something like "control rods", "pillar of light", and "glass tube" are vital Citadel systems, which can't be left unprotected. Such things must be hided deep within the station core under the thickest armor and the strongest barriers. But somehow, we see them on the station's sheathing, where any patrol ship can find and destroy them. This can't happen in reality...

Or maybe it can because the writing sucks and Bioware never planned anything ahead of time.

...The whole environment in the final conversation is actually a giant dialogue wheel, if we look at it from above. "Magical elevator" and the whole conversation with the Catalyst is symbolical. You cooperate with the Catalyst to find and apply the new solution, or refuse to cooperate and let the Cycled Harvests to continue. It's logical that such things are better to be shown as some kind of dream sequences, because that looks and feels epic.

...Besides, Shepard is terribly wounded and lost consciousness. She has no strength to talk in regular ways in the end. But mental converstation is possible even in this case.

And the council chamber kinda looks like a Reaper. Both proves abseloutly nothing.

Let us not forget that according to you. The catalyst lies to Shepard and says that he is on the Citadel when in reality, Shepard is in a dream. Since he is honest according to you, why would he lie about this? And since it is a dream, why does control or synthesis kill him exactly?

Also. Would you mind telling me where Shepard is going in the last elevator ride?

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

I'll say again, how can the catalyst do something as complicated as genetic dispersal through mental stimulation ( synthesis in your head canon ) when it couldn't even close/activate the citadel during me1?

Catalyst can use Reaper abilities for mental conversations. It's the fact, because all Reaper tech is partially based on Leviathans' genetic material.

Catalyst doesn't have access to all Citadel systems. Why? Who cares? The fact is that it can't open/close arms itself, and can't vent all the atmosphere from the station. The station was designed in that way, and there must be some reason for that. It's all we have to know on the matter.

Catalyst can't activate Control/Synthesis/Destroy without Shepard's help, and Shepard can't activate Control/Synthesis/Destroy without Catalyst's help. They have to cooperate to apply the new solution, its just the fact, and we don't really need to know the exact mechanics of triggering and applying chosen solution.

...We are talking about fictional story here, not about detailed tutorial "How to change the universe in 5 minutes". But some people completely forgot about that.

[Bizantura]

Individuals have a hard time with "long term planning". A multinational? Seriously!!

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

I'll say again, how can the catalyst do something as complicated as genetic dispersal through mental stimulation ( synthesis in your head canon ) when it couldn't even close/activate the citadel during me1?

Catalyst can use Reaper abilities for mental conversations. It's the fact, because all Reaper tech is partially based on Leviathans' genetic material.

Catalyst doesn't have access to all Citadel systems. Why? Who cares? The fact is that it can't open/close arms itself, and can't vent all the atmosphere from the station. The station was designed in that way, and there must be some reason for that. It's all we have to know on the matter.

Catalyst can't activate Control/Synthesis/Destroy without Shepard's help, and Shepard can't activate Control/Synthesis/Destroy without Catalyst's help. They have to cooperate to apply the new solution, its just the fact, and we don't really need to know the exact mechanics of triggering and applying chosen solution.

...We are talking about fictional story here, not about detailed tutorial "How to change the universe in 5 minutes". But some people completely forgot about that.

Then it really boils down AGAIN to your theory of synthesis is nothing more than your own head canon because of the lack of proof in game. You say that IT is misguided but fail to see the irony of your own theory.

Everyone knows that its fiction but you seem to be adding your own fiction to that of mass effects fiction. ( see what I did there? )

[Seival]

Kroitz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

What is this discussion about?

It is about if everything about ME3 ending was planned by BioWare when they worked on ME1, or not.

"I think people would be sort of surprised by how little we defined in the upcoming games. So in Mass Effect 1, it was really only a couple of paragraphs about what we thought Mass Effect 2 would be and even less of what we thought Mass Effect 3 would be. And it was the same thing when we where doing 2. It was really about having stakes in the ground about certain things. We knew that Mass Effect 3 would be about, the Reapers returning. We knew that it would be about the galactic conflict that would ensue from that, and we knew that it would be the end of Shepard’s story, one way or the other."
- Mac Walters

Source: http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

/Speculation

I know about such interview. But that could easily mean they just don't want to admit they had planned everything from the beginning.

[Morty Smith]

Seival wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

What is this discussion about?

It is about if everything about ME3 ending was planned by BioWare when they worked on ME1, or not.

"I think people would be sort of surprised by how little we defined in the upcoming games. So in Mass Effect 1, it was really only a couple of paragraphs about what we thought Mass Effect 2 would be and even less of what we thought Mass Effect 3 would be. And it was the same thing when we where doing 2. It was really about having stakes in the ground about certain things. We knew that Mass Effect 3 would be about, the Reapers returning. We knew that it would be about the galactic conflict that would ensue from that, and we knew that it would be the end of Shepard’s story, one way or the other."
- Mac Walters

Source: http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

/Speculation

I know about such interview. But that could easily mean they just don't want to admit they had planned everything from the beginning.

It easily means no matter what evidence is provided, you just keep this discussion going to push your own ego.
Have fun with that.

Modifié par Kroitz, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[KwangtungTiger]

As in previous threads, you expect the ITers to show all their proof from in game but fail to do so yourself. Just stating something happens off screen as fact, in fact doesn't make it soo.

Maybe you need to learn to discuss other people's theories based on their merits as opposed to calling them stupid ( essentially ).

[KwangtungTiger]

Kroitz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

What is this discussion about?

It is about if everything about ME3 ending was planned by BioWare when they worked on ME1, or not.

"I think people would be sort of surprised by how little we defined in the upcoming games. So in Mass Effect 1, it was really only a couple of paragraphs about what we thought Mass Effect 2 would be and even less of what we thought Mass Effect 3 would be. And it was the same thing when we where doing 2. It was really about having stakes in the ground about certain things. We knew that Mass Effect 3 would be about, the Reapers returning. We knew that it would be about the galactic conflict that would ensue from that, and we knew that it would be the end of Shepard’s story, one way or the other."
- Mac Walters

Source: http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

/Speculation

I know about such interview. But that could easily mean they just don't want to admit they had planned everything from the beginning.

It easily means no matter what evidence is provided, you just keep this discussion going to push your own ego.
Have fun with that.

Again proof is shown but seival fails to see it. It makes no sense for them to deny such a statement.

[Vinny]

Seival wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

What is this discussion about?

It is about if everything about ME3 ending was planned by BioWare when they worked on ME1, or not.

"I think people would be sort of surprised by how little we defined in the upcoming games. So in Mass Effect 1, it was really only a couple of paragraphs about what we thought Mass Effect 2 would be and even less of what we thought Mass Effect 3 would be. And it was the same thing when we where doing 2. It was really about having stakes in the ground about certain things. We knew that Mass Effect 3 would be about, the Reapers returning. We knew that it would be about the galactic conflict that would ensue from that, and we knew that it would be the end of Shepard’s story, one way or the other."
- Mac Walters

Source: http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

/Speculation

I know about such interview. But that could easily mean they just don't want to admit they had planned everything from the beginning.

"Of course, some of you are also pinging me to find out what the “original” ending of the series was when we started planning out the trilogy. Sorry, but that’s not something I’m even going to attempt to answer. The collaborative creative process is incredibly complicated, and the story and ideas are constantly evolving as you go forward. Yes, we had a plan, but it was very vague. We knew we wanted to focus on some key themes and bring in certain key elements: organics vs synthetics; the Reapers; the Mass Relays. Beyond that, we didn’t go into detail because we knew it would change radically as the game continued to evolve.A good example of this is Cerberus. When we wrote ME1, Cerberus was basically a throw-away group of pro-human radicals: a name we dropped for some side missions to play the role of villain. We didn’t even have a concept of who was running them, and we didn’t think they were that important. Obviously by the time of my Ascension novel and ME2, that had changed radically. The Illusive Man and Cerberus became central to the story and themes – that never would have happened if we had nailed everything down and refused to make changes to the story.So I don’t like to say “here’s what we originally were thinking” because it gives a false and very distorted impression of the process. Mass Effect was the creation of a huge team, with contributions coming in from many people at many stages of the project. Some things I liked ended up getting cut, some stuff I wasn’t sure of worked its way in. That’s the nature of the beast with collaborative works, and I think in the end it makes the final product stronger. But talking about the changes after the fact feels like I’m sitting on my throne and proclaiming, “That’s not what I would have done!” It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and say “I would do this or that”, but it’s very different when you’re part of the process, working with multiple ideas, trying to piece it all together and still hit your deadlines. Anyone who wasn’t part of the ME3 team is an outsider – even me – and whatever they say about the creation of the game is just unsubstantiated speculation."

Drew Karpyshyn.

#Interpretthisasyouwill

Modifié par Epök, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[blind-tiger]

I haven't played in the ME universe in over a year, so let me just say this: the Citadel AI is with the worst acts of a creator/ developer inserting themselves into their stories, to interrupt an otherwise concluded plot, I've had the pleasure of ignoring. No allusion to it, no one speculating about it, no trail of it in the narrative, no need for it sum into this needless, eleventh-hour absentee. But only in a setting built from 19th century imperialism, would I find this queen mother, perched watching from her ivory tower, never speaking to her children except to direct their last few moments into manageable consequences. How convenient for it to show up to take the mantle of life's guiding spirit off from Shepard, after all the player's actions rested a galaxy of consequences on Shepard alone.

So that's why my Paragon let the old world throw itself at a wall of death. ME4's development only shows nothing was resolved by ending the cycle: the war to survive won't stop. On that note, a sequel to the Nameless One's story can result in good. You've missed black isle's fatalistic message if you think so.

[GreyLycanTrope]

KwangtungTiger wrote...
Again proof is shown but seival fails to see it. It makes no sense for them to deny such a statement.

Must be your first Seival thread.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 02 décembre 2012 - 05:13 .