854 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

One, possibly two of which are Fereldan.

Which in this context is completely meaningless and irrelevant.

Not really, Alistair (among others) are Fereldan, what makes you think they didnt have the bright Idea of saving their own homeland while collecting an army?

I suppose your under the impression everyone in the party just wanted to restore the Warden's to greatness, it was all about the Warden's for them?...which goes back to my earlier point of Grey Warden influence in politics.

Yes really, because you're ignoring pages of conversation and inventing your own context.

The Hero of Ferelden's motivations are ours to decide in our own playthroughs, Alistair's motivations are his and his alone and not representative of the order at large considering they are deeply personal, and you're conveniently leaving out Arl frigging Eamon and Teryn friggin Loghain from the equation who are the actual leaders of the factions in Ferelden's Civil War.  The whole reason the party goes to Eamon is because he - not the Wardens - has the power and authority to challenge Loghain's regency politically.  

If your Warden wanted to make Ferelden all powerful and leveraged the treaties in an attempt to do that by establishing personal connections with other leaders that's their business.  It's hardly canon or permanent, with a built in expiration date (the death of your protagonist).

Edit:  Not to mention both possible kings of Orzammar would have very good in-character reasons not to help you in the future anyway.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

But they didn't collect forces for Ferelden. They collected forces for the Wardens.

There is an important difference.

So, their goal wasnt to unite Fereldan under a Monarch? Im sure I didnt miss the part when the Warden had to play politician with the nobles to get them to side with him at the Landsmeet, the game was just as much about saving Fereldan as it was about defeating the Darkspawn. Maybe your warden was sleeping during the civil war.

They recruited the Fereldans too.

No, what they did was unite Fereldan against a common Foe. They didnt actually recruit any Fereldan's until Awakening.
 .

[LinksOcarina]

FreshIstay wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

One, possibly two of which are Fereldan.

Which in this context is completely meaningless and irrelevant.

Not really, Alistair (among others) are Fereldan, what makes you think they didnt have the bright Idea of saving their own homeland while collecting an army?

I suppose your under the impression everyone in the party just wanted to restore the Warden's to greatness, it was all about the Warden's for them?...which goes back to my earlier point of Grey Warden influence in politics.

The only two that would be in that vein, other than the Warden themselves depending on role-playing choices, would be Alistar and Wynne. 

Even then, its not enough to really in it for themselves or for their own reasons beyond stopping the blight. 

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...

No, what they did was unite Fereldan against a common Foe. They didnt actually recruit any Fereldan's until Awakening..

No.

They solved Ferelden's succession crisis that Loghain created and then exploited at Ostagar. 

DA: O is two distinct mainplots converging at a point in history.

[Herr Uhl]

FreshIstay wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

But they didn't collect forces for Ferelden. They collected forces for the Wardens.

There is an important difference.

So, their goal wasnt to unite Fereldan under a Monarch? Im sure I didnt miss the part when the Warden had to play politician with the nobles to get them to side with him at the Landsmeet, the game was just as much about saving Fereldan as it was about defeating the Darkspawn. Maybe your warden was sleeping during the civil war.

They recruited the Fereldans too.

No, what they did was unite Fereldan against a common Foe. They didnt actually recruit any Fereldan's until Awakening.

Not reqruit as in having them join the order. Recruit as in using their military to fight the Blight. You solve a dispute of the crown for Ferelden, just in the same as you do it for Orzammar.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Yes really, because you're ignoring pages of conversation and inventing your own context.

The Hero of Ferelden's motivations are ours to decide in our own playthroughs, Alistair's motivations are his and his alone and not representative of the order at large, and you're conveniently leaving out Arl frigging Eamon and Teryn friggin Loghain from the equation who are the actual leaders of the factions in Ferelden's Civil War.  

If your Warden wanted to make Ferelden all powerful and leveraged the treaties in an attempt to do that by establishing personal connections with other leaders that's their business.  It's hardly canon or permanent, with a built in expiration date (the death of your protagonist).

Oh no, my context is spot on.

Ive been part of this conversation for about 20 pages. and yes,  I read all of the posts since you and other's decided to join/re-join the conversation back at page 30.

So glad you mentioned Lohgain, Eamon, That's what I was saying, Origin's was about getting the country of Ferelden to unite under one banner to face a common enemy.

My own character's motivation's are irellevant to my point. everybody's Warden united Fereldan, not just my own. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:31 .

[Herr Uhl]

FreshIstay wrote...

So glad you mentioned Lohgain, Eamon, That's what I was saying, Origin's was about getting the country of Ferelden to unite under one banner to face a common enemy.

My own character's motivation's are irellevant to my point. everybody's Warden united Fereldan, not just my own. 

Every warden also united Orzammar. Was the game about attaining an army for them?

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...

Oh no, my context is spot on.

We'll see.

FreshIstay wrote...

So glad you mentioned Lohgain, Eamon, That's what I was saying, Origin's was about getting the country of Ferelden to unite under one banner to face a common enemy.

Are you alleging that the alliance that defeated the Blight is a permanent and lasting one, and remains under the banner of the King/Queen of Ferelden, then?

Because unless that's what you're saying, you're starting a different argument.  

DA:O had two stories:

Using the Grey Warden treaties to call upon elves, dwarves, and mages to aid the Grey Wardens.

Solving the Ferelden succession crisis by saving Arl Eamon and placing a monarch on the throne whose legitimacy was unquestioned, thus reintegrating their forces.

These were distinct and seperate goals with a common enemy.  Not common goals with common sources of authority.

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

No, what they did was unite Fereldan against a common Foe. They didnt actually recruit any Fereldan's until Awakening..

No.

They solved Ferelden's succession crisis that Loghain created and then exploited at Ostagar. 

DA: O is two distinct mainplots converging at a point in history.

Oh you mean, The Grey Warden's poltically influenced a Nation to choose a Monarch. and That Monarch focused their Armies on the Blight?

Cailin's death was his own doing.

[AlexanderCousland]

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

So glad you mentioned Lohgain, Eamon, That's what I was saying, Origin's was about getting the country of Ferelden to unite under one banner to face a common enemy.

My own character's motivation's are irellevant to my point. everybody's Warden united Fereldan, not just my own. 

Every warden also united Orzammar. Was the game about attaining an army for them?

No and Yes  it was about attaining an army for the "surfacer's",  the Warden needed to unite Orzammar to accomplish that goal. One piece of the pie.  

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...

Oh you mean, The Grey Warden's poltically influenced a Nation to choose a Monarch. and That Monarch focused their Armies on the Blight?

The Hero of Ferelden and Alistair sure did.  

"The Grey Wardens" didn't have the first idea what was even happening, and given what the lore says about them, would probably have allowed Ferelden to be written off as a victim of its own internal problems before it got involved.  The Wardens definitely would not have cared about what happened to Ferelden in general as long as the Blight was stopped.

Anyway, answer the question.  Are you saying that these alliances are permanent and exist under the banner of Ferelden or not?

If you are, then you're wrong.  If you're not, then I'm not interested in starting a brand new argument with a brand new person in this thread.

FreshIstay wrote...

Cailin's death was his own doing.

To use an analogy.  Cailan undertook an extremely risky and dangerous descent with Loghain holding the rope.  Then Loghain let go of the rope.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:41 .

[Herr Uhl]

FreshIstay wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

So glad you mentioned Lohgain, Eamon, That's what I was saying, Origin's was about getting the country of Ferelden to unite under one banner to face a common enemy.

My own character's motivation's are irellevant to my point. everybody's Warden united Fereldan, not just my own. 

Every warden also united Orzammar. Was the game about attaining an army for them?

No and Yes  it was about attaining an army for the "surfacer's",  the Warden needed to unite Orzammar to accomplish that goal. One piece of the pie.  

No, it is an army to fight the blight. Not for the "surfacers". The civil war needed to be stopped in order to attain the support of the army of Ferelden for the same goal. One piece of the pie.

[DarkSpiral]

FreshIstay wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

No, what they did was unite Fereldan against a common Foe. They didnt actually recruit any Fereldan's until Awakening..

No.

They solved Ferelden's succession crisis that Loghain created and then exploited at Ostagar. 

DA: O is two distinct mainplots converging at a point in history.

Oh you mean, The Grey Warden's poltically influenced a Nation to choose a Monarch. and That Monarch focused their Armies on the Blight?

Cailin's death was his own doing.

While I was never able to consider Cailan to be particularly bright (Wynne's defense of his attitude that he HAD to be that way for the sake of morale stuck me as completely hollow), his death was almost certainly Loghain's doing.  Cailan might have died anyway, if the battle has proceeded s planned, but Loghain betrayal garunteed it.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:55 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you alleging that the alliance that defeated the Blight is a permanent and lasting one, and remains under the banner of the King/Queen of Ferelden, then?

Because unless that's what you're saying, you're starting a different argument.  

DA:O had two stories:

Using the Grey Warden treaties to call upon elves, dwarves, and mages to aid the Grey Wardens.

Solving the Ferelden succession crisis by saving Arl Eamon and placing a monarch on the throne whose legitimacy was unquestioned, thus reintegrating their forces.

These were distinct and seperate goals with a common enemy.  Not common goals with common sources of authority.

Even if I was alleging that, can you prove otherwise?

I never said there was a common source of Authority.

and youre acussing me of taking statements out of context.   You just invented a statement for me and posed it in the form of a question.

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...

Even if I was alleging that, can you prove otherwise?

Yes.

The Grey Warden treaties had nothing to do with Ferelden.  Fact.

FreshIstay wrote...

I never said there was a common source of Authority.

NO BUT NIZERIS WAS.  THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT.

You inserted your own interpretation into an ongoing argument and then when I asked you to defend the point of the person I was arguing with, you distanced yourself from it claiming it was an invention.  

And we're done here.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

So glad you mentioned Lohgain, Eamon, That's what I was saying, Origin's was about getting the country of Ferelden to unite under one banner to face a common enemy.

My own character's motivation's are irellevant to my point. everybody's Warden united Fereldan, not just my own. 

Every warden also united Orzammar. Was the game about attaining an army for them?

No and Yes  it was about attaining an army for the "surfacer's",  the Warden needed to unite Orzammar to accomplish that goal. One piece of the pie.  

No, it is an army to fight the blight. Not for the "surfacers". The civil war needed to be stopped in order to attain the support of the army of Ferelden for the same goal. One piece of the pie.

 However you want to put it. You still united Fereldan and saved the country. or did you forget your Warden's title?

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...
 However you want to put it.

It's not semantics.

It's a distinctly different goal with distinctly different obligations.

These nuances are crucially important, unless of course your headcanon finds them inconvenient.

Then however you want to put it, I guess.

[Herr Uhl]

FreshIstay wrote...

 However you want to put it. You still united Fereldan and saved the country. or did you forget your Warden's title?

So, how does that mean that Ferelden is able to gain allies against any enemy?

FreshIstay wrote...

Nizaris' historical fallacies aside, i think her/his aim was to prove the relevance and capability of Fereldan's military and its ability to gain allies against any foe that may decide to declare war.

If it was Orlesians, the Dwarves and Dalish would most likely have told you to sod off. Hell, if it wasn't for the treaty, the Dalish would probably have killed you on sight.

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Even if I was alleging that, can you prove otherwise?

Yes.

The Grey Warden treaties had nothing to do with Ferelden.  Fact.

FreshIstay wrote...

I never said there was a common source of Authority.

NO BUT NIZERIS WAS.  THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT.

You inserted your own interpretation into an ongoing argument and then when I asked you to defend the point of the person I was arguing with, you distanced yourself from it claiming it was an invention.  

And we're done here.

Understand this, I am not Nizaris. Nor am I defending her points. Nor, did you ask me to defend her points.  

I have been part of this conversation for atleast 20-25 pages so I did not "insert" myself anywhere, furthermore this is a Forum this is where conversation is intended to happen.

 

  

[upsettingshorts]

FreshIstay wrote...

Nizaris' historical fallacies aside, i think her/his aim was to prove the relevance and capability of Fereldan's military and its ability to gain allies against any foe that may decide to declare war.

Off topic, sure, but relevant pertaining to her/his point, regardless if the info is true or false.

FreshIstay wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Except it wasn't Ferelden collecting allies, it was the Wardens.

One, possibly two of which are Fereldan.

Like I said.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:11 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Like I said.

Like you said What?

If you notice that post was individual, I wasnt responding to anyone. I did not quote any of you. You guy's responded to me.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's not semantics.
It's a distinctly different goal with distinctly different obligations.
These nuances are crucially important, unless of course your headcanon finds them inconvenient.
Then however you want to put it, I guess.

 The Goal is to Unite Fereldan against the Blight. Hence the Title "Hero of Fereldan".
everything you did in Origin's was to Unify the People. The main objective never varies, it never waiver's.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:43 .

[AlexanderCousland]

FreshIstay wrote...

Cailin's death was his own doing.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To use an analogy.  Cailan undertook an extremely risky and dangerous descent with Loghain holding the rope.  Then Loghain let go of the rope.

Okay. So the reason you guys are claiming that Fereldan cant be the next power on the continent is because Fereldan's army was descimated, and a large population loss.

So If Lohgain wouldnt have pulled out of Ostagar,  there would certainly be an even greater loss at Ostagar.
 
Lohgain wasnt holding any rope, because you dont know if his participation would have saved Cailin, and you certainly cant say he encouraged Cailin to join the front lines, He told him not to. He did not intend Cailin's death. 

Our Warden & Alistair certainly had their own share of the blame as well.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[DarkSpiral]

FreshIstay wrote...

So If Lohgain wouldnt have pulled out of Ostagar,  there would certainly be an even greater loss at Ostagar.

Greater than the entire group of Ferelden soldiers already engaged with the Darkspawn?  Possible, but I doubt it.  Killing the darkspawn in that battle would have saved as many lives as it could have put in danger.  And that doesn't change Loghain's culpability in Cailan's death.
 

Lohgain wasnt holding any rope, because you dont know if his participation would have saved Cailin, and you certainly cant say he encouraged Cailin to join the front lines, He told him not to. He did not intend Cailin's death.

 

Up until the last moment of the strategy meeting, you;d be right.  But the descision to pull out instead of signaling the charge for the flamking maneuvor was not an impulse.  It was a deliberate choice, and one that garunteed the death of everyone already fighting.  While its possible Cailan's quest for personal glory would have gotten him killed anyway, the lack of a flanking charge made it a certainty.

Our Warden & Alistair certainly had their own share of the blame as well.

I'm not following you here.  How so?

[Plaintiff]

DarkSpiral wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

So If Lohgain wouldnt have pulled out of Ostagar,  there would certainly be an even greater loss at Ostagar.

Greater than the entire group of Ferelden soldiers already engaged with the Darkspawn?  Possible, but I doubt it.  Killing the darkspawn in that battle would have saved as many lives as it could have put in danger.  And that doesn't change Loghain's culpability in Cailan's death.
 

Lohgain wasnt holding any rope, because you dont know if his participation would have saved Cailin, and you certainly cant say he encouraged Cailin to join the front lines, He told him not to. He did not intend Cailin's death.

 

Up until the last moment of the strategy meeting, you;d be right.  But the descision to pull out instead of signaling the charge for the flamking maneuvor was not an impulse.  It was a deliberate choice, and one that garunteed the death of everyone already fighting.  While its possible Cailan's quest for personal glory would have gotten him killed anyway, the lack of a flanking charge made it a certainty.

Our Warden & Alistair certainly had their own share of the blame as well.

I'm not following you here.  How so?

It's been confirmed by the writers that Loghain did not premeditate his "betrayal" of Cailan, that Ostagar was a hopeless situation and Loghain's withdrawal was tactically sound.

Personally, I still don't support him even slightly, even with this information.

The Warden and Alistair are "to blame" because the signal fire was lit too late. I think it's a bit of a stretch to lay the fault on them, obviously. The tower was crawling with darkspawn, after all.

The game does an extremely poor job of conveying Loghain's apparent "innocence". If the signal fire was really lit so late, then he should've already left. But instead he waited and waited until he saw it, and then he gave the order to march out.

So... chalk this one up to not being properly thought out?