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[HTTP 404]

Exile Isan wrote...

I see the the world of Thedas being a lot like the world of Toril in The Forgotten Realms. Toril has no true "x vs y" theme, but it rather a place for several different stories to take place in the same world with different themes. Where you have things like the Cult of the Dragon or the Zents or just a single man like Jon Irenicus as enemies. Thedas is a little more restricted than Toril is, as far as lore is concerned (but that may just be because of age, The Realms is a lot older than Dragon Age), but their lack of a central theme/enemy is the same.

Yah, I am beginning to see it like this as well.  What I thought Dragon Age is all about from DA:O is clearly not the case after what DA2's story is about.  The dragon age universe is fairly new in comparison to Star Wars and LOTR, where most of us have grown up knowing what elements and themes are prevalent in those universes.  We don't know enough of the Dragon Age universe.

Forgotten Realms is a good analogy for Dragon Age.   what still bugs me is the sequel connection DA2 has with DA:O when they focus on a different story and have different protagonists.

[esper]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Q: What Star wars is about?
A : it is about the battle between light and dark Forces, represented by Jedi and Sith, it involve in galactic politic, in the end the messiah bring balance to the Force

Q; What LotR is about?
A : It is about an ancient evil creating rings, given to leaders of the world, corrupting them, one ring rule over the others, the ring must be destroyed, in the end, it is destroyed

Q: What TES is about?
A: TES is about leaders of Imperial power who have dragon blood, they who defend the world from all evil.

Q : What Dragon Age is all about?
A : I don't know...

If you think TES is about the dragon born you simply can't have played the series as a whole. TES is about The Elder Scrolls, or to be more precise I would guess it is about the profecies in them. There have been one, one dragon born in all of the series.

Skyrim is about the dragon born, sort of, because the dragon born is the protagonist. TES not so much.

Stories, escpially frachnises moves on, they develops. The conflicts presented in the first piece of the series/frachnise might not be the same as the conflict on the last piece. Espically in a world like dragon age where da2 cemented one and for all that status quo is not god. 

Which quite frankly I am gratefull for.

At this point you are coming across as... Well, quite frankly I can't say what you come across as because it would be considerable rude, but I have never met a person with such an inflexible view on narratives as you, and considering I study littarature and thus have read a lot of theories, that is saying a lot.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

David Gaider wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
I wish darkspawn were the storyline. The mage vs templar story is looking more like a soap drama instead of "an adventure where a hero goes on a quest." Why can't we have that?

I am really not interested in this story even if it is told really well. I cannot sympathized for either side of this "conflict." Am I alone in this??

You don't even know what the story is, or how the conflict will play out, but you've already decided it's something you don't like and want something else instead?

Sure, we'll get right on that.

Good on the DA writers for trying to something different in a CRPG with a fantasy setting. Dragon Age has elements of both high fantasy (dragons, dwarves, elves, spirit world or plane in the form of the Fade, magic, demons) and elements of dark fantasy: those bits of grey and grey morality, a prime example being the succession war between Harrowmont and Bhelen, the fact that serving as a Grey Warden is grim and ends in premature death one way or another and that Wardens will sometimes commit acts in which the ends justify the means, no matter how horrible those means might be, instead of the Wardens just being a bunch of noble, heroic do-gooders *yawn*.

Personally I thought the Darkspawn were a good take on the traditional "evil horde" so common in heroic fantasy, but what I liked best about the Blight was that it served as a great backdrop to everything else that was going on as the Warden was trying to unite Ferleden against the threat of the Archdemon. Sure that was "an adventure where a hero goes on a quest.", but that doesn't mean the whole series needs to be limited to this sort of basic and overdone plot.

I like the Mage vs Templar conflict and I look forward to seeing how it's going to play out. I guess for some people it's a very polarizing issue. I tend to find myself sympathizing with the Mages; they're not all bad people and they're not all going to be possessed by demons otherwise Thedas would have been overrun by demons ages ago. Like the mutants in Marvel Comics' X-Men and related series, they're just men and women born with an innate ability. It's perhaps in their best interest and the interest of others that they learn to master their powers, but to assume that every single on of them is an abomination waiting to happen, power-hungry, or secretly an evil blood-mage is a line of thinking borne of fear, misunderstaning and deep-seated religious superstition.

Others favour the Templar way of thinking. I roleplay Hawkes who think that way, but it doesn't feel genuine in my case. I'm not writing this to disparage those who support the Templars, so I'm going to stop right here.

As for those who don't find the Templar vs Mage issue, hopefully there will be enough going on peripherally to keep them interested in Inquisition, otherwise they might want to consider sitting this one out...

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 02 décembre 2012 - 02:48 .

[henkez3]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
I wish darkspawn were the storyline. The mage vs templar story is looking more like a soap drama instead of "an adventure where a hero goes on a quest." Why can't we have that?

I am really not interested in this story even if it is told really well. I cannot sympathized for either side of this "conflict." Am I alone in this??

You don't even know what the story is, or how the conflict will play out, but you've already decided it's something you don't like and want something else instead?

Sure, we'll get right on that.

Good on the DA writers for trying to something different in a CRPG with a fantasy setting. Dragon Age has elements of both high fantasy (dragons, dwarves, elves, spirit world or plane in the form of the Fade, magic, demons) and elements of dark fantasy: those bits of grey and grey morality, a prime example being the succession war between Harrowmont and Bhelen, the fact that serving as a Grey Warden is grim and ends in premature death one way or another and that Wardens will sometimes commit acts in which the ends justify the means, no matter how horrible those means might be, instead of the Wardens just being a bunch of noble, heroic do-gooders *yawn*.

Personally I thought the Darkspawn were a good take on the traditional "evil horde" so common in heroic fantasy, but what I liked best about the Blight was that it served as a great backdrop to everything else that was going on as the Warden was trying to unite Ferleden against the threat of the Archdemon. Sure that was "an adventure where a hero goes on a quest.", but that doesn't mean the whole series needs to be limited to this sort of basic and overdone plot.

I like the Mage vs Templar conflict and I look forward to seeing how it's going to play out. I guess for some people it's a very polarizing issue. I tend to find myself sympathizing with the Mages; they're not all bad people and they're not all going to be possessed by demons otherwise Thedas would have been overrun by demons ages ago. Like the mutants in Marvel Comics' X-Men and related series, they're just men and women born with an innate ability. It's perhaps in their best interest and the interest of others that they learn to master their powers, but to assume that every single on of them is an abomination waiting to happen, power-hungry, or secretly an evil blood-mage is a line of thinking borne of fear, misunderstaning and deep-seated religious superstition.

Others favour the Templar way of thinking. I roleplay Hawkes who think that way, but it doesn't feel genuine in my case. I'm not writing this to disparage those who support the Templars, so I'm going to stop right here.

As for those who don't find the Templar vs Mage issue, hopefully there will be enough going on peripherally to keep them interested in Inquisition, otherwise they might want to consider sitting this one out...

This, so much this. It's so great to finally have a world where I'm not just the hero who goes to destroy the great evil. It's somehow more relatable to involve yourself in the Templar vs Mage issue than just be yet another hero who simply goes to save the day against the big bad evil, in the case of DA2 and 3 you're the to sort out a conflict, something more political and less bashy evul monstery. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED DA:O and A, I LOVE killing hordes of darkspawn and the mystery surrounding the darkspawn, archdemons and the other fuzzy things about the first blight are VERY interesting. What I'm trying to say amidst all this rambling is that it's nice to get to know the world of DA in a different light than the traditional herioc fashion.

I also can't helpt but think that David Gaider and the other writers get a lot of satisfaction in seeing people getting so involved with the moral issues surrounding the mage/templar conflict (and other conflicts), seeing that kind of response must be pretty great as a writer.

The rest of I don't agree with you on Teyrn of Whatever, I'm a staunch supporter of the templars. Although not Meredith, she was crazy.


(So was Orsino)

[TEWR]

I think my brain is starting to die now...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Nizaris actually has a point about the focus of TES as a whole. The first game revolved around saving the emperor, the second and third you were sent to do something for him, the fourth revolved around you helping his also dragonborn heir, and the fifth, you are a dragonborn. So, TES is about the dragonborn, or at least they are a substantial plot point.

Please bear in mind, however, that this has nothing to do with Dragon Age being about the darkspawn. I think she's holding that point well past the point of reasonableness or sanity.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:18 .

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think my brain is starting to die now...

Aha! He's vulnerable, and now for the finishing blow!

http://icanhas.cheezburger.com/lolcats

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, the darkspawn thing is only one of the reasons mages are hated. The main reason is the Tevinter Imperium and blood magic, with the darkspawn blights being only a part of this. Most of the arguments the templars give as to mages needing to be contained revolve around more typical blood magic, usually either mind control or demonology. (Edit: Well, that, or the whole "can incontinently turn into an abomination" thing.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:45 .

[Icesong]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If you think TES is about the dragon born you simply can't have played the series as a whole. TES is about The Elder Scrolls, or to be more precise I would guess it is about the profecies in them. There have been one, one dragon born in all of the series.

Skyrim is about the dragon born, sort of, because the dragon born is the protagonist. TES not so much.

No, the whole TES is about Dragonborn, because the Dragonborn is the one who protect the world from evil. Without Dragonborn, all matter of evil come into the world. That is why the Imperial become the Imperial, the Emperor not just a ruler of physical realm, but spiritual realm too. Only that in Skyrim we play as Dragonborn our self. The whole TES is about Dragonborn.

Most people play TES not even realize the core story, because TES is open world, most player only look everything in own personal character eyes.

Again, Book of the Dragonborn, first book you should have read: 

"Many people have heard the term "Dragonborn" - we are of course ruled by the "Dragonborn Emperors" - but the true meaning of the term is not commonly understood."

You're conflating two unrelated things. What you're talking about is this. Skyrim's Dragonborn, the Dovahkiin, has nothing to do with this. Nothing. And either way you might recall that the entire point of Oblivion's ending and Martin's sacrifice was to remove the need for Dragonfires.

Modifié par Icesong, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:48 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

The rest of I don't agree with you on Teyrn of Whatever, I'm a staunch supporter of the templars. Although not Meredith, she was crazy.


(So was Orsino)

I'm not a big fan of Orsino either. One can be pro-mage and dislike him easily enough. I do like Anders and find him easy to sympathize with, up to the point where he blows up the Chantry and crosses the moral event horizon.

That's the beauty of the Templar vs Mage conflict: it's not black and white, not good versus evil. It's a murky issue where both sides are right and wrong in their own respects. I for one don't believe that mages using their power without responsibility is the right way to go. I also think that religious fanatics can do a hell of a lot of damage of a different sort, which is why I'm not a fan of cloistered militant orders like the Templars or crusades like the Exalted Marches.

The Tevinter Imperium have made mage freedom possible, but by flipping the traditional social hierarchy around on its head and twisting the Chantry around to serve their purposes. The Imperium promotes slavery, which I strongly oppose (as do the majority of my DA characters), and is decadent, corrupt, and uses magic in incredibly irresponsible, even arguably evil ways.

I believe a middle ground can be reached. I don't think that mage freedom automatically equals Tevinter or worse. I guess I'm more Professor X than Magneto. I believe mages and ordinary mortals can learn to coexist and that mages can learn to control their powers. Demons can be fought and defeated and the possessed can be freed from being abominations (Connor, if a certain path is chosen in DA:O). Chaos or domination by mages is not the inevitable outcome of the Chantry, the Templars and law loosening its grip on mages.

[Icesong]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Nizaris actually has a point about the focus of TES as a whole. The first game revolved around saving the emperor, the second and third you were sent to do something for him, the fourth revolved around you helping his also dragonborn heir, and the fifth, you are a dragonborn. So, TES is about the dragonborn, or at least they are a substantial plot point.

Please bear in mind, however, that this has nothing to do with Dragon Age being about the darkspawn. I think she's holding that point well past the point of reasonableness or sanity.

Saying that Morrowind was about Uriel Septim because he allowed for your release is rather weird. Morrowind did however introduce Vivec, who in turn introduced things like Landfall, CHIM and Godhead. Far more important concepts in TES.

Modifié par Icesong, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:00 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, the darkspawn thing is only one of the reasons mages are hated.

The darkspawn thing only holds mages responsible according to Chantry lore. Whether it is true or not has yet to be determined. Even if it is, while it's understandable that people would stigmatize mages for it, it's an example of blaming the children for the sins of the father.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Icesong wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Nizaris actually has a point about the focus of TES as a whole. The first game revolved around saving the emperor, the second and third you were sent to do something for him, the fourth revolved around you helping his also dragonborn heir, and the fifth, you are a dragonborn. So, TES is about the dragonborn, or at least they are a substantial plot point.

Please bear in mind, however, that this has nothing to do with Dragon Age being about the darkspawn. I think she's holding that point well past the point of reasonableness or sanity.

Saying that Morrowind was about Uriel Septim because he allowed for your release is rather weird. Morrowind did however introduce Vivec, who in turn introduced things like Landfall, CHIM and Godhead. Far more important concepts in TES.

The kickoff for the story was the emperor plotting to fulfill a prophecy in such a way as suited himself. And that's what happens. Really, the emperor won the game through you.

I'm not saying that the emperor was on screen killing people all game. I'm just saying that either he or another dragonborn played a large part in all five games.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:10 .

[Icesong]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The kickoff for the story was the emperor plotting to fulfill a prophecy in such a way as suited himself. And that's what happens. Really, the emperor won the game through you.

Well, shouldn't you be giving the credit to Azura with that kind of thinking?

I'm not saying that the emperor was on screen killing people all game. I'm just saying that either he or another dragonborn played a large part in all five games.

But Uriel Septim wasn't really a Dragonborn. And his role in 2 and 3 were very minor, if interesting.

Modifié par Icesong, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:21 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Icesong wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The kickoff for the story was the emperor plotting to fulfill a prophecy in such a way as suited himself. And that's what happens. Really, the emperor won the game through you.

Well, shouldn't you be giving the credit to Azura with that kind of thinking?

She gets some. But she didn't have a comparable role in the other four, which was my point concerning the dragonborn.

I'm not saying that the emperor was on screen killing people all game. I'm just saying that either he or another dragonborn played a large part in all five games.

But Uriel Septim wasn't really a Dragonborn. And his role in 2 and 3 were very minor, if interesting.

I thought the idea was only a dragonborn could light the altar, and that you weren't technically the emperor until you did so?

Minor, but essential. He set three into motion, and you spend the whole main plot following a plot he came up with. And iirc the second game starts with the player getting shipwrecked while on an errand from him.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:35 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Just a part of or the main issue of everything in DA world?

That's Chantry propaganda.

They might believe it's true, but anybody who plays DAII: Legacy learns that the Chantry doesn't have their facts straight.


1. The Black City was black when the Magisters got there. What made it go black, if it ever was gold at all, is unknown. I believe David Gaider even implied it at a Pax event once before DAII even came out. Don't remember the exact explaination and don't feel like looking it up. But I know it's the same Pax where he confirmed that Cailan was going to divorce Anora, and where he revealed that phylacteries are blood magic.

2. They didn't enter believing they were usurping the Maker. They believed it belonged to the old gods and they were promised it by them.

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
I wish darkspawn were the storyline. The mage vs templar story is looking more like a soap drama instead of "an adventure where a hero goes on a quest." Why can't we have that?

I am really not interested in this story even if it is told really well. I cannot sympathized for either side of this "conflict." Am I alone in this??

You don't even know what the story is, or how the conflict will play out, but you've already decided it's something you don't like and want something else instead?

Sure, we'll get right on that.

Wasn't Dragon Age supposed to be "a story of the world?" But I'm guessing it has something to do with Dragons.

You guys also imply that Flemeth is a big part of the overall plot. And The Silent Grove and the Stolen Throne shed a little light on her plans.

In The Stolen Throne, Flemeth mades a bargain with Maric to ensure his and Loghain's survival in the wilds. In Silent Grove, Yavana reveals that promise was to let her use his blood to revive dragons. Not to mention it also sheds a little light on other things. In the novel, Maric appeared from Flemeth's hut shaken and uncharacteristically quiet, and at the battle of River Dane, the High Dragon had been spotted and the new age named, meaning Flemeth probably helped herself to some of Maric's blood as a forward payment.

Not to mention most of the events in Dragon Age are because of her actions. Saving Maric means Alistair gets born and he and the Warden are at Ostagar for her to rescue and set on their path. Then she conveniently comes across Hawke and gives him her horcrux(for lack of a better term, I'll just use what Rowling called Voldemort's "fragments") which allowed her to escape being slain by Morrigan's actions. If she hadn't done either of these things, the future of Thedas would be drastically different. Not to mention she wants the soul of an old god for some reason.

So if I had to make an assumption based on what I've seen. Flemeth is some kind of extremely manipulative dragon-sorceress who wants to make Dragons the dominant race of the world(she acts like she hates the world for some personal grudge that's a bit more harsh than the old legends about her.) And she's paving the way to fulfilling her plans using the player characters and other important people.

The Dalish are also compliant with her, implying they know what she is. And considering that Morrigan actually didn't seem to mind Sten too much(proud and powerful creature) implies that Flemeth's grudge is mainly focused on humans, who hunted the dragons nearly to extinction. And by extension, the Chantry.

[Icesong]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The kickoff for the story was the emperor plotting to fulfill a prophecy in such a way as suited himself. And that's what happens. Really, the emperor won the game through you.

Well, shouldn't you be giving the credit to Azura with that kind of thinking?

She gets some. But she didn't have a comparable role in the other four, which was my point concerning the dragonborn.

I'm not saying that the emperor was on screen killing people all game. I'm just saying that either he or another dragonborn played a large part in all five games.

But Uriel Septim wasn't really a Dragonborn. And his role in 2 and 3 were very minor, if interesting.

I thought the idea was only a dragonborn could light the altar, and that you weren't technically the emperor until you did so?

Minor, but essential. He set three into motion, and you spend the whole main plot following a plot he came up with. And iirc the second game starts with the player getting shipwrecked while on an errand from him.

There's two ways "Dragonborn" as a term is used:

To refer to purported descendants of Alessia, Reman Cyrodiil, and Tiber Septim
To refer to what you are in Skyrim,  let's call it Dovahkiin

And one has nothing to do with the other. You aren't related to any of the imperial lines, and there were other Dovahkiin who weren't either. And your purposes are different as well. The Emperors and Empresses were supposed to keep the Dragonfires lit to protect against Oblivion, while you were merely supposed to stop Alduin; who's not a daedra and has nothing to do with Oblivion.

Modifié par Icesong, 02 décembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[Heimdall]

To say that TES is all about the Dragonborn, even if you included Uriel Septim, is a bit of a stretch. Rarely are they the focus of the plot and often something more prominent takes the spotlight. A common recurring aspect does not mean that the series is all about that.

[Icesong]

Lord Aesir wrote...

To say that TES is all about the Dragonborn, even if you included Uriel Septim, is a bit of a stretch. Rarely are they the focus of the plot and often something more prominent takes the spotlight. A common recurring aspect does not mean that the series is all about that.

I can't believe I even have to argue that a world as vast as TES with so many other things going on has mainly been about this thing that didn't get introduced until game 4. And was resolved in the same game...

Just as a reminder of why we're even discussing this: Nizaris is trying to deny that there are franchises out there that can exist on the power of the world alone, not needing a persistent and overarching storyline.

Modifié par Icesong, 02 décembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not only havn't the Dragonborn been the focus of any other game than SKyrim, the Dragonborn of Skyrim is not even the same kind of dragonborn as the Emperors of tthe Septim line are.... So Nizaris is entirely wrong about this...