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[upsettingshorts]

Players who believe Dragon Age as a series is "about darkspawn" would, after watching a sequel to The Maltese Falcon, wonder why the protagonist isn't looking for more bird statues.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[Adugan]

David Gaider wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...
So, bye-bye DA...you lost one customer...

There's a lot of presumptions in your posts regarding what can and cannot be. Mostly what you're talking about is a backstory, which DA does have. If you truly believe that the series should be about one thing and one thing only, and we are not focusing on that enough (despite not truly knowing what DA3 will be about)... then fair enough! Hopefully you'll see something in DA3 to interest you when we reveal more of it, but if not then it's great you enjoyed the one game.

I am wondering why DA had a sudden and complete change? It was like a freight train making a 90 degree turn on the spot, with new graphics, new story, new game mechanics, new protagonist creation system. Even the darkspawn looked like someone cut the face off a zombie knight. DA2 is fine on its own, but as part of the series it feels out of place (or DAO will once more games roll out). I read that DA3 will go back a bit to what made DAO good, but to what extent will that be? I would prefer a less comical and anime-style feel to DA3 if thats possible, the seriousness of DAO's story and art is what made it so good.

Modifié par Adugan, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[nightscrawl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Players who believe Dragon Age as a series is "about darkspawn" would, after watching a sequel to The Maltese Falcon wonder why the protagonist isn't looking for more bird statues.

Rofl... The thing is though, the darkspawn are still a danger, and there are supposedly two more old gods waiting around to be turned into Archdemons by the tunneling darkspawn. With the DAA, DA2 Nathaniel, and Legacy content it's not like Bioware hasn't been dropping tidbits for us. The games aren't "about darkspawn," no, but neither is the darkspawn story over.

NasreddinHodja wrote...

It's funny that you should assume most people were drawn to the Dragon Age world because of the Warden/Darkspawn conflict; it certainly wasn't what brought me in.  It's the sidestories:  dwarven politics, the fate of the elves, the traitor who thinks he's doing what is best, and yes, the mages locked up in their tower.  These are the aspects of the world that convinced me to stay with the franchise.  And most of my friends who also played Dragon Age agree that these were the strong points of the game.  The Blight is just a plot device I suffered through just so I could experience all these *other* things.

Now that you mention it, in DAO I agree that all of the side material is more compelling than the main threat. I particularly like the dwarf content. In that game, the Archdemon only serves as a "big bad" to bring all of these disparate groups together. You kill it, whether you live or die, and you win, the end. For me, the darkspawn didn't start to become more interesting until DAA and also from reading The Calling. Those two things added a new dimension to the darkspawn.

It's much easier to have a mindless hoard of monsters to kill. The tough choices come in when you bring in a gray area like the Architect. He offers something tantalizing: no more blights. I take his offer. From Nathaniel's vague comments in DA2, it seems like Bioware has ideas about what it leads to. Only time will tell whether or not we as players get to see it.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:35 .

[Uccio]

Yes. I expect to find my pc (dwarf) in the deep roads (awesome in DAO) battling darkspawn, finding kal sharok and investigating old gods. Darkspawn (not clownspawn) and taint is what makes DA universe.

[ScotGaymer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

the conclusion is Dragon Age is about Grey Warden, Darkspawn, Archdemon and the Blight, period.

Other things such as politic, Chantry, Mage-Templar conflict, Qunari and the rest are just spices in the story, they are not the main ingredient.

DA without Grey Warden, Darkspawn, Archdemon and the Blight is like burger without the meat, lamb chop without the lamb, or KFC without chicken

The main character must be a Grey Warden, no matter if he/she an old character or default character, he/she must be a Grey Warden. The enemy must always be Darkspawn and Archdemon. The main goal is always must be destroying darkspawn utterly and vanishing the taint or join the darkside become the agent of evil.

Along the way main character investigating, discovering, involve in politic, solving issue or make problem, become a bad ass

That is the recipe of success

Just because that is your very very wrong opinion does not make it fact.

When David Gaider tells you YOU ARE WRONG about Dragon Age then you are WRONG ABOUT DRAGON AGE!

Stop trolling.

[Palidane]

Dragon Age is not about the blight per se, but it can be if the writers choose to make it. Personally, I love the Darkspawn and the Grey Wardens, and I'd love to see more of them. Sure, the "evil orc horde" has been done before, but so has everything else. It's done well in Dragon Age, so I want more of it.

[Bernhardtbr]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Players who believe Dragon Age as a series is "about darkspawn" would, after watching a sequel to The Maltese Falcon, wonder why the protagonist isn't looking for more bird statues.

Fair enough, but the question is - did the series mantain the quality?

There are many series that went downhill after killing the most interesting antagonists. Star Wars after Vader and the (first) Emperor, Battletech after the clans were beaten... Many other examples of series that completely lost their appeal or became shallow.

Since the evil orc theme was done before, DA Origins wasn´t exactly that original and thus it´s debatable if the best the world has to show was already shown. Let´s hope the guys at Bioware impress us with their writing, I hope they do.

[nightscrawl]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The main character must be a Grey Warden, no matter if he/she an old character or default character, he/she must be a Grey Warden. The enemy must always be Darkspawn and Archdemon. The main goal is always must be destroying darkspawn utterly and vanishing the taint or join the darkside become the agent of evil.

If you feel that strongly about it, you're bound to be disappointed. =/

[esper]

Nizaris1 wrote...

the conclusion is Dragon Age is about Grey Warden, Darkspawn, Archdemon and the Blight, period.

Other things such as politic, Chantry, Mage-Templar conflict, Qunari and the rest are just spices in the story, they are not the main ingredient.

DA without Grey Warden, Darkspawn, Archdemon and the Blight is like burger without the meat, lamb chop without the lamb, or KFC without chicken

The main character must be a Grey Warden, no matter if he/she an old character or default character, he/she must be a Grey Warden. The enemy must always be Darkspawn and Archdemon. The main goal is always must be destroying darkspawn utterly and vanishing the taint or join the darkside become the agent of evil.

Along the way main character investigating, discovering, involve in politic, solving issue or make problem, become a bad ass

That is the recipe of success

No you are just flat out confusing 'what I want' with 'what is true'.

Darkspawn is part of the world so we will likely never get rid of them, but they are not the main focus. Gaider has said it, you can't claim to be dissapointed by now since you are warned.

I for my part is just happy that it is not the same focus any more. I doubt I would play another game where I was forced into being a warden. (And if we ever go to Anderfeld I hope we get to see the wardens from their unheroic side)

[esper]

FreshIstay wrote...

@Thematic inconsistency

I the sequel wasnt named Dragon Age 2, I wouldnt know it was a sequel.

In fact, if they named it Mages Vs. Templars and I probably would have played the game thinking that the Darkspawn are just bioware's version of PUDDIES ripped straight from the Power Rangers series. No...seriously.

*Who is the champion of kirkwall?*

Yea...who is that twit?..and why is he/she important?. WHY!
Why am I playing this game. What is my motivation. If everything that ive done has already occured, then what the hell man?

Why is I consoling/encouraging/scolding my compainons and helping the considered Main Plot quests? Why are they off doing things that I have to fix...I dont want to fix their mess, Id rather fix kirkwall. Instead of Anders blowing up the Chantry, Why couldnt Hawke? Instead of Isabela stealing a relic, why couldnt Hawke? Instead of Merril fixing a eluvian, Why couldn't hawke?
The whole point of that playthrough was stupid. Im not a therapist.

"The champion of kirkwall was at the heart of the events that changed the world"

Yea..hmmph. and He/She didnt do a damned thing about it except pick a side.


and I fully understand that some people prefer a game where there isnt some ultimate evil, but Origins had that, and most people here were drawn to the series because of it.

Ive heard, " I like something more Political"

Hmm. me too. but what the hell was political about DA2?

I was drawn into da:o in spite of the main story. All the litle side stories was what made the game interesting for me. The darkspawn was just some boring enemy I had to defeat along the way.

[Aolbain]

Nizaris1 wrote...

It is not what i want, but it is what it should be.

You guys who don't want, do you guys care who want it? In the end it is about what you guys want

It is better DA:O is about something else and remove Grey Warden, Darkspawn, Archdemon and the Blight in it if it is not about it at all...make it DA:T...T stand for Thedas...main character is no body, just a Redcliff soldier when Blight happen, following orders, then watch the Warden kill Archdemon in the end....make it an open world where everything goes around just don't care...we join the army because we want to join the army, if we don't want it then it is no problem...just watch the whole thing from afar...

Well, I want a dragon age game where you sit home at your farm and watch the crops grow. The number of people that want that game seams to be the same as those that want the "only grey wardens ever, anything else is a betrayl and a conspiracy " game.

[Zeleen]

my opinion-
DA:O the story was your warden and companions ending the current blight (in whatever direction (choices) you took it in... (minor story plots happening in the same timeline)
DA2 the story of the "Champion of Kirkwall" in what ever direction (choices) you took it in.. (minor story plots happening in the same timeline)

DA3 - it's called the "Inquistion" - I imagine, again, a separate story - with referrence to whatever is going on in other parts of the world... (minor story plots happening in the same timeline)

It's like any other country - the citizens are geographically linked but each state or provence has a separate story going on in the same time line (sp?)

So depending on the main storyline in DA3- I imagine Darkspawn will be a major factor only if it supports the storyline...
If not... probably won't see much of them - if at all ...

Modifié par Zeleen, 04 décembre 2012 - 03:31 .

[Poleaxe_OO]

Nizaris1 wrote...

It is not what i want, but it is what it should be.

You guys who don't want, do you guys care who want it? In the end it is about what you guys want

It is better DA:O is about something else and remove Grey Warden, Darkspawn, Archdemon and the Blight in it if it is not about it at all...make it DA:T...T stand for Thedas...main character is no body, just a Redcliff soldier when Blight happen, following orders, then watch the Warden kill Archdemon in the end....make it an open world where everything goes around just don't care...we join the army because we want to join the army, if we don't want it then it is no problem...just watch the whole thing from afar...

For everyone who agrees with you, there is at least one person who disagrees. Unfortunately for you the guy writing the story is telling you that not every story in Thedas is about the blight. Time to adjust and move on.

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


So you'd rather BioWare lock-in a fate for your protagonist?  I'm sure that would go over well here.

People were generally okay with the ambiguity at the end of DA:O's various expansions, it wasn't until Cassandra/Leliana in DA2 says that the Warden "disappeared" that people started getting upset, because that rules out a lot of endstate scenarios like "my Warden is King of Ferelden"

No. and I dont Imagine that if they brought the warden back that they would lock-in his/her fate. They would probably do the ending similar to the extended-cut, different variations based on choices. All good things must come to an end, wether we like it or not. However, Bioware is not bringin the warden back, so...watev.

and it is not up to you to decide what people were "generally okay with".

It's not that hard.  Cassandra thought Hawke was a "big deal" like the Warden, but he wasn't, it's a deconstruction of all the tired fantasy hero tropes that games like Origins rely on.  In Thedas the Warden is a big deal, but in the fantasy RPG genre, s/he simply one of the many heroes who preserved the status quo from monsters war some threat.  

Among game protagonists, Hawke stands out more by personally mattering less, and the status quo does not survive the events of the game.  This distinction is deliberate, it wasn't an accident.

If your response is: "Well, I like my protagonist mattering more even if it's what happens in every fantasy game ever."  Then that's fine.  But DA2 wasn't doing that.  

WoW. Iove how you are reducing Origin's to a status quo rpg fantasy.

It  was much more than Status Quo, the Warden was not Status Quo, despite the darkspawn/archdemon.

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...

and it is not up to you to decide what people were "generally okay with".

Indeed not, I am simply reporting my impression of the feedback.

FreshIstay wrote...

WoW. Iove how you are reducing Origin's to a status quo rpg fantasy.

It  was much more than Status Quo, the Warden was not Status Quo, despite the darkspawn/archdemon. 

It wasn't?  

By "status quo" I mean the worldstate.  There is a Blight and Civil War threatening Ferelden.  Your goal is to stop them.  You stop them.  Hooray.  Status quo preserved.

One of the criticisms of Origins when it was actually released was that it was fairly derivative.  Are we going to forget about that now because some people found Dragon Age 2 disappointing for other reasons?

[Cutlasskiwi]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The main character must be a Grey Warden, no matter if he/she an old character or default character, he/she must be a Grey Warden. The enemy must always be Darkspawn and Archdemon. The main goal is always must be destroying darkspawn utterly and vanishing the taint or join the darkside become the agent of evil.

Along the way main character investigating, discovering, involve in politic, solving issue or make problem, become a bad ass

That is the recipe of success

Sounds like the games would be very repetitive and boring.

[AlexanderCousland]

NasreddinHodja wrote...


The sequel was named "Dragon Age 2" because it happened in the same universe as the first "Dragon Age." Heck, even the title itself is self-explanatory.  The franchise is "Dragon Age" and it's about what happens in Thedas during the Age of the Dragon.  It is not titled "The Grey Wardens" like that game "Witcher." So this alone should clue us to the fact that the common theme of the franchise is the setting.  

"Who is the Champion of Kirkwall?"  That's is the central question of the second game.  And through you playing it, you get to define him/her.  A nice guy siding with the Templars?  A mean girl siding with the mages?  What are the Champion's motivations?  The death of a mother at the hands of a Blood Mage?  A desire to protect an apostate sister?  The beautiful thing about RPG's is that you get to decide those yourself.

It's funny that you should assume most people were drawn to the Dragon Age world because of the Warden/Darkspawn conflict; it certainly wasn't what brought me in.  It's the sidestories:  dwarven politics, the fate of the elves, the traitor who thinks he's doing what is best, and yes, the mages locked up in their tower.  These are the aspects of the world that convinced me to stay with the franchise.  And most of my friends who also played Dragon Age agree that these were the strong points of the game.  The Blight is just a plot device I suffered through just so I could experience all these *other* things.

Umm. Your Champion was either Red, Blue, or Purple. and Im 100% sure that  you had a 50% chance of choosing the sams side that I did. Mages or Templars, < that is why I commented that If the game wasnt called DA2 i wouldnt know any better.

I never said people were drawn to thedas because of the darkspawn conflict.

What I did say is, people were drawn to the Dragon Age world because of Dragon Age: Origins.

And for the record, the sidestories that you mention are the same thing that had me heavily invested. Choosing the crown for Humas and Dwarves in particular. These are things that annoy me about the second game, there wasnt anything like or similar to those types of choices, not that each game should be the same. I believe that when players were arguing for "choices that matter" at pax east, they were essiantly saying.. "Hey Bioware, the plot kind of dropped off"

The Blight is the greastest threat known to Thedas,  darkspawn are still underground digging away to find that Archdemon. and, Wardens are the only people who can stop it. unless Gaider changes the lore. Im not saying They should be the primary focus of the game, however, they are a core threat to the world of Thedas that these games are about. so if you "suffered" through darkspawn, im inclined to believe, someday, you'll have to suffer again. 

As to what I'd like to see in DA3, Id like to have some poltical power, first off...kind of like the warden in amaranthine, ya know... a land holding and title. whatever the plot is going to be, Id like to be recoginized as an Important piece within it.  I dont have to be the "Monster-Slaying Valiant Half-God" character, but I would definitley like some Clout in watever setting we are in. and Yes....Id like to see some Wardens (or have the option to join) and Darkspawn.  

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...

Umm. Your Champion was either Red, Blue, or Purple.

Wrong!

There was absolutely nothing preventing you from picking any of these options at any point in any conversation for any reason.

My Champion was red sometimes, blue sometimes, purple sometimes, in measurements that will be different from everyone else.

FreshIstay wrote...

and Im 100% sure that  you had a 50% chance of choosing the sams side that I did. Mages or Templars, < that is why I commented that If the game wasnt called DA2 i wouldnt know any better.

I'm 100% sure that the Archdemon died in 100% of completed games.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[Fox In The Box]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wrong!

There was absolutely nothing preventing you from picking any of these options at any point in any conversation for any reason.

My Champion was red sometimes, blue sometimes, purple sometimes, in measurements that will be different from everyone else.

I have to agree with this.

Even though the dominant personality was restricted to either diplomatic, sarcastic or aggressive doesn't mean all of your respective character has to be as simple as that. Personally, I was able to roleplay many different characters than just the three, where the choice in dialouge option reflected who they were as people and why they reacted the way they reacted.

If I'm to use "dominant diplomatic" as an example; My main Hawke was a sensitive, wide-eyed idealist who was very sincere and  polite most of the time, but still often joked around with her friends. Another Hawke was much less sensitive, one who took up the mantle as the head of the family very seriously and whose dialogue options veered mostly between diplomatic and aggressive. Another one was just terrified of confrontation and wanted everyone to play nice as much as possible. Et cetera.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It wasn't?  

By "status quo" I mean the worldstate.  There is a Blight and Civil War threatening Ferelden.  Your goal is to stop them.  You stop them.  Hooray.  Status quo preserved.

One of the criticisms of Origins when it was actually released was that it was fairly derivative.  Are we going to forget about that now because some people found Dragon Age 2 disappointing for other reasons?

No. we shouldnt forget. Youre right, but we also shouldnt forget that Origins is the reason most of us STARTED to care. We also should remeber that Origins was rpg of the year.  

If Three Act's of "What the hell is my main objective"  is the anthesis of status quo, then I'll take the status quo please.

I'd  like to decide the ruler of 4 different holdings and getting them to pledge their troops to the greater good. rather than playing a therapist/guidance counselour to my companion's and having to fight when they mess things up.

Im just saying. Im the type of player who prefer's to be the reason stuff "moves and shakes" my companion's should be riding in my car, I shouldnt be riding in the back seat of theirs. and before you go there. NO IM NOT SAYING THEY SHOULDNT HAVE A MIND OF THEIR OWN. 

 
 
 

[NasreddinHodja]

nightscrawl wrote...

Now that you mention it, in DAO I agree that all of the side material is more compelling than the main threat. I particularly like the dwarf content. In that game, the Archdemon only serves as a "big bad" to bring all of these disparate groups together. You kill it, whether you live or die, and you win, the end. For me, the darkspawn didn't start to become more interesting until DAA and also from reading The Calling. Those two things added a new dimension to the darkspawn.

I would LOVE to play Awakening.  Right now, however, I'm struggling with the Steam Ultimate Edition not acknowledging that I *have* Awakening, stupid mfflr... *mumblemumble*

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Wrong!

There was absolutely nothing preventing you from picking any of these options at any point in any conversation for any reason.

My Champion was red sometimes, blue sometimes, purple sometimes, in measurements that will be different from everyone else.

Oh...so youre saying you were red, blue, or purple....sometimes.    No, wether or not you picked the same color each time, the game still decided  which one you were depending upon which one you picked the most.

I'm 100% sure that the Archdemon died in 100% of completed games.

Very true. but that was inevitable, Who rule's Fereldan is not 50/50..in fact...there's about 7 different ways that could go.

[NasreddinHodja]

FreshIstay wrote...

Umm. Your Champion was either Red, Blue, or Purple. and Im 100% sure that  you had a 50% chance of choosing the sams side that I did. Mages or Templars, < that is why I commented that If the game wasnt called DA2 i wouldnt know any better.

I never said people were drawn to thedas because of the darkspawn conflict.

What I did say is, people were drawn to the Dragon Age world because of Dragon Age: Origins.

And for the record, the sidestories that you mention are the same thing that had me heavily invested. Choosing the crown for Humas and Dwarves in particular. These are things that annoy me about the second game, there wasnt anything like or similar to those types of choices, not that each game should be the same. I believe that when players were arguing for "choices that matter" at pax east, they were essiantly saying.. "Hey Bioware, the plot kind of dropped off"

The Blight is the greastest threat known to Thedas,  darkspawn are still underground digging away to find that Archdemon. and, Wardens are the only people who can stop it. unless Gaider changes the lore. Im not saying They should be the primary focus of the game, however, they are a core threat to the world of Thedas that these games are about. so if you "suffered" through darkspawn, im inclined to believe, someday, you'll have to suffer again. 

As to what I'd like to see in DA3, Id like to have some poltical power, first off...kind of like the warden in amaranthine, ya know... a land holding and title. whatever the plot is going to be, Id like to be recoginized as an Important piece within it.  I dont have to be the "Monster-Slaying Valiant Half-God" character, but I would definitley like some Clout in watever setting we are in. and Yes....Id like to see some Wardens (or have the option to join) and Darkspawn.  

Well, I see the blue/purple/red thing to be devices.  They help you create the character, sure, but that's not all there is to is to Hawke.  Perhaps the options presented are too restrictive (they aren't to me), but then we get into personal taste territory, so I feel I can't make any meaningful statement about that.

It remains to be seen what kinds of choices matter in Dragon Age 3.  For example, just going by DAO and DAA, I would have no idea that the next story would acknowledge who's king/queen of Ferelden or who's ruler of Orzammar.  So maybe DA3 will acknowledge whether Hawke sided with the mages or the templars, whether the Tome got returned to the Qunari or not, etc.  Or maybe there won't be any mention about it.  Point is, we have no idea until the game comes out.

Your point about the title is exactly why I don't feel that Wardens and Darkspawns *need* to be a central point to any game in the franchise.  The second game, despite being about mages and templars, isn't actually called "Mages and Templars," just the like first game isn't called "Grey Wardens." To me that means what ties these games together is the setting, "Dragon Age." And just like you said, there are other interesting things to see in this world, things that can stand as a good story on its own.  Now, I'm not saying I'm completely opposed to having the Darkspawn ever mentioned again (I would love to revisit the issue), but I think it's perfectly fine to take some break from it.  I see Dragon Age as an anthology series, where different things are going on but happening in the same universe.