135 réponses à ce sujet

[Sacred_Fantasy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sacred Fantasy wrote...

My reply was, I couldn't comment on whether Alistair undergo radical personality changes in DA 2 as with Merril or Anders, simply because he appear too brief and spoke very few lines ( in DA 2 ) to make any evalution on his personality.  

Except her personality doesn't change in the context of how we interacted with her in Origins. It remains consistent.

Except her personality does change. Radically.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Merril in DAO know the danger of ancient ruin and would not go against the first keeper with regard to the mirror shard. Merril in DA 2 has no regard for anyone else safety with her blood magic and naively think the mirror shard should be protected, completely disregard the fact that it turn Tamlen into a zombie.

IIRC, Merrill said she was interested in the ruins in DAO.

And no, the shard didn't turn Tamlen into a ghoul. That was the Taint, which has been cleansed from the shard by virtue of Merrill using blood magic to amplify the healing magic Marethari taught her -- which in DAO was established as being able to fight the Taint in its unamplified state.

The Mirror was destroyed by Duncan right in front of Merril. Everyone understand the danger of the mirror. No one try to stop Duncan.The Mirror had to be destroyed at all cost becuse the risk far outweight it's benefit. 
Merrill didn't even protest a word. She didn't even complain about it. It's my understanding that she agreed by Duncan's move.


Merrill would never do things without concern of The Dalish Keeper especially when it's involved dangerous task,  for example she would'nt agree to take Fanarel along unless you ask permission from the Keeper.
 
That's who Merrill is in DAO.

Merrill in DA 2 is not only an immature dallish elf

Merrill: You could get another cat, you know. There's one in the Lowtown market with a litter of kittens ready to wean.
Anders: You don't pay attention to templars, Qunari or politics, but you notice kittens?
Merrill: Templars, Qunari, and politics don't meow and attack your feet when you're buying food.
Anders: Are there any tabbies? I'd like a tabby.
******************************************************
Merrill: You must really like the Hawke family.
Aveline: Why do you say that?
Merrill: You came all the way from Lothering with them, didn't you? And they're not even your clan.
Aveline: Humans don't have clans, Merrill.
Merrill: Exactly! You came so far together, and you didn't even have a Keeper to make you get along.
Aveline: So your Keeper tells you to stop kicking each other, or she'll turn the aravel around?
Merrill: Sometimes she also warns us to stop pulling hair.

, she's is also rebellious. Merrill DAO understoodd the need to destroy the mirror by Duncan. Merrill DA 2 did the opposite thing trying to recover the very thing that was destroyed right in front of her own eyes years ago. 

Her party banter dialogues proved she has no concern for other safety despite she was well aware the risk of practising blood magic and turning into abomination, 

Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
Anders: Why would you do that?
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.    
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.
───────

Merrill: Are you all right? 
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!
Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.
*******************************************************************************
Anders: I don't know why I'm bothering with this, but you do realize it is crazy, right?
Merrill: Believe me I noticed, if I had any other choices, I'd take them.
Anders: You have choices! You always had choices! Stop using blood magic. Get rid of that damned mirror.
Merrill: Oh in that case, I will head back to Kirkwall and throw it away, right after you abandon the plight of the circle of mages.

She wasn't convident as you make it, 

Merrill: You really believe don't you?
Anders: What are we talking about?
Merrill: Believing. You do I can tell, in freedom, in mages, in good spirits and bad templars. With more fire than the sun.
Anders: And your point is?
Merrill: I miss it sometimes, things being certain.
Anders: Some things are certain.
Merrill: Not anymore.

Merril DA 2 changes never go unnoticed. I'm sorry but this kind of character is not the one I had in mind when I supported the suggestion of Merril as viable romanceable companion in DA 2.
 
Is this what suppose to be the so-called "Girl Next Door" xharacter? No thanks. I pass. I'd rather prefer average adult woman who can reason with threat and risk.

[thats1evildude]

Things I remember about DAO's Merrill:

She has black hair.
She wields magic.
She's a Dalish elf.
She was interested in the Eluvian.

My God, so much has changed.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

The Mirror was destroyed by Duncan right in front of Merril. Everyone understand the danger of the mirror. No one try to stop Duncan.The Mirror had to be destroyed at all cost becuse the risk far outweight it's benefit. 
Merrill didn't even protest a word. She didn't even complain about it. It's my understanding that she agreed by Duncan's move. 

It would be more accurate to say that she doesn't get a chance to protest. Neither does the Warden. You exchange a few words with him and then he smashes the mirror.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 novembre 2012 - 11:08 .

[LobselVith8]

Sacred Fantasy,

Merrill may have changed since the transition between Origins and Dragon Age II, but I don't think she was a bad character. She was intelligent, proactive, and attempted to utilize ancient elven tech that she thought would be able to benefit the People across the expanse of Thedas.

As for your example, why does dry humor make Merrill immature? We see her knowledge of the arcane, we see her ability to discern the nature of demons inhabiting abominations or whether a person has been possessed. I wish Hawke was as intelligent and proactive as Merrill proves to be during the seven year period of Dragon Age II, where she successfully cleanses the shard, uses the lore and information she extrapolated from the shard to reconstruct an Eluvian, and attempts to change the course of history for the People.

Furthermore, your example uses the conversation point where Merrill chastises Anders for not understanding that there's no such thing as a "good spirit." She also argues with Anders about his insistence on pushing his Andrastian views of the Fade on her - such as Spirits and Demons, the denizens of the Fade being the Children of the Maker, ect. - when she doesn't hold those religious views about the beings of the Beyond. She demonstrates her intellect and her resilience during the narrative.

As for your last points, everyone has doubts. Were you expecting a person, or a robot? Merrill isn't perfect, she's fallible, but she sought a course of action to change things while the People were simply hoping to stumble onto something. I'm glad Merrill isn't the "average woman."

[Augustei]

Merrill's demonstrated intelligence in a nutshell: www.youtube.com/watch

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I hope i never see her ever again. Worst companion in DA series, and one of the worst and ugliest characters ever. Sebastian was better, even with his Nooo parody.

[Todd23]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I hope i never see her ever again. Worst companion in DA series, and one of the worst and ugliest characters ever. Sebastian was better, even with his Nooo parody.

  Trying to say Sabastian is better is like trying trying to say Wynne was a better companion than Morrigan.  It's so rediculous, that I can't even take you seriously.

[Gamercat]

Todd23 wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I hope i never see her ever again. Worst companion in DA series, and one of the worst and ugliest characters ever. Sebastian was better, even with his Nooo parody.

  Trying to say Sabastian is better is like trying trying to say Wynne was a better companion than Morrigan.  It's so rediculous, that I can't even take you seriously.

Hey it's all a matter of opinion. I personnaly liked wynne better than morrigan, as well as sebastian better than merril.

[Face of Evil]

I love the character — anyone who doesn't like Merrill can sit on their thumb and rotate — but I'm not anxious to see her in DA3 for two reasons:

1) With a new engine and some graphical changes all but guaranteed, she won't look quite like my Merrill. She might look prettier (though God only knows how), but that's not really a gamble I care to make.

2) A re-appearance by Merrill increases the likelihood that she left Hawke at some point. I'd like to imagine she stuck by him until the point where Hawke was eaten by Flemeth or disappeared into the Fade or whatever.

Now if some NPC pops up and mentions having seen Merrill with Hawke, that'd be cool.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 novembre 2012 - 08:18 .

[KingGunDragon]

I wouldnt mind seeing her if she is hawkes love intrest. As i said in another form Hawke and their love intrest should apear at some point in the game.

[Villiamus]

A. I liked Merrill I she's adorable.

B. I would not like to see her again In my head, I think that she and Isabella should sail the high seas, raid, pillage and plunder whilst engaging in humorous and snappy dialogue and the odd sapphic moment

[Todd23]

hawkman96j wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I hope i never see her ever again. Worst companion in DA series, and one of the worst and ugliest characters ever. Sebastian was better, even with his Nooo parody.

  Trying to say Sabastian is better is like trying trying to say Wynne was a better companion than Morrigan.  It's so rediculous, that I can't even take you seriously.

Hey it's all a matter of opinion. I personnaly liked wynne better than morrigan, as well as sebastian better than merril.

... Following this logic one would assume you liked Meg more than Stewie, and DA2 more than Origins.

[AstraDrakkar]

I didn't care for Merrill, so it isn't a priority for me. Actually I hope none of the old characters return as team members, cause there's no telling what Bioware would do with them in DA3. Look what happened to Anders. They changed his whole personality. I hated that cause I loved the Awakenings Anders.

[TEWR]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Merrill's demonstrated intelligence in a nutshell: www.youtube.com/watch

Using something from Act 1 to describe Merrill's intelligence over the course of the game is a large error in reasoning.

[Xilizhra]

... Following this logic one would assume you liked Meg more than Stewie, and DA2 more than Origins.

Both of these are true for me, although for the most part I just feel incredibly sorry for Meg and want to kill Peter.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sacred Fantasy,

Merrill may have changed since the transition between Origins and Dragon Age II,

That's the point of my post. To show Merrill personality change.

LobselVith8 wrote...
but I don't think she was a bad character. She was intelligent, proactive, and attempted to utilize ancient elven tech that she thought would be able to benefit the People across the expanse of Thedas.

It doesn't matter what you think of her. She is still a blood mage, a friend of demon and a criminal under the law of both Tevinter Imperium and Andrastian Countries. Practising Blood Magis is illegal and should not be tolerated under all circumstances. I do not tolerate criminals nor do I wish to show my compassion for them. even if they're "sweet innocent rebellious little girl next door" like Merril.

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for your example, why does dry humor make Merrill immature?

Her "dry humor" prove she's couldn't reason and evaluate like an adult.

LobselVith8 wrote...
We see her knowledge of the arcane, we see her ability to discern the nature of demons inhabiting abominations or whether a person has been possessed. I wish Hawke was as intelligent and proactive as Merrill proves to be during the seven year period of Dragon Age II, where she successfully cleanses the shard, uses the lore and information she extrapolated from the shard to reconstruct an Eluvian, and attempts to change the course of history for the People.

Her intelligence doesnt make her an adult. You could tell a toddler that playing with fire is dangerous. It wouldn't stop her to play with fire.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Furthermore, your example uses the conversation point where Merrill chastises Anders for not understanding that there's no such thing as a "good spirit." She also argues with Anders about his insistence on pushing his Andrastian views of the Fade on her - such as Spirits and Demons, the denizens of the Fade being the Children of the Maker, ect. - when she doesn't hold those religious views about the beings of the Beyond. She demonstrates her intellect and her resilience during the narrative.

She is right. There is no such thing as good spirit. Still it doesn't bother her to seek aid, bargain and befriend with her illusionary "bad" spirit (demon ).

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for your last points, everyone has doubts. Were you expecting a person, or a robot?

No, I expected her to be consistently be certain that doing anything dangerous without concern of the Keeper isn't the right thing to do and it could endanger the life of others.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill isn't perfect, she's fallible, but she sought a course of action to change things while the People were simply hoping to stumble onto something. I'm glad Merrill isn't the "average woman."

With the way BioWare write the companions in DA 2, I'd rather have average woman as my viable love interest. At least I know most average woman are consistent, won't make you worried all the time and constantly reach for your sword in case she looses her mind and bites your ass like Orsino did.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:30 .

[Xilizhra]

It doesn't matter what you think of her. She is still a blood mage, a friend of demon and a criminal under the law of both Tevinter Imperium and Andrastian Countries. Practising Blood Magis is illegal and should not be tolerated under all circumstances. I do not tolerate criminals nor do I wish to show my compassion for them. even if they're "sweet innocent rebellious little girl next door" like Merril.

The law itself is tainted, corrupt and unjust. I personally see no reason to follow unjust laws.

No, I expected her to be consistently be certain that doing anything dangerous without concern of the Keeper isn't the right thing to do and it could endanger the life of others.

The Keeper was far more dangerous than Merrill could ever be.

With the way BioWare write the companions in DA 2, I'd rather have average woman as my viable love interest. At least I know most average woman are consistent, won't make you worried all the time and constantly reach for your sword in case she looses her mind and bites your ass like Orsino did.

Merrill's in no danger from that scenario, as no hack game designers would need to make her a final boss.

[Todd23]

Xilizhra wrote...

... Following this logic one would assume you liked Meg more than Stewie, and DA2 more than Origins.

Both of these are true for me, although for the most part I just feel incredibly sorry for Meg and want to kill Peter.

... I feel an emotion I've never felt before. A mixture of hate, annoyance, and an uncontrollable glare. <_<

[Xilizhra]

Todd23 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

... Following this logic one would assume you liked Meg more than Stewie, and DA2 more than Origins.

Both of these are true for me, although for the most part I just feel incredibly sorry for Meg and want to kill Peter.

... I feel an emotion I've never felt before. A mixture of hate, annoyance, and an uncontrollable glare. <_<

I do that to a lot of people. Why in your case?

[Face of Evil]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

It doesn't matter what you think of her. She is still a blood mage, a friend of demon and a criminal under the law of both Tevinter Imperium and Andrastian Countries. Practising Blood Magis is illegal and should not be tolerated under all circumstances. I do not tolerate criminals nor do I wish to show my compassion for them. even if they're "sweet innocent rebellious little girl next door" like Merril.

By that logic, both the Warden and Hawke should be jailed for collaborating with apostates. Citizens of Thedas are required to inform the templars of illegal mages, y'know. Hawke's crimes are lengthy, but the Warden too is guilty of failing to turn in Morrigan and any Dalish keepers s/he encountered.

Plus, the Warden may have sanctioned the use of blood magic at either Redcliffe or Warden's Keep, as well as during Morrigan's ritual. That warrants a death sentence under Chantry law.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:50 .

[TEWR]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Except her personality does change. Radically.

Except it doesn't. In DAO, we interacted with Merrill in her clan -- as a clan member. She was confident then and she's just as confident in DAII when she's amongst her clan.

You're dismissing the evidence of DAII Merrill when she's in the same situations as DAO Merrill because it invalidates your argument.

The Mirror was destroyed by Duncan right in front of Merril. Everyone understand the danger of the mirror. No one try to stop Duncan.The Mirror had to be destroyed at all cost becuse the risk far outweight it's benefit.
Merrill didn't even protest a word. She didn't even complain about it. It's my understanding that she agreed by Duncan's move.

Not the moment I'm referring to. She doesn't get a chance to protest then, but IIRC before that moment she talks about her interest in the ruins themselves. The Eluvian, being a part of the ruins, would fall under something she's interested in.

No inconsistency, no retcon, etc.

She hasn't changed. She's remained internally consistent while evolving as a character to show how she'd react to external factors.

Merrill would never do things without concern of The Dalish Keeper especially when it's involved dangerous task, for example she would'nt agree to take Fanarel along unless you ask permission from the Keeper.

That's who Merrill is in DAO.

And you can find out in DAII that she approached the Keeper asking her for help on the Eluvian fragment as her first course of action.

Again, consistent.

She only turned to blood magic because: 1) She had no lyrium, 2) Marethari went on about Tamlen being tainted from his interaction with it and refused to help in any way, shape, or form.

Merrill then removed the problem, which prompted Marethari to remain stubborn in her belief that the "Eluvians are EVIL!!!". Merrill was then in the right, as Marethari didn't have a leg to stand on anymore.

They argued and, in addition to the clan's ire towards her using blood magic, she chose to exile herself as a preventive measure: if any harm should befall her, they would be kept safe from it.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Merrill in DA 2 is not only an immature dallish elf

You're right! How dare she crack a joke about kittens attacking her playfully! Such immaturity! We should all just be robots without a sense of humor!

How dare she remark playfully about how her clan acted!

Which isn't the same as her saying she was doing what they were chastised for by Marethari.

My god man, jokes are the bane of all existence! Mature people can't dare to crack a joke, lest they lose their "maturity". We should all be automatons going "Bleep Bloop Blip Bleep".

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...


Merrill DAO understoodd the need to destroy the mirror by Duncan

She never got to protest it, so to say she supported its destruction is erroneous. Given how she'll say she's interested in the ruins -- and the Eluvians are a part of the ruins -- I'd say she was supportive of learning from them in DAO.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...


Her party banter dialogues proved she has no concern for other safety despite she was well aware the risk of practising blood magic and turning into abomination,

The woman who exiled herself from the clan so that they wouldn't suffer from her choices -- if there was indeed a price attached to them -- isn't prioritizing their safety? The woman who pleads for Hawke to accompany her in the event that Audacity -- her truly last option for information on the Eluvians by Act 3, as far as she knows -- possesses her isn't prioritizing the safety of others?

The woman who makes it a point to remark on the ghastly aspects of blood magic -- calling them such, even -- and only uses her blood to fuel her magic isn't prioritizing the safety of other people?

Wow man.. you're right... she's just some heartless ****.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...


She wasn't convident as you make it,

Your entire argument was predicated on the fact that you viewed her as no longer being confident as she was in DAO.

I refuted that position by pointing out that in DAO we see her confident amongst her clan, which she retains in DAII when she's, shock of shocks, interacting with her clan!

That she has doubts about certain things outside of her clan does not mean she is not confident. Who have you known that's 100% confident about everything they believe in? That doesn't question it from time to time? I dare you to name one person who is like that. No one is certain of everything.

To want anyone, real or fictional, to measure up to some ridiculous standard is asenine.

And I never once posited that she's confident outside of her clan and inside of it. I said she's only confident when she's around her clan and if you take her to an outside environment then she's going to deal with culture shock.

In other words, quit twisting my words into saying things I never said and read what I actually wrote please.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...


She is right. There is no such thing as good spirit. Still it doesn't bother her to seek aid, bargain and befriend with her illusionary "bad" spirit (demon ).

I fail to see how tricking a Demon that's trapped in a demonic Buddha statue and sundered from the Fade into helping her is a bad course of action, especially when Marethari herself said it was trapped and could do no harm to anyone.

Or how we find out that Audacity's limited powers only work based on proximity -- the closer a person is to him, the more he can influence them.

Or how we find out that Merrill hasn't talked to him in seven years and only goes back to him in Act 3 after she's exhausted all other options.

Or how we know that blood magic isn't tied to the Fade, but to the physical realm -- unless you're purposefully using a spell that tears the Veil, but those are very specific spells that Merrill doesn't know and doesn't want to know.

I fail to see any danger in this sequence, unless someone foolishly frees the Demon by casting magic on his prison -- which hey, Marethari did and Merrill had no intention of doing!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 novembre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Xilizhra wrote...

It doesn't matter what you think of her. She is still a blood mage, a friend of demon and a criminal under the law of both Tevinter Imperium and Andrastian Countries. Practising Blood Magis is illegal and should not be tolerated under all circumstances. I do not tolerate criminals nor do I wish to show my compassion for them. even if they're "sweet innocent rebellious little girl next door" like Merril.

The law itself is tainted, corrupt and unjust. I personally see no reason to follow unjust laws.

You're not the one who makes the law. You're not the one who proposes, debates,evaluates and votes either as Tervinter  Magister or appointed council members or appointed chantry policy makers. Your personal opnion whether the law is unjust or not, bear no meaning to the Magister law enforcers or local templars or local city guards. Until you govern your own country, you have no right other than to abide the law or to be treated as criminal.     

Xilizhra wrote...

No, I expected her to be consistently be certain that doing anything dangerous without concern of the Keeper isn't the right thing to do and it could endanger the life of others.

The Keeper was far more dangerous than Merrill could ever be.

The Keeper is responsible for her clan. To keep everyone safe including guests. A task  that juvenile Merril  could never understand. 

Xilizhra wrote...

With the way BioWare write the companions in DA 2, I'd rather have average woman as my viable love interest. At least I know most average woman are consistent, won't make you worried all the time and constantly reach for your sword in case she looses her mind and bites your ass like Orsino did.

Merrill's in no danger from that scenario, as no hack game designers would need to make her a final boss.

Hack game designers?
Are you one of the hack game designers? What make you think you speak for them?

[Xilizhra]

You're not the one who makes the law. You're not the one who proposes, debates,evaluates and votes either as Tervinter Magister or appointed council members or appointed chantry policy makers. Your personal opnion whether the law is unjust or not, bear no meaning to the Magister law enforcers or local templars or local city guards. Until you govern your own country, you have no right other than to abide the law or to be treated as criminal.

I'm fine with being treated as a criminal by the templars. I'll keep on killing them until they back off, as I did in DA2. Their laws mean nothing to me.

The Keeper is responsible for her clan. To keep everyone safe including guests. A task that juvenile Merril could never understand.

And Marethari completely botched it.

Hack game designers?
Are you one of the hack game designers? What make you think you speak for them?

It's been admitted that Orsino was never supposed to be a boss during mage playthroughs, but the designers forced it on the writers.

[TEWR]

You're not the one who makes the law. You're not the one who proposes, debates,evaluates and votes either as Tervinter Magister or appointed council members or appointed chantry policy makers. Your personal opnion whether the law is unjust or not, bear no meaning to the Magister law enforcers or local templars or local city guards. Until you govern your own country, you have no right other than to abide the law or to be treated as criminal.

You do realize that in Tevinter, despite blood magic being illegal, it's regularly practiced and the laws against it aren't enforced? Because the Magisters make the laws, control the enforcement of the laws, control the Chantry, and for all intents and purposes are the law?

Saying Merrill's breaking a law that Tevinter has is foolish, considering Tevinter law is broken all the time.

And so what if she's breaking a White Chantry law? The laws are broken by the party all the time. Hawke's breaking the law by virtue of being an apostate/sheltering apostates. Anders is breaking the law by being an Abomination apostate. He should also be arrested by your logic. Fenris should be arrested for squatting in Danarius' mansion. The entire character group in both games should be arrested for the murders they do at times.

Hack game designers?
Are you one of the hack game designers? What make you think you speak for them?

Bioware admitted that for pro-mage players, Orsino was only made a boss fight for gameplay purposes and not actual story purposes.

I'd say that qualifies as being poor game design, when gameplay is given higher precedence then the story.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 novembre 2012 - 06:33 .

[Gamercat]

Xilizhra wrote...

... Following this logic one would assume you liked Meg more than Stewie, and DA2 more than Origins.

Both of these are true for me, although for the most part I just feel incredibly sorry for Meg and want to kill Peter.

I feel sorry for meg as well! Poor thing. 

[efrgfhnm_]

It is possible for her to die, seems unlikely they'd bring her back since in some save games she is dead...
I know devs confirmed Ander's death is final, cant remember if they've said about others but probably stands to reason that if it applies to one it applies to all