854 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's not semantics.
It's a distinctly different goal with distinctly different obligations.
These nuances are crucially important, unless of course your headcanon finds them inconvenient.
Then however you want to put it, I guess.

 The Goal is to Unite Fereldan against the Blight. Hence the Title "Hero of Fereldan".
everything you did in Origin's was to Unify the People. The main objective never varies, it never waiver's.

There's a fallacy here.  There are two objectives you are conflating, one is subordinate to the other.  Uniting Ferelden is one of them and is achieved by resolving the succession crisis and the civil war.  This goal is a means to an end for the true goal, stopping the Blight before it can cause more destruction in Ferelden and beyond.  This entails gathering armies, including the dwarves, Dalish, mages and the ones Ferelden has tangled up in a civil war.  The ultimate goal is defeating the Blight.  Uniting Ferelden is just a necessary step to achieving that.

[DarkSpiral]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's been confirmed by the writers that Loghain did not premeditate his "betrayal" of Cailan, that Ostagar was a hopeless situation and Loghain's withdrawal was tactically sound.

Personally, I still don't support him even slightly, even with this information.

The Warden and Alistair are "to blame" because the signal fire was lit too late. I think it's a bit of a stretch to lay the fault on them, obviously. The tower was crawling with darkspawn, after all.

The game does an extremely poor job of conveying Loghain's apparent "innocence". If the signal fire was really lit so late, then he should've already left. But instead he waited and waited until he saw it, and then he gave the order to march out.

So... chalk this one up to not being properly thought out?

Hmf.  I'd have to.  The events just don't play that way, for me.  The foreshadowing of Loghain's betrayal was heavy enough, during that last scene at the strategy meeting, you could cut it with a knife.

But okay.  If that's why they intended, that's what they intended.  Its an example of a bad comminication of intent.

[Plaintiff]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's been confirmed by the writers that Loghain did not premeditate his "betrayal" of Cailan, that Ostagar was a hopeless situation and Loghain's withdrawal was tactically sound.

Personally, I still don't support him even slightly, even with this information.

The Warden and Alistair are "to blame" because the signal fire was lit too late. I think it's a bit of a stretch to lay the fault on them, obviously. The tower was crawling with darkspawn, after all.

The game does an extremely poor job of conveying Loghain's apparent "innocence". If the signal fire was really lit so late, then he should've already left. But instead he waited and waited until he saw it, and then he gave the order to march out.

So... chalk this one up to not being properly thought out?

Hmf.  I'd have to.  The events just don't play that way, for me.  The foreshadowing of Loghain's betrayal was heavy enough, during that last scene at the strategy meeting, you could cut it with a knife.

But okay.  If that's why they intended, that's what they intended.  Its an example of a bad comminication of intent.

I think that initially, it was intended to be ambiguous. I don't think we were supposed to ever know the answers. But then they got given to us, so... yeah.

But it doesn't matter for me. Post-Ostagar, Loghain's actions continue to be either so abhorrent or so moronic that I feel his execution is justified ten times over.

[Rorschachinstein]

Plaintiff wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's been confirmed by the writers that Loghain did not premeditate his "betrayal" of Cailan, that Ostagar was a hopeless situation and Loghain's withdrawal was tactically sound.

Personally, I still don't support him even slightly, even with this information.

The Warden and Alistair are "to blame" because the signal fire was lit too late. I think it's a bit of a stretch to lay the fault on them, obviously. The tower was crawling with darkspawn, after all.

The game does an extremely poor job of conveying Loghain's apparent "innocence". If the signal fire was really lit so late, then he should've already left. But instead he waited and waited until he saw it, and then he gave the order to march out.

So... chalk this one up to not being properly thought out?

Hmf.  I'd have to.  The events just don't play that way, for me.  The foreshadowing of Loghain's betrayal was heavy enough, during that last scene at the strategy meeting, you could cut it with a knife.

But okay.  If that's why they intended, that's what they intended.  Its an example of a bad comminication of intent.

I think that initially, it was intended to be ambiguous. I don't think we were supposed to ever know the answers. But then they got given to us, so... yeah.

But it doesn't matter for me. Post-Ostagar, Loghain's actions continue to be either so abhorrent or so moronic that I feel his execution is justified ten times over.

That's what I felt as well.  They did a bad job in pushing most of the blame on Arl  Howe.   

[AlexanderCousland]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Greater than the entire group of Ferelden soldiers already engaged with the Darkspawn?  Possible, but I doubt it.  Killing the darkspawn in that battle would have saved as many lives as it could have put in danger.  And that doesn't change Loghain's culpability in Cailan's death.

Well, if you throw more bodies into a losing battle that equals greater casualties to the army, right?

DarkSpiral wrote...
Up until the last moment of the strategy meeting, you;d be right.  But the descision to pull out instead of signaling the charge for the flamking maneuvor was not an impulse.  It was a deliberate choice, and one that garunteed the death of everyone already fighting.  While its possible Cailan's quest for personal glory would have gotten him killed anyway, the lack of a flanking charge made it a certainty..

The choice was to keep casualties at a minimum, as any good General would do. If Cailin died on the front line so be it. He was the King, but the King is one man. If I was your King, would you sacrifice the lives of common soilder's for a rescue mission to save me? I wouldnt want you to, If  my choice was to Fight on the front lines I probably would have made that choice understanding that I very well may die, my soilders have families to keep as many of them alive as possible. Fereldan still must fight another day. 

DarkSpiral wrote...

I'm not following you here.  How so?

We didnt light the beacon in a timely manner. Im willing to bet Lohgain would have charged had we done so.
The Darkspawn taking the tower of Ishal was an unforseen circumstance, but It delayed us. That is why Lohgain blamed the death of Cailin on the order. Unfair as it might be.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Greater than the entire group of Ferelden soldiers already engaged with the Darkspawn?  Possible, but I doubt it.  Killing the darkspawn in that battle would have saved as many lives as it could have put in danger.  And that doesn't change Loghain's culpability in Cailan's death.

Well, if you throw more bodies into a losing battle that equals greater casualties to the army, right?

That depends.  It's possible that Loghain's forces may have turned the tide enough to save Cailan and some of his forces, allowing for a tactical retreat.  Thus saving many more lives by preventing the Civil War.  The truth is we just don't know what would have happened had Loghain flanked the Darkspawn as planned.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 10 décembre 2012 - 03:49 .

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...



We didnt light the beacon in a timely manner. Im willing to bet Lohgain would have charged had we done so.
The Darkspawn taking the tower of Ishal was an unforseen circumstance, but It delayed us. That is why Lohgain blamed the death of Cailin on the order. Unfair as it might be.

I'm fairly certain he did that to discredit the Wardens should any survive to accuse him of regicide.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote...

That depends.  It's possible that Loghain's forces may have turned the tide enough to save Cailan and some of his forces, allowing for a tactical retreat.  Thus saving many more lives by preventing the Civil War.  The truth is we just don't know what would have happened had Loghain flanked the Darkspawn as planned.

Plaintiff wrote...


It's been confirmed by the writers that Loghain did not premeditate his "betrayal" of Cailan, that Ostagar was a hopeless situation and Loghain's withdrawal was tactically sound.

I had to quote him just so you know that Im not the only one who know's that it's been confirmed by the Dev's.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

The choice was to keep casualties at a minimum, as any good General would do. If Cailin died on the front line so be it. He was the King, but the King is one man. If I was your King, would you sacrifice the lives of common soilder's for a rescue mission to save me? I wouldnt want you to, If  my choice was to Fight on the front lines I probably would have made that choice understanding that I very well may die, my soilders have families to keep as many of them alive as possible. Fereldan still must fight another day. 

See, if you were my king, I'd probably respect your personal decision as my liege, but as an advisor I'd think you were being stupid by going to the front lines without an heir to the throne.  Forseeing a chaotic succession crisis, I might decide that risking the lives of my men is well worth the chaos and death that may be averted.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That depends.  It's possible that Loghain's forces may have turned the tide enough to save Cailan and some of his forces, allowing for a tactical retreat.  Thus saving many more lives by preventing the Civil War.  The truth is we just don't know what would have happened had Loghain flanked the Darkspawn as planned.

Plaintiff wrote...


It's been confirmed by the writers that Loghain did not premeditate his "betrayal" of Cailan, that Ostagar was a hopeless situation and Loghain's withdrawal was tactically sound.

I had to quote him just so you know that Im not the only one who know's that it's been confirmed by the Dev's.

:huh:Okay, I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I said.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Okay, I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I said.

Allow me to explain :

You said Lohgain could have turned the tide.

The Dev's confirmed that the Battle of Ostagar would have been lost regardless if Lohgain joined the fray or not.
 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 décembre 2012 - 04:10 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm fairly certain he did that to discredit the Wardens should any survive to accuse him of regicide.

Im sure he thought all the Warden's perished along with the King. That's why Howe had to tell him the our Warden lived. If everyone is aware that our Warden's did not light the beacon on time, then why are you suprised when Lohgain say's we are responsible, everyone had a slice of that pie. Darkspawn, Our Warden, and Lohgain as well.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 décembre 2012 - 04:11 .

[Silfren]

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm fairly certain he did that to discredit the Wardens should any survive to accuse him of regicide.

Im sure he thought all the Warden's perished along with the King. That's why Howe had to tell him the our Warden lived. If everyone is aware that our Warden's did not light the beacon on time, then why are you suprised when Lohgain say's we are responsible, everyone had a slice of that pie. Darkspawn, Our Warden, and Lohgain as well.

You're forgetting that in Lothering, guards were stationed to look specifically for Duncan's newest Warden recruit, which happens quite a while before Howe informs Loghain of the survival of any Wardens, and that while there, you're also informed of a price being placed on the head of any Wardens.  (Howe didn't tell him that it was THE Warden who lived, but that some Wardens survived Ostagar). So clearly Loghain was NOT 100% certain that all the Wardens were killed at Ostagar.  In fact it appears that he suspected that if any Wardens did survive, it would most likely be the ones who were at the tower and therefore away from the main battle.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 décembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote...

See, if you were my king, I'd probably respect your personal decision as my liege, but as an advisor I'd think you were being stupid by going to the front lines without an heir to the throne.  Forseeing a chaotic succession crisis, I might decide that risking the lives of my men is well worth the chaos and death that may be averted.

 You would also weaken the country's ability to defend itself by saving me. See, the blight wouldnt have ended at Ostagar, so by risking our forces to save me we would have less men to fight the next battle.  

[AlexanderCousland]

Silfren wrote...

You're forgetting that in Lothering, guards were stationed to look specifically for Duncan's newest Warden recruit, which happens quite a while before Howe informs Loghain of the survival of any Wardens, and that while there, you're also informed of a price being placed on the head of any Wardens.  So clearly Loghain was NOT 100% certain that all the Wardens were killed at Ostagar.  In fact it appears that he suspected that if any Wardens did survive, it would most likely be the ones who were at the tower and therefore away from the main battle.

Who suspected it, Lohgain or Howe?  ponder that.

Regardless, I dont think the Hero of Riverdane, who at that time was revered by Ferelden's, feared being acussed of regcide by anyone. I think he was doing what he thought was right. Our Warden's lit the beacon late, so maybe from his POV  we were just as much to blame as we proclaimed him to be.  

[TEWR]

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Okay, I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I said.

Allow me to explain :

You said Lohgain could have turned the tide.

The Dev's confirmed that the Battle of Ostagar would have been lost regardless if Lohgain joined the fray or not.
 

I think what Lord Aesir was trying to say is that Loghain should've joined the battle long enough to save Cailan and then got the hell out of dodge, so as to better serve his chances of gaining a united Bannorn under his command. Not that Loghain should've fought the entire battle.

But I say that wouldn't have worked had Loghain charged anyway because Cailan dies less then two minutes after Loghain issued his tactical retreat. Had Loghain charged, they probably would've entered the battle just to see Cailan get crushed.

Cailan couldn't have been saved. Though Loghain could've sent a squadron of men to attempt it anyway while the main bulk of his army retreated so he could at least tell the Bannorn he did attempt to do so.

Of course, that'd be the politically sound move. Loghain has never once been a clever politician.

Anyway, Cailan was doomed from the start, and that death was his own doing.

FreshIStay wrote...

Our Warden's lit the beacon late, so maybe from his POV  we were just as much to blame as we proclaimed him to be.  

Essentially, yes.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 décembre 2012 - 04:56 .

[RogueWriter3201]

Plaintiff wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

*snip*

*snip*

It's been confirmed by the writers that Loghain did not premeditate his "betrayal" of Cailan, that Ostagar was a hopeless situation and Loghain's withdrawal was tactically sound.

Personally, I still don't support him even slightly, even with this information.

The Warden and Alistair are "to blame" because the signal fire was lit too late. I think it's a bit of a stretch to lay the fault on them, obviously. The tower was crawling with darkspawn, after all.

The game does an extremely poor job of conveying Loghain's apparent "innocence". If the signal fire was really lit so late, then he should've already left. But instead he waited and waited until he saw it, and then he gave the order to march out.

So... chalk this one up to not being properly thought out?

Pardon, but, I don't ever recall seeing any Thread Posts, Tweets, or 'Con Panels where David, Sheryl, or any of the other writers confirmed that Loghain's betrayal at Ostagar was not something he plotted in advance. Honestly, that sounds rediculous, especially when one takes into account the prequel books in which Loghain is *told* he'll one day betray Maric in some way. On top of that we have the revelation (Return to Ostagar) that Cailan was likely going to divorce Anora because of her fertility problems and that, quite likely, Cailain was going to extend a Marriage proposal to Empress Celene in the hopes of Uniting Fereldan and Orlais.

Two Birds, One Stone.

Given Loghain's history, once he learned about all this, he would have seen this as a betrayal against him on two fronts; Cailain betraying the memory of his Father and the War for Independance fought to restore Fereldan's Throne *and* Betraying Loghain himself because of the divorce from his daughter, the rape of his Sister by Orlisians and so on. So, again, I doubt Loghain leaving Cailain to die was Tactics. Unless you can link to the Thread or Interview I don't believe that for a second. The planned betrayal was so heavily implied and substantiated that if that wasn't the case it would be some truly terrible writing.
 

[BlueMagitek]

Cailan had the misfortune of thinking himself the PC. :/

[TEWR]

[quote]glenboy24 wrote...

Pardon, but, I don't ever recall seeing any Thread Posts, Tweets, or 'Con Panels where David, Sheryl, or any of the other writers confirmed that Loghain's betrayal at Ostagar was not something he plotted in advance.[/quote]

Then you haven't been looking in the right places.

It's been said by David Gaider years ago that Loghain had planned a tactical retreat in the event that the battle would be a failure -- as any good general will do -- but never wanted to abandon Cailan.

It's been said by David Gaider that Loghain kept urging Cailan to stay off the front lines -- which we see in-game -- and was never intent on leaving him, though he did acknowledge to himself that he might have to do that if it came down to it.

It was only when Ostagar showed itself to be a failure that he knew he had to leave Cailan to die -- something that pained him to do if you bring it up in the Landsmeet.


[quote]Honestly, that sounds rediculous, especially when one takes into account the prequel books in which Loghain is *told* he'll one day betray Maric in some way.[/quote]

He's never told how he'll betray Maric, and Loghain doesn't see it as a betrayal. He sees it as a painful choice and one he wishes he didn't have to do, but he feels justified in having done it when **** hit the fan during the battle because Cailan's death was his own doing -- which is true.

[quote]On top of that we have the revelation (Return to Ostagar) that Cailan was likely going to divorce Anora because of her fertility problems and that, quite likely, Cailain was going to extend a Marriage proposal to Empress Celene in the hopes of Uniting Fereldan and Orlais.

Two Birds, One Stone. [/quote]

Except Loghain didn't know about what was being said between Cailan and other parties in the game. He acts completely surprised by finding this out, as opposed to an "Aha! I knew the boy was up to no good!"

So to use what Cailan would've more then likely done and say "Loghain knew these things" is not correct. It was originally the intention of Bioware that Loghain would've known these things, but that had to be cut out of the game and was re-addressed in a different fashion -- where Loghain only finds out about it if spared and taken to Ostagar.

[quote] So, again, I doubt Loghain leaving Cailain to die was Tactics.[/quote]

Shows how much you know about warfare.

[quote]
Unless you can link to the Thread or Interview I don't believe that for a second. The planned betrayal was so heavily implied and substantiated that if that wasn't the case it would be some truly terrible writing.
[/quote]

Here:

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.[/quote]

In this bit, David Gaider says that Loghain wanted to verbally confront Cailan on what he was doing -- his inexperience and fascination with war, his overtures to Orlais, etc. -- and be able to convince him of the folly of his actions.

But he never intended to leave Cailan to die.

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.[/quote]

Here, we have DG saying that Loghain entertained the possibility that he may need to issue a tactical retreat, the reason being his promise to Maric that no man -- not even a King -- would be more important then the kingdom itself.

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he 
prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.[/quote]

And here, it says that it was never a pre-meditated act of betrayal. It was Loghain doing what was in his nature -- and in his job being a General of the Army -- preparing for every conceivable outcome the battle could've had. An outcome that he was never certain he would do and never wanted to do.

And you can see in-game that the horde stretches back into the mountains of the Wilds:



[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote][quote]Hmm.. so Loghain was prepared to ditch Cailan but didn't necessarily want to? What was Loghain looking for to decide on that?[/quote][/quote]
He was hoping that Cailan would see reason. He didn't expect him to, but was hoping he would.[/quote]

And of course, this shows us that it wasn't a premeditated act of betrayal. That would mean Loghain had conspired to murder his king.

That is not the case. For it to have been a premeditated act of betrayal, he would've had to have kept forces from arriving at the fortress that would make Loghain's retreat more justified. But he didn't do that. Those were events that happened outside of Loghain's jurisdiction. 

Loghain planned for the eventuality that he'd have to retreat, as he planned for all things. But he did not plan for this by making sure Ostagar would be a flop. He saw in the previous battles how the horde was growing larger with each battle and that the battles would not be so easy going forward as they had been.

So he drew up plans for a tactical retreat if he needed to go through with it, and he knew that Cailan's demeanor meant he would've continued to fight on the front lines -- something he tells him is foolish and that he's repeating his protest of Cailan's fool notion.

So he knew that if he had to retreat because the battle could not be won, Cailan would die as a result. And he didn't want that. He didn't want to retreat at the cost of his king -- fool that he was -- so he was hoping Cailan would see reason, despite knowing he wouldn't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 décembre 2012 - 05:28 .

[TEWR]

Posting my Loghain defense once more.

Loghain was not well written. His Warden recruitment at the end was IMHO, an attempt to fix the cheesy cartoony dark villain he was until the landsmeet.

And he flips 180 degrees. Turns noble, cares about his daughter and the warden.. Very forced and not well written also. But no one can say he was pure evil because he regrets stuff and offers his life.

He always cared about Anora. That whole idea that Loghain would've killed his daughter? Complete BS. Howe approached Loghain with the idea, but Loghain refused to do such a thing -- something he'll tell you if you spare him. 

That wouldn't have stopped Howe from doing such a thing though, because Howe is the very definition of Complete Monster. He does things For the Evulz.

Nope, not buying.

FFS he pratically raised Caillan and left him to die. A good general could have left the battle when he saw their forces outnumbered,

That's what he did. 

You could argue that he should've attempted to save Cailan with a contingent of men ordered to do so -- whether they would succeed is irrelevant, though given how quickly he dies by Ogre and I'm assuming the mass of Darkspawn between Cailan and Loghain he couldn't have been saved -- but he did order a tactical withdrawal from the battlefield when it became apparent that they were outnumbered.

And Cailan's death was his own doing. Cailan was a spoiled brat, wanting to play war and fascinated with glory -- be it glory he wanted or the glory of others in legends.

Had Loghain attempted to rescue Cailan and failed, that would've been a politically sound move to try and get Ferelden to unify under his banner, as he did attempt to save their king.

But no one has ever called Loghain a brilliant politician. He isn't.

but the same good general would not poison the leader of the largest surviving army, refused help and tried to kill the 2 people who could help again the large darkspawn horde he saw with his own 2 eyes.

Writters dropped the ball on Loghain and then tried a Hail Mary saving pass. Didn't save it for me

Yea, no they didn't.

Let's look at if from his perspective, as opposed to the "OMG He's so EVUL!!!" one he's unfortunately painted with all too often.

Eamon was a threat to the nation's well-being after Loghain was forced to make a judgement call at Ostagar. We know that Eamon was poisoned after Ostagar, as Loghain has been with the King at the fortress for the entire time -- something Duncan states in the HN and Mage Origins.

Eamon would've been clouded by his relationship to Cailan and more then likely would've failed to see the actual necessity of the withdrawal. He would've instigated a civil war I'm willing to bet. Loghain didn't want this to happen. So he tasked Jowan -- whom he met in Denerim, as Jowan states -- to go to Redcliffe to teach Connor about magic and administer the poison to Eamon, but this poison was only supposed to render Eamon comatose.

Nothing more. If Eamon's condition worsened to the point of death, Berwick would've reported to someone in Loghain's cadre saying such, and Loghain would send the antidote.

Now, of course, Connor went to the Desire Demon pleading for Eamon to be saved. He didn't know Eamon wouldn't have died -- or that it was an unlikely scenario, anyway -- and so that's why he did so. And the demon did keep Eamon alive. She just kept his state of being from worsening.

Also, I very much doubt Eamon is the leader of the largest surviving army. That'd technically fall to either Loghain himself -- commanding the Teyrnir of Gwaren, as opposed to Eamon's Arling -- or Rendon Howe -- who by the time of the Battle at Ostagar, has claimed Highever and Denerim along with his already claimed Arling of Amaranthine.

As for the Wardens? Again, let's look at it from his perspective.

Here is a man who, for all his time at Ostagar, has not been told just how the Wardens know it's a Blight, other then vague comments where they say they "can feel it". While we the players know for a fact the Wardens are necessary, let's not forget that Loghain doesn't. We know the intricacies of the Joining. He doesn't. Not during Ostagar, anyway.

Duncan failed to tell Cailan or Loghain about these Warden secrets, which may have convinced Loghain that they're truly necessary. Had he known that they were linked to the Darkspawn hive-mind and could actually sense the Archdemon -- specifically, not those vague comments Alistair says Duncan told them -- then he would've realized "These guys are necessary."

All he had to go on were vague notions that they're necessary and tales about their prowess in battle. For all he knew, they were no different then the regular soldier, with only one thing distinguishing the Wardens from a soldier: they just fight Darkspawn all the time. 

That could've been the extent of it as far as he knew.

Now, I'll say for the record that I personally find the army to bear the weight of the blame, but the Wardens aren't without blame either. I give the army 60% of the blame, at most. If not 60%, I often split it evenly, as Duncan's actions prior to Ostagar show that he should've been pressed by the army as to the validity of the claims to the nature of the Blight -- his reason for going to Orzammar is to find evidence of the Archdemon.

But then again, the Wardens are supposed to do whatever it takes to defeat the Blights. One would think this would include lying about finding evidence on the Archdemon to make people believe it's a Blight and telling the heads of state and generals about Warden secrets.

But let's also examine Cailan. Here is a child trapped in a man's body who is fascinated with war so much he wants glory for himself. He finds strategy sessions boring, wants to be the one to kill the Archdemon with his father's blade, and goes on and on about glory.

During the battle, he ruins the plan Loghain put forth -- the Hammer&Anvil strategy -- during the session. Instead of having the men in the back -- maybe a couple of rows -- firing constant volleys of arrows into the Darkspawn ranks, he has them fire only one volley. 

Instead of keeping the Mabari hounds alongside his soldiers, he sends them out as little more then fodder troops where they kill, at most, 1-2 Darkspawn each before dying.

Instead of having the majority of his forces holding the line with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks, he orders all of his troops to charge out into the open, where they're then besieged by the Darkspawn on all sides.

While it's extremely unlikely that Ostagar could've been won using what forces they had there, Cailan's idiocy doomed them from the start.

And during the strategy session, the Wardens failed to speak up about their necessity or offering any real insight into how the battle could play out. 

Now, let's jump to what happens in the Tower of Ishal.

We the players are tasked with the duty of lighting the signal fire so that Loghain's men will know when to charge. The opportune moment for such a thing was when all the Darkspawn were in the valley, so that Loghain's men could corral the Darkspawn and begin to take them down. I refer you to KnightofPhoenix's blog images on the subject of Ostagar.



Now, we the players -- as well as Alistair, the Warden, the Mabari, a Mage, and a Soldier in the Tower -- know that the signal was delayed due to the Darkspawn invading the Tower. I'll tackle how this is Bioware's fault on being contradictory in their writing later.

As Alistair himself notes, the signal was surely delayed too much due to the Darkspawn.

Loghain however, did not know the Darkspawn had delayed the signal fire. Because of how late it comes -- and how fractured the army is now -- he believes that the Wardens deliberately delayed the signal fire so as to weaken Ferelden's national stability -- what with the King dying, and in his mind them hoping he'd lead his men to death too.

Had he charged, this is what would've happened.



Because if that happened, Ferelden would've had no choice but to rely on Orlesian assistance during the Blight, which would be a repeat of what they've done in Blights past.

In his mind, the Wardens are helping the Orlesians, as they've done in the past. In Blights past, the Orlesians used the Blights as a reason for "aiding" nations too weakened by the Darkspawn to stand on their own, and then after the Blight was ended they made it a point to never leave.

For more insight on that, see the history of Nevarra, the Free Marches, and IIRC the Anderfels.

As such, he truly believed the delay of the signal fire was done on purpose by the Wardens to weaken Ferelden and give Orlais the moment to "aid" the nation. Orlais itself has used the Wardens and the Blights to their advantage by helping further their expansionist policies, of which Empress Celene I was reputed to be an expansionist herself in Origins -- changed to being a peaceloving monarch in DAII.

So let's recap, shall we?

1) He knows little about why the Order is necessary.
2) Cailan believed that the presence of the Wardens was enough to win the battle. In truth, it wasn't, and Ostagar using Loghain's strategy -- or even what forces they did have there -- was unwinnable. This isn't to say Ostagar couldn't have been won had more forces been present and the place better fortified. I'm certain Ostagar could've been won, had things been different.
3) The Wardens did not speak up on anything that could help fight the Darkspawn.
4) Cailan ruined the battle plan.
5) The signal fire was delayed to the point of being too late -- and not accurate, as Darkspawn were still pouring out of the Wilds. For what reason, Loghain didn't know. But based on history, he had strong inclinations as to why it was so. He was wrong, but he didn't know the real reason.
6) Orlais has a history of using the Wardens and the Blights as grounds to further their expansionist policies, something Loghain brings up at the first Landsmeet.

From all of this alone, his opinions of the Wardens is not very high. He can only view them as Orlesian tools, because that's all the evidence has shown itself to be for him. He didn't have all the facts, but from what he did know it was not painted very well in the Wardens' favor.

Let's not forget the rebellion that happened in centuries past by Sophia Dryden -- a justified rebellion, but the truth was never publicly known. Let's also not forget that what happens in The Calling further adds fuel to the fires of why Loghain didn't trust the Wardens.

===========================================================================

Now, I said I'd tackle the whole Tower of Ishal failure on Bioware's part. This stems from them failing to properly keep their own character -- Loghain -- consistent with how he's portrayed.

He became Teyrn of Gwaren in 9:11 Dragon, so he's been the ruling lord of that area for 19 years. His own codex states that he's a man who wishes to know where his borders end and how best to defend them.

And yet Bioware made it a point to have Loghain completely in the dark about Ostagar's structure. This is a blatant failure of their writing, as David Gaider -- the man who wrote Loghain, IIRC -- failed to keep Loghain consistent.

Then, when we find out about the Tower's lower levels, we find that Loghain's first action was to... explore them? On the eve of a major battle? This is a failure from a military strategy point of view as well as writing, because while you should know the layout of a fortress Loghain should've already known all of this in the 19 years he was Teyrn of Gwaren and general of Ferelden, the man whose strategies kicked the Orlesians out of the nation.

But because he didn't know, we're supposed to be able to believe that the more sensible course of action when Darkspawn are at your heels in the Wilds is to explore these lower caverns? Seriously? NO. It's to immediately seal them up, preferably in such a way that they're unusable by the Darkspawn as it's pretty evident that these caverns will lead to the Wilds -- indeed, they lead into the very valley Cailan was in.

And before anyone goes "So doesn't this mean he deliberately left the Tower open to invasion and used the Darkspawn to justify leaving Cailan", no it doesn't. Gaider has said that Loghain didn't know about the Tower being invaded by Darkspawn nor did he plan such a thing. It was an unexpected thing.

The failure here being that the people that wrote the Ostagar scenario -- not the Cailan moment, but the Tower of Ishal thing and Loghain's ignorance on the entire fortress -- is a critical failure in military warfare knowledge and consistent writing of Loghain Mac Tir. 

As such, the blame falls on Bioware.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

See, if you were my king, I'd probably respect your personal decision as my liege, but as an advisor I'd think you were being stupid by going to the front lines without an heir to the throne.  Forseeing a chaotic succession crisis, I might decide that risking the lives of my men is well worth the chaos and death that may be averted.

 You would also weaken the country's ability to defend itself by saving me. See, the blight wouldnt have ended at Ostagar, so by risking our forces to save me we would have less men to fight the next battle.  

We would also have fewer men if we end up in a civil war without a strong leader to rally around.  Damned if you do, damned don't.

[AlexanderCousland]

*applause* to The Etheral Writer Redux for breaking down Ostagar, and taking time to quote Gaider.

@. Lord Aesir

In this case, you'd be the Leader. You also would have promised my Father not to put any one man over the security of Ferelden. Ferelden had it's Queen and Im not willing to concede that it was not Eamon & Teagan who started the civil war over the loss of their nephew. Without them, I doubt that the rest of the nation wouldnt have followed Lohgain.

(maybe Lohgain would have been assasinated by Howe, King Rendorn Howe.....perish the thought)

Who knows?

[RogueWriter3201]

@The Ethereal: This might sound like I'm trying to deflect, but I want a link to that Thread with Gaider's quote or I'm still not buying it (that or if Mr. Gaider has the time to jump on here and confirm...) Don't get me wrong, you've made great points in regards to Military Psychology but the events of Stolen Throne, Return to Ostagar, Various Codex Entries, *and* the dialogue of the characters in Origins seems to counter what your Gaider Quote (sans "Gaider" pointing out that Loghain was likely planning on Betraying Cailain due to the reasons I mentioned, just not right then at Ostagar), and your own stance, indicate.

Modifié par glenboy24, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:38 .