854 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

NasreddinHodja wrote...

Also, I'm still waiting on your response whether the Mage-Templar war sparked in the second game is a world-changing event or not.

Don't hold your breath, Nizaris hasn't answered a one of my questions.

[AlexanderCousland]

@ Lord Aesir
Unless you chose Anora as the sole monarch, There is absolutley a Grey Warden on the Throne of a whole country. Redgardless, The Warden's hold an Airling within a major nation. That's a big deal. The Warden established that precedent (in a country they were banned from for 3,000 years no less) The Anderfels are the only other place the Wardens hold any political influence.

So this notion that Origins didnt change the world is absurd. Especially considering Orzammar, The Dales, Kinloch Hold, and Amaranthine.


@Nasreddinhodja

One can certainly argue that the events of Dawn of the Seeker (which happend before DA2) could have been the "Spark" or Kinloch Hold, anyhow, You should know that it took some years before other circles revolted, namely, The White Spire, so the events of Asunder are what really started this Mage vs. Templar conflict, you know...with the High Seeker being possessed and Declaring the Templar's seperation from the chantry.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

@ Lord Aesir
Unless you chose Anora as the sole monarch, There is absolutley a Grey Warden on the Throne of a whole country. Redgardless, The Warden's hold an Airling within a major nation. That's a big deal. The Warden established that precedent (in a country they were banned from for 3,000 years no less) The Anderfels are the only other place the Wardens hold any political influence.

So this notion that Origins didnt change the world is absurd. Especially considering Orzammar, The Dales, Kinloch Hold, and Amaranthine.[

] Oh please, and what precisely will this change?  How does having a Grey Warden on the Throne make the monarchy so vastly different than if the monarch were not a Grey Warden?  It's not the start of a precedent, if anything it's destined to be rather short lived given Grey Warden infertility.  As for the Arling, make no mistake, Ferelden is a backwater with little influence outside its own borders.  It isn't a "major nation" (It's more like 300 years btw)

I didn't say the Warden's actions meant nothing, I just said that for the most part they only have a minor effect on things occurring outside of Ferelden itself.  Not of worldwide importance.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 décembre 2012 - 09:49 .

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...
@Nasreddinhodja

One can certainly argue that the events of Dawn of the Seeker (which happend before DA2) could have been the "Spark" or Kinloch Hold, anyhow, You should know that it took some years before other circles revolted, namely, The White Spire, so the events of Asunder are what really started this Mage vs. Templar conflict, you know...with the High Seeker being possessed and Declaring the Templar's seperation from the chantry.

Did you read Asunder?  You know that Asunder states that the unrest and annulments that lead to the events of Asunder were triggered by Kirkwall...  And The Lord  Seeker was never possessed.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote...

 Oh please, and what precisely will this change? How does having a Grey Warden on the Throne make the monarchy so vastly different than if the monarch were not a Grey Warden? It's not the start of a precedent, if anything it's destined to be rather short lived given Grey Warden infertility. As for the Arling, make no mistake, Ferelden is a backwater with little influence outside its own borders. It isn't a "major nation" (It's more like 300 years btw)

I didn't say the Warden's actions meant nothing, I just said that for the most part they only have a minor effect on things occurring outside of Ferelden itself. Not of worldwide importance..

If Fereldan the COUNTRY is "backwater",  What does that make Kirkwall the CITY? Ponder that and hopefully you have a wise answer.

Fereldan deafeated the Orlesian Empire and won it's indpendence. "Backwater" nations are supposed to be able to defeat  prominent Empire's. Also, I suppose that if the Empress of Orlais felt the same way about Fereldan as you do she wouldnt have agreed to marry King Cailin. I suppose "backwater"  Bann's like teagan had no business being at a party with Empress Celen's close personal friend Duke Prosper. "little influence" he says...

Grey Warden's having a Throne is very much a precedent, considering it's the FIRST time it has happend according to all Available Lore.  Grey Warden's with Political Influence is a precedent, and that has a worldwide effect. Kinloch Hold, that had an effect on the Mages and Templars of Kirkwall.

 



 

[Daerog]

Actually, the wardens have complete political control in the Anderfels, they've had political control for generations. It is just unofficial.

Anyway, I'm glad the game is more about the world than any single group.

[NasreddinHodja]

FreshIstay wrote...

One can certainly argue that the events of Dawn of the Seeker (which happend before DA2) could have been the "Spark" or Kinloch Hold, anyhow, You should know that it took some years before other circles revolted, namely, The White Spire, so the events of Asunder are what really started this Mage vs. Templar conflict, you know...with the High Seeker being possessed and Declaring the Templar's seperation from the chantry.

One can certainly, sure, but that doesn't mean what happened in Kirkwall isn't important either.  The narrative certainly treats the events in Kirkwall as revolutionary.  And as far as it takes time for stuff to blow up, remember that DA2 happened in 10 years.

Regardless, my point that the world is not stagnant and that the games are, indeed, about the setting rather than about a specific event in the setting.

[AlexanderCousland]

FreshIstay wrote...
@Nasreddinhodja

One can certainly argue that the events of Dawn of the Seeker (which happend before DA2) could have been the "Spark" or Kinloch Hold, anyhow, You should know that it took some years before other circles revolted, namely, The White Spire, so the events of Asunder are what really started this Mage vs. Templar conflict, you know...with the High Seeker being possessed and Declaring the Templar's seperation from the chantry.

 

Lord Aesir wrote...

Did you read Asunder?  You know that Asunder states that the unrest and annulments that lead to the events of Asunder were triggered by Kirkwall...  And The Lord  Seeker was never possessed.

Oh. I read Asunder front to back 2 times....SO. What triggered Kirkwall?  and You know about the Litany of Adralla that the WARDEN discovered was used in the book.

Lord Seeker Lambert is definitley possessed read the last paragraph dude.

Furthmore, Since your aim is proving that Kirkwall had more an impact on Thedas as a whole, id assume you mean that since the Chantry was destroyed it triggered all that followed, I wont dispute that, but answer this question. WHAT DOES HAWKE HAVE TO DO WITH THE CHANTRY BLOWING UP?

Modifié par FreshIstay, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:51 .

[Heimdall]

If Fereldan the COUNTRY is "backwater",  What does that make Kirkwall the CITY? Ponder that and hopefully you have a wise answer.

Fereldan deafeated the Orlesian Empire and won it's indpendence. "Backwater" nations are supposed to be able to defeat  prominent Empire's. Also, I suppose that if the Empress of Orlais felt the same way about Fereldan as you do she wouldnt have agreed to marry King Cailin. I suppose "backwater"  Bann's like teagan had no business being at a party with Empress Celen's close personal friend Duke Prosper. "little influence" he says..

Grey Warden's having a Throne is very much a precedent, considering it's the FIRST time it has happend according to all Available Lore.  Grey Warden's with Political Influence is a precedent, and that has a worldwide effect. Kinloch Hold, that had an effect on the Mages and Templars of Kirkwall.

Easy, Kirkwall is one of the biggest trading ports on the waking sea and a center of Templar power in eastern Thedas.  What happen's there echoes.  By contrast, there is very little in Ferelden that people outside Ferelden care about.

Celene is interested in reclaiming a former province and restoring power for Orlais.  The fact that a backwater can defend itself does not liberate it from having little power in the politics of Thedas as a whole.  What you have said is of little consequence.

The Grey Wardens have virtually controlled the Anderfels for centuries.  Wardens with political power are not unheard of.  Even then what effect could this have on Thedas if this were as big a deal as you make it out to be?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 décembre 2012 - 11:07 .

[AlexanderCousland]

NasreddinHodja wrote...


One can certainly, sure, but that doesn't mean what happened in Kirkwall isn't important either.  The narrative certainly treats the events in Kirkwall as revolutionary.  And as far as it takes time for stuff to blow up, remember that DA2 happened in 10 years.

Regardless, my point that the world is not stagnant and that the games are, indeed, about the setting rather than about a specific event in the setting.

I 100% agree with your second paragraph.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...
Oh. I read Asunder front to back 2 times....SO. What triggered Kirkwall?  and You know about the Litany of Adralla that the WARDEN discovered was used in the book.

Lord Seeker Lambert is definitley possessed read the last paragraph dude.

Furthmore, Since your aim is proving that Kirkwall had more an impact on Thedas as a whole, id assume you mean that since the Chantry was destroyed it triggered all that followed, I wont dispute that, but answer this question. WHAT DOES HAWKE HAVE TO DO WITH THE CHANTRY BLOWING UP?

Why does that even matter?  The Litany wasn't discovered by the Warden, the Warden just dug it out of storage.  It is likely available in all circles.

The last paragraph is ambiguous.  I took it to mean that Cole killed him.

Potentially Hawke helped Anders plant the explosives, but why does that matter?  I was never trying to say that Hawke had an impact on Thedas specifically, I was only talking about Kirkwall as a whole.

[stormhit]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Abandoned what?

Grey Warden, Darkspawn, Archdemon and The Blight

While it's apparent you're just trolling everything now because you wanted the plotline and characters of DAO to continue on into the future indefinitely-- if you were actually having trouble accepting how everything isn't about darkspawn, just think of it all as concerning the Black City instead.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote.

Easy, Kirkwall is one of the biggest trading ports on the waking sea and a center of Templar power in eastern Thedas. What happen's there echoes. By contrast, there is very little in Ferelden that people outside Ferelden care about.

Celene is interested in reclaiming a former province and restoring power for Orlais. The fact that a backwater can defend itself does not liberate it from having little power in the politics of Thedas as a whole. What you have said is of little consequence. .

Offical description of Fereldan from the DRAGON AGE 2 limited edition STRATEGY GUIDE :

"A pround and Independent people, they resent being considered primitive and are well on their way to becoming a power on the continent"

I'll snap a picture and post it if you need it 


To your highlighted mis-information.

Gwaren is the biggest port on the waking sea.

Who told you that Kirkwall is the center of Templar Power in Eastern Thedas? I dont see that anywhere, please dont use false information to back your stance.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Potentially Hawke helped Anders plant the explosives, but why does that matter?  I was never trying to say that Hawke had an impact on Thedas specifically, I was only talking about Kirkwall as a whole.

okay. we agree

[Urazz]

Lord Aesir wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

@ Lord Aesir
Unless you chose Anora as the sole monarch, There is absolutley a Grey Warden on the Throne of a whole country. Redgardless, The Warden's hold an Airling within a major nation. That's a big deal. The Warden established that precedent (in a country they were banned from for 3,000 years no less) The Anderfels are the only other place the Wardens hold any political influence.

So this notion that Origins didnt change the world is absurd. Especially considering Orzammar, The Dales, Kinloch Hold, and Amaranthine.[

] Oh please, and what precisely will this change?  How does having a Grey Warden on the Throne make the monarchy so vastly different than if the monarch were not a Grey Warden?  It's not the start of a precedent, if anything it's destined to be rather short lived given Grey Warden infertility.  As for the Arling, make no mistake, Ferelden is a backwater with little influence outside its own borders.  It isn't a "major nation" (It's more like 300 years btw)

I didn't say the Warden's actions meant nothing, I just said that for the most part they only have a minor effect on things occurring outside of Ferelden itself.  Not of worldwide importance.

I wouldn't say Fereldan is a backwater country but it isn't a major one either.  Fereldan winning it's independance from Orlais made sure it wasn't a back water country anymore.  If anything, it is on it's way though to becoming a major nation if things keep on their current path.

[Heimdall]

[quote]FreshIstay wrote...Offical description of Fereldan from the DRAGON AGE 2 limited edition STRATEGY GUIDE :

"A pround and Independent people, they resent being considered primitive and are well on their way to becoming a power on the continent"
I'll snap a picture and post it if you need it [/quote]Strategy guides are not reliable sources and even if they were that quote clearly states that they are not yet a power
[quote]To your highlighted mis-information.

Gwaren is the biggest port on the waking sea.

Who told you that Kirkwall is the center of Templar Power in Eastern Thedas? I dont see that anywhere, please dont use false information to back your stance.[/quote]I seem to recal reading that in the in game codex.  I haven't played the game in awhile though.  Even then, its not really a stretch considering the level of power the Templars wield there.

That information about Gwaren is false though.  I have never seen anywhere.  It could be the biggest port in Ferelden but the entire Waking Sea?  I doubt it.







[/quote]

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:16 .

[The Elder King]

FreshIstay wrote...



Gwaren is the biggest port on the waking sea.

Who told you that Kirkwall is the center of Templar Power in Eastern Thedas? I dont see that anywhere, please dont use false information to back your stance.

I don't remember if it was stated in the lore, but in a blog entry from Bioware during DA2 development it was stated that Kirkwall is the centre of templar's power in Eastern Thedas, either because of the power and influence they have in the city or because there is a large numbers of them.
About Gwaren, I remember that people in-game said it was a little more than a fishermen's town (despite being the seat of a teyrn). I think Amaranthine is the most important Fereldan city/port in terms of trading.

Modifié par hhh89, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:33 .

[The Elder King]

Lord Aesir wrote...


That information about Gwaren is false though.  I have never seen anywhere.  It could be the biggest port in Ferelden but the entire Waking Sea?  I doubt it.

It's not even the biggest port in Ferelden. Amaranthine is.

[AlexanderCousland]

So the Hardcover Limited Edition Strategy guide realeased by Bioware with official descriptions on each country, city, and faction is not a reliable resource. ?

Tell Laidlaw and Darrah and Gaider that. They wrote and produced it.

You guys have alot of disdain for fereldan, especially for people who have played two fereldan protaginists. Fereldan will be a power on the continent, regardless of how Orlesian lickspittle's view it.

[The Elder King]

FreshIstay wrote...

So the Hardcover Limited Edition Strategy guide realeased by Bioware with official descriptions on each country, city, and faction is not a reliable resource. ?

Tell Laidlaw and Darrah and Gaider that. They wrote and produced it.

You guys have alot of disdain for fereldan, especially for people who have played two fereldan protaginists. Fereldan will be a power on the continent, regardless of how Orlesian lickspittle's view it.

If you're talking about me, you might have forgotten that Amaranthine's is a Fereldan city too. There is no codex, or sign in the wikia that Gwaren is an important trading post. It's said that it's a major but remote city. From what I gathered from DAA, Amaranthine seems more important. The strategy guide might have an error in saying that Gwaren, instead of Amaranthine, is the biggest port in Waking sea.
About the "power on the continent" thing, we don't even know if Ferelden is stonger than Antiva, and other than Orlais there is another nation who contends the title of the strongest (in Southern Thedas): Nevarra. And let's not forget the Imperium and the Qunari, which are probably stronger than any single Andrastian nation.

And I don't have one once of disdain for Ferelden. Don't assume people hate Ferelden only because they don't agree on your "Fereden the next superpower" theory.

Modifié par hhh89, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:54 .

[AlexanderCousland]

@hhh89

You should learn the difference between Port and Trading Hub

Gwaren is where Hawke sailed to Kirkwall from, The Waking Sea sits on its borders.

Amaranthine (which belongs to the wardens) is south of Highever, and the wealthiest Trading Hub in Fereldan.

[The Elder King]

FreshIstay wrote...

@hhh89

You should learn the difference between Port and Trading Hub

Gwaren is where Hawke sailed to Kirkwall from, The Waking Sea sits on its borders.

Amaranthine (which belongs to the wardens) is south of Highever, and the wealthiest Trading Hub in Fereldan.

Actually, Amaranthing is indeed a trading hub, but a port city to, as it's stated in both the codex and in the wikia. And the map of Amaranthine (http://dragonage.wik...Amaranthine.PNG) clearly shows that Amaranthine is located right in front of the Waking Sea.
Amaranthine is both a prosperous port city and the centre of trade in the north of Ferelden. I didn't find so far any info about Gwaren being the most important port city in Ferelden or the Waking sea, other than your guide. And the guide (even those of Bioware) are known for having errors sometime.

[AlexanderCousland]

@hhh89

Im going to need you to re-read the Lore and Take a peak at a Map.

There's a reason nobody messes with Antiva, the are the wealthiest lot in Thedas and Have the most deadly assasins. If you plotted against them, Youd most likely be dead before you could launch your attack.

Nevarra is NORTH of Orlais and its borders are not in the south at all.

Never have i said Fereldan is greater then Nevarra, Orlais, or the Imperium.

What i have said is Fereldan is not "Backwater" despite what other countries say, and Fereldan is a major country.

The Dev's via strategy guide say that fereldan is on its way to becoming a power on the continent.

Dont twist my words, thats very unbecoming of you.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

So the Hardcover Limited Edition Strategy guide realeased by Bioware with official descriptions on each country, city, and faction is not a reliable resource. ?

Tell Laidlaw and Darrah and Gaider that. They wrote and produced it.

You guys have alot of disdain for fereldan, especially for people who have played two fereldan protaginists. Fereldan will be a power on the continent, regardless of how Orlesian lickspittle's view it.

Like I said, the point stands.  As yet Ferelden is still but a minor nation in Thedas and its internal politics have little effect on the wider world beyond whether the Orlesians feel inclined to invade again.

I don't disdain Ferelden, I just have a realistic perception of its place in Thedas.  It is insignificant by comparison to the likes of Orlais and Tervinter.  Even the Free Marches are better located for trade.  Ferelden may become a power, but is not at the moment.  Give it another decade and I might be able to see it.

[The Elder King]

FreshIstay wrote...

@hhh89

Im going to need you to re-read the Lore and Take a peak at a Map.

There's a reason nobody messes with Antiva, the are the wealthiest lot in Thedas and Have the most deadly assasins. If you plotted against them, Youd most likely be dead before you could launch your attack.

Nevarra is NORTH of Orlais and its borders are not in the south at all.

Never have i said Fereldan is greater then Nevarra, Orlais, or the Imperium.

What i have said is Fereldan is not "Backwater" despite what other countries say, and Fereldan is a major country.

The Dev's via strategy guide say that fereldan is on its way to becoming a power on the continent.

Dont twist my words, thats very unbecoming of you.

I didn't mean that you said that Ferelden is greater than other coutnries. But you did say that Ferelden is a major country, which is not, in my opinion. If Ferelden fought against Orlais, Nevarra (by the way I never talked about borders. And Nevarra is located at south of the Imperium and the  Qunari) or Antiva, they're going to lose at the moment. So, I don't think that Ferelden is a major country, though I'd admit that it depends of mine definition of "major country" (which is itself a subjective definition). Unless Ferelden will become powerful enough to stand against one of those nations, I'm not going to say that Ferelden is a major country.
Being a "major country" means that a country can stands against another "major" country. Nevarra was considered a little more than a city, before it defeated Orlais. Ferelden can't do this, and expecially not at this moment, considering the heavy losses they suffered due the Blight.
You can quote your guide all the time your want, guides often are wrong. And even it's on the way of becoming a power on the continent, that means that they're not at the moment, so they're not a major country.
When it'll be show that Ferelden is a powerful and rich country, strong enough to fight one of the major countries, or some codexes and/or dialogues in-game, I'll say that Ferelden is a major country. Not before.