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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The only thing I think you say is a core aspect about a TES game is that a Dragonborn is involved to varying degrees of directness and relevance.

It's a connecting thread at best. I wouldn't really call it a Theme.

Maybe that, then. Though they do tend to be driving forces in the plot, again with Daggerfall as the rule-proving exception.

[Heimdall]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not arguing it's about the concept, I'm arguing that it's about the dragonborn themselves. The emperor was introduced in the very first game.

Besides, I already dropped the point about the Nerevarine being Dragonborn, since I thought of another explanation that made more sense. But that was never my main point regarding that game. The idea is the plot of that game ties into the series-wide theme because ultimately the main plot consists of you doing exactly what the emperor has planned.

If that were the theme, then Skyrim wouldn't fit into it.  Heck, you can kill the Emperor in Skyrim.

Was that emperor dragonborn? I thought the emperors stopped being dragonborn when Martin died. (Or Uriel, since I don't know if Martin actually counts as an emperor.)

Probably not, I was only addressing the point about doing as the Emperor wants.  It wouldn't be the first time unrelated bloodlines took over the Empire and yet continued to be Dragonborn.

[Heimdall]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The only thing I think you say is a core aspect about a TES game is that a Dragonborn is involved to varying degrees of directness and relevance.

It's a connecting thread at best. I wouldn't really call it a Theme.

Maybe that, then. Though they do tend to be driving forces in the plot, again with Daggerfall as the rule-proving exception.

They tend to help set things in motion, yeah, but the plot isn't really about them usually.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not arguing it's about the concept, I'm arguing that it's about the dragonborn themselves. The emperor was introduced in the very first game.

Besides, I already dropped the point about the Nerevarine being Dragonborn, since I thought of another explanation that made more sense. But that was never my main point regarding that game. The idea is the plot of that game ties into the series-wide theme because ultimately the main plot consists of you doing exactly what the emperor has planned.

If that were the theme, then Skyrim wouldn't fit into it.  Heck, you can kill the Emperor in Skyrim.

Was that emperor dragonborn? I thought the emperors stopped being dragonborn when Martin died. (Or Uriel, since I don't know if Martin actually counts as an emperor.)

Probably not, I was only addressing the point about doing as the Emperor wants.  It wouldn't be the first time unrelated bloodlines took over the Empire and yet continued to be Dragonborn.

Okay, but my point was less about the emperors themselves and more about the dragonborn. So, Emperor Medes (I think that's his name) doesn't fit, but the non-emperor you're playing as does. The difference being that instead of being the dragonborn now being in charge of you, the dragonborn is you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The only thing I think you say is a core aspect about a TES game is that a Dragonborn is involved to varying degrees of directness and relevance.

It's a connecting thread at best. I wouldn't really call it a Theme.

Maybe that, then. Though they do tend to be driving forces in the plot, again with Daggerfall as the rule-proving exception.

They tend to help set things in motion, yeah, but the plot isn't really about them usually.

Hey, 3/5 is more than half. And you're essentially the emperor's puppet in Morrowind's plot, so I'd say that counts for another half. Point is, this is a pretty major connecting thread.

[Icesong]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Again, just becaue they added to what a dragonborn was doesn't mean the previously established dragonborn were irrelevant. And if you're saying that these two groups are different, Tiber Septim doesn't seem to be. And to establish that there are two different groups seems to be needlessly multiplying entities. And since my point was that the group of which both are members seems to be the focus of the main plots of each game, I don't see how it's relevant anyway. (I apologize if that last bit was unclear in my previous posts.)

It didn't add to previous understanding, it changed it entirely. I've said "entirely" a lot today. And I am saying these two groups are different, but as I mentioned Tiber Septim was Dovahkiin. The part after that is what gets confusing. And interesting. 

Yeah, that's one of the points I didn't co-sign to. And just because the emperor's involvement in the third was minor doesn't mean it doesn't tie into the theme I'm describing. He's the one who masterminded the Nerevarine getting to Morrowind, and for his own benefit. The plot of the game is to a large extent his doing.

Still say Azura was far more impactful than the Emperor was.

I don't think the first, fourth, or fifth relate to Godhead.

Indeed, but Godhead is clearly more important than the Dragonborn. The most prominent of many things that are. Was joking anyway, usually when Godhead is brought up it renders all other discussion moot.

To say the Dragonborn, in any fashion, are a theme is just way too strong a term for me to accept. A recurring element at best. 

Modifié par Icesong, 02 décembre 2012 - 09:30 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Icesong wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Again, just becaue they added to what a dragonborn was doesn't mean the previously established dragonborn were irrelevant. And if you're saying that these two groups are different, Tiber Septim doesn't seem to be. And to establish that there are two different groups seems to be needlessly multiplying entities. And since my point was that the group of which both are members seems to be the focus of the main plots of each game, I don't see how it's relevant anyway. (I apologize if that last bit was unclear in my previous posts.)

It didn't add to previous understanding, it changed it entirely. I've said "entirely" a lot today. And I am saying these two groups are different, but as I mentioned Tiber Septim was Dovahkiin. The part after that is what gets confusing. And interesting.  

Yeah, but just because the understanding of the term changed doesn't mean the previous games didn't involve dragonborn. And I don't think you answered my point that I was referring to the two groups as a whole driving the plot. (I'm still not convinced they're different, because the Septim dragonborn had some unusual abilities, and because Talos was a member of both groups. I  think it's needlessly complicated for there to be two groups, with all that said.)

Yeah, that's one of the points I didn't co-sign to. And just because the emperor's involvement in the third was minor doesn't mean it doesn't tie into the theme I'm describing. He's the one who masterminded the Nerevarine getting to Morrowind, and for his own benefit. The plot of the game is to a large extent his doing.

Still say Azura was far more impactful than the Emperor was.

Yeah, but through the emperor. Meanwhile, all she's got her hands in is Morrowind. The emperor has roughly the same bit of impact in this game as she does, plus three out of the remaining four revolve around either him or another dragonborn. That's what I'm saying.

I don't think the first, fourth, or fifth relate to Godhead.

Indeed, but Godhead is clearly more important than the Dragonborn. The most prominent of many things that are.

I dunno. Godhead drives two of the games. The Dragonborn drive three, and one of them is an important if minor element in one of Godhead's games. That same dragonborn inadvertantly drives the plot of the other game, and I'd forgotten that the item you're searching for was a relic used by Tiber Septim.

Was joking anyway, usually when Godhead is brought up it renders all other discussion moot.

Nice.

To say the Dragonborn, in any fashion, are a theme is just way too strong a term for me to accept. A recurring element at best. 

Recurring element, drives the plot. Maybe theme wasn't the right word, but I still think they're still largely the plot.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 décembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[Heimdall]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
The only thing I think you say is a core aspect about a TES game is that a Dragonborn is involved to varying degrees of directness and relevance.

It's a connecting thread at best. I wouldn't really call it a Theme.

Maybe that, then. Though they do tend to be driving forces in the plot, again with Daggerfall as the rule-proving exception.

They tend to help set things in motion, yeah, but the plot isn't really about them usually.

Hey, 3/5 is more than half. And you're essentially the emperor's puppet in Morrowind's plot, so I'd say that counts for another half. Point is, this is a pretty major connecting thread.

I really find your Morrowind point debatable.  At any rate, I never denied that it was there, but I suppose I'm beginning to confuse myself since I still don't quite consider an Emperor Dragonborn and the Skyrim Dragonborn to be the same thing, let alone the first game when being a Dragonborn hadn't been thought of yet.  Especially since those 2/3 games occurred right in the middle of the series.  Dragonborn really only became a big deal in the most recent titles.

Like I said, connecting thread is really how I see it.

[Silfren]

I love how suddenly the main discussion died out completely and now it's just two people having a private session about The Elder Scrolls. Thread drift is awesome. =)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

I love how suddenly the main discussion died out completely and now it's just two people having a private session about The Elder Scrolls. Thread drift is awesome. =)

Three. But we should move it someplace else. Off-topic section?

[Heimdall]

I think I'm done, thanks for the discussion though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I think I'm done, thanks for the discussion though.

Anytime.

Edit: Especially when I have homework I need a distraction from.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 décembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[AlexanderCousland]

What a funny read the forums are!

So. The story is about the world, However, a very large chunk of what connects us to this world is from DAO. I beleive we can discuss a Warden's playthrough and it will be a very very different tale with each person, the only part of the tale thats the same would be that the Archdemon was slain and our hero was a warden.

With Hawke, You got rich in a tunnel, You had to deal with the Arishok, and You chose the mages or Templars.

Youre stuck in a **** hole city the whole time, and your end goal is virtually aimless. So, if this story is about the world...wtf is kirkwall about? The Mages (anders) bombed a circle? We know from the beginning of the game the Mages rebelled. Varric foreshadowed that. What I cant figure out is Hawke's purpose...wtf did Hawke have to do with anything? Lol, I mean, you could read Asunder instead of DA2, and you would still miss out on very little, The Mages & Templars are going to fight. So What!!!! What does MY character have to do with that...please tell me!


No, seriously, someone tell me please. Shed some light on Hawke for me?

At this point it feels like every companion hawke had was more important to the story.

The World. Lol. Give me a break. Id have an easier time beleiving that if i didnt play a dude who watched all his companions go haywire without being able to do anything about it, or obtain any political power until the end of the game, and then he had none because it was over.

What exactly is this story about anyway? Im on the brink of sayin buck it.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

No, seriously, someone tell me please. Shed some light on Hawke for me?

At this point it feels like every companion hawke had was more important to the story.

The World. Lol. Give me a break. Id have an easier time beleiving that if i didnt play a dude who watched all his companions go haywire without being able to do anything about it, or obtain any political power until the end of the game, and then he had none because it was over.

What exactly is this story about anyway? Im on the brink of sayin buck it.

The purpose of Hawke was Hawke's story of fleeing the Blight, rising in social status, saving Kirkwall from what would have been a much bloodier battle with the Qunari, and witnessing a major event in the history of mages and Templars.

Its a personal story, not one about saving the world.  Admittedly, it was not done as well as it could have been.

What part of it being about the world means it has to give you major power over the world?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 03 décembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[DarkSpiral]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Its a personal story, not one about saving the world.  Admittedly, it was not done as well as it could have been.

What part of it being about the world means it has to give you major power over the world?

You're feeding the troll.  You know this, yes?

[Heimdall]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Its a personal story, not one about saving the world.  Admittedly, it was not done as well as it could have been.

What part of it being about the world means it has to give you major power over the world?

You're feeding the troll.  You know this, yes?

I couldn't tell.  Some people on this thread have proven remarkably dimwitted.

[Silfren]

FreshIstay wrote...

What a funny read the forums are!

So. The story is about the world, However, a very large chunk of what connects us to this world is from DAO. I beleive we can discuss a Warden's playthrough and it will be a very very different tale with each person, the only part of the tale thats the same would be that the Archdemon was slain and our hero was a warden.

With Hawke, You got rich in a tunnel, You had to deal with the Arishok, and You chose the mages or Templars.

Youre stuck in a **** hole city the whole time, and your end goal is virtually aimless. So, if this story is about the world...wtf is kirkwall about? The Mages (anders) bombed a circle? We know from the beginning of the game the Mages rebelled. Varric foreshadowed that. What I cant figure out is Hawke's purpose...wtf did Hawke have to do with anything? Lol, I mean, you could read Asunder instead of DA2, and you would still miss out on very little, The Mages & Templars are going to fight. So What!!!! What does MY character have to do with that...please tell me!


No, seriously, someone tell me please. Shed some light on Hawke for me?

At this point it feels like every companion hawke had was more important to the story.

The World. Lol. Give me a break. Id have an easier time beleiving that if i didnt play a dude who watched all his companions go haywire without being able to do anything about it, or obtain any political power until the end of the game, and then he had none because it was over.

What exactly is this story about anyway? Im on the brink of sayin buck it.

The Dragon Age games are stories about the world of Thedas.  Much as DA2 did suffer from various problems, nevertheless, it was a story about Kirkwall.  Whatever can be said about the game's failings, that remains true regardless.  The first story introduced us to Thedas by way of Ferelden, and also introduced us to several of the varied conflicts between peoples within, and without, that nation.  The second story was set in Kirkwall and shed some light on the political goings-on of that and other cities in the Free Marches, as well as giving us a taste of the weakening power structure of the Chantry.  It also gave us even more hints about conflicts introduced in Origins--the looming threat of another Qunari war.  The next game is, far as I can tell, going to be set in Orlais and possibly also Tevinter.  That alone will give us a first-hand look at the political state of Orlais during a time of civil war, ON TOP of the full-fledged war between mages and templars, and if Tevinter is included, also a firsthand perspective on the ongoing war between the Qunari and Tevinter.

Conflict, conflict, conflict.  War, war, war.  This is ultimately what Dragon Age is about.  So far, all two stories we've received have been about some conflict within the world, and DA3 is slated to be more of the same.  It isn't hard to see this unless one wants to be willfully obtuse.

[AlexanderCousland]

@Silfren

Kirkwall is part of the world of Thedas thefore DA2 is about the world.
This is techinically true, the operative word being technically.

In my opinion DA2 didnt "shed light on anything". Sten already told us Qunari will invade. So that was Inevitable regardless if Isabela stole the relic or not. In DA2's opening scence Varric already said the Chantry/Circle was lost. So the whole point of the playthrough was meaningless, I mean unless you have a fancy for your companions, seems they had more important sortylines than the protaginist. I'll go with the dev's description "a rise to power" although we never see that power realized. Inside the DA2 story itself how the PC's actions impact the free marches is not realized either. DA2 was about Hawke's companions A.K.A Gaider's (and company) "Word Babies". It wasnt about anything special our character did, in essence we were just "along for the ride".

My DA2 summary/rant :

Playing Hawke, for me, was like "okay, im going an expedition why? Oh to get rich okay", Im rich now! The game manufactured me a mansion that i didnt spend any gold on! Okay what now, Oh my companions have issues, I guess im a therapist, "would you like to talk about it after we clear a dungeon Anders?" okay, i solved everyones crap! What now, " oh the bullheaded giant is pissed cause my GF/friend stole his book!, heres your book back, no you cant have her, Die!" okay, Im a champion because I got the bullheaded giant to leave. What's next? Anders blows up the chantry! "WTF MAN!" now choose mages or templars. Okay I killed both physcopaths. What Now? "It's over , What?! Everyone left my character and he disapeared? Why didnt i get to rule the city while i was actually in the city!!!? Wtf was that crap! Wheres morrigan and the OGB, what happend to the Architect, what happend to fereldan, where's my warden.!? Uuuuuuhh! They didnt answer any Questions!!!!!.....followed by my mutual hate for Mages, Templar's, The Wounded Coast, and the word "serrah".

And last but not least...

2 years of surfing threads searching for any bit of info that will tell me that DA3 is going to make me remember why I fell in love with DAO.

[nightscrawl]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I play DA:O several times, hundreds of hours, many main characters, many outcomes, proud as a Grey Warden who unite the land, hero of all, defeated the Blight....and suddenly it is all for....NOTHING

It wasn't all for nothing. You defeated the Blight. That was the awesome ending for that game. DA2 was a new game, with a new ending. DA3 will be an additional new game with another new ending.

If all the darkspawn were defeated at the end of DAO, would you still want another Grey Warden vs darkspawn centric game? Would you really want them, soap opera like, to bring the darkspawn back from the dead, even if it involved some lame hand waving? Is that really the only scope you care about?

Modifié par nightscrawl, 03 décembre 2012 - 11:07 .

[StElmo]

They are dull. I prefer political conflict over good vs evil black and white boringness

[nightscrawl]

StElmo wrote...

They are dull. I prefer political conflict over good vs evil black and white boringness

It's nice to change it up once in a while. I've always felt that DA2 was a bridge game, leading up to a future game. With that in mind, I'm looking forward to DA3. However, I think after this next one I'll again be ready for a conflict that is... less gray.

[ScotGaymer]

Can i just ask something?

When was it determined what sex Nizaris was? I don't recall seeing Nizaris describe his/her sex at all...

You guys seem to have just assumed that she (If she is a she?) is a she (unless I am wrong and she did confirm she was a she).

You want to watch that sort of thing, especially with the whole "sexism in gaming" thing thats been going on recently.
I mean the last thing you guys wanna do is imply that just because he/she is being bullheadedly stupid that it means that he/she must be a girl.

Not saying you are or anything. Just that you might wanna watch it.

The darkspawn and wardens are and continue to be relevant to the universe, as they always have been and always will be, of course. But I enjoy that they are going to be exploring other themes and parts of the universe in successive games.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 03 décembre 2012 - 04:40 .

[Herr Uhl]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Can i just ask something?

When was it determined what sex Nizaris was? I don't recall seeing Nizaris describe his/her sex at all...

You guys seem to have just assumed that she (If she is a she?) is a she (unless I am wrong and she did confirm she was a she).

I'm guessing it is bound to they having a female avatar.

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, it's the avatar. When my avatar was my Femshep people tended to assume I was a she.

This assumption is especially made if its one of the protagonists. Less so if it's say... Miranda.

[cJohnOne]

Nizaris said she was a she and also Muslim I believe.