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[EmperorSahlertz]

BubbleDncr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wether or not the Golden City was always black, doesnt change the fact that it was the Magisters of Tevinter who went there, that brought back the Blight with them. So even if the mages didn't corrupt the City, they still brought the curse of the Darkspawn upon the world.

But if the Maker's City was alway black, is there really a Maker?

At that point it wouldn't matter if it was Tevinter Mages who brough the blight - what would matter is everyone in Thedas has enough reason to question the Maker's existence and that is how the Chantry loses power.

And since the Chantry are the ones who control the mages, either a new group would have to step up and control them, or the mages would be "free."

The Golden City being black, does not neccesarily disprove the Maker's existance. It would only prove the Chantry's canon to be wrong on some areas, yet it still wouldn't decimate it entirely. The Magisters still entered the Golden City, Andraste still walked Thedas, and the Darkspawn was still unleashed upon the world by mages.

[Heimdall]

BubbleDncr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wether or not the Golden City was always black, doesnt change the fact that it was the Magisters of Tevinter who went there, that brought back the Blight with them. So even if the mages didn't corrupt the City, they still brought the curse of the Darkspawn upon the world.

But if the Maker's City was alway black, is there really a Maker?

At that point it wouldn't matter if it was Tevinter Mages who brough the blight - what would matter is everyone in Thedas has enough reason to question the Maker's existence and that is how the Chantry loses power.

And since the Chantry are the ones who control the mages, either a new group would have to step up and control them, or the mages would be "free."

I think you are going to have to come up with a reason why the Chantry or any Andrastrian, or anyone really, is just going to take the Magister's word for it.  From their veiw, the Magisters that started the Blight are no more trustworthy than your average demon.  Or they could simply argue that the city was corrupted the moment the Magisters percieved it and they never beheld the Maker's glory.  There's no possible way to form an argument capable of convincing nations of people that have followed the teachings of Andraste for centuries that their god simply does not exist with such an untrustworthy source.  There is no way to corroborate the evidence.

Even if you could convince them that the city was black before the Magisters got there, most Andrastrians would probably simply opt for a non-literal interpretation, but again the Magisters are entirely uncredible.

The core of the Andrastrian faith is the belief in the prophet Andraste, not the belief that Mages started the Blights by invading the golden city.  She lead a rebellion against Tervinter not because of Darkspawn or an invasion of the Golden City but because of the Magisters and their cruelty and worship of dragon gods that demand blood sacrifices.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:11 .

[Iakus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Golden City being black, does not neccesarily disprove the Maker's existance. It would only prove the Chantry's canon to be wrong on some areas, yet it still wouldn't decimate it entirely. The Magisters still entered the Golden City, Andraste still walked Thedas, and the Darkspawn was still unleashed upon the world by mages.

Indeed.

The Golden City being blackened before the magisters arrived only proves that the magisters didn't blacken it.  The Chantry's canon is wrong/mistaken in this regard.  But it says nothing about the existence of the Maker himself. 

In fact, I believe that the Golden City was Golden at some point, given it's the one fixed feature in the Fade, visible from any point.  It has to have been "golden" at some point to be called the Golden City, right?  

I imagine the darkspawn will still be relevant unless the city can somehow be cleansed.  At least for two more occassions

But also the question also becomes if the magisters didn't do it, who did?  And why?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The City appeared Golden, that much is known. It is only after the Magisters entered, that even its outside appearance blackened.

[Heimdall]

Nizaris1 wrote...

henkez3 wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

If Grey Warden and Darkspawn is not the main theme or core story, then DA is nothing.

DA is not strong enough to be self centered game like TES series. It is not open world game.

Mage-Templar conflict started not because of Anders blow up the Chantry, not because of Circle condition, not because of blood magic and Tevinter Imperium, but because of Mages are to be blamed to bring Darkspawn into the world. The one who fight Darkspawn are Grey Wardens. If Grey Warden and Darkspawn is just a part of it, insignificant in DA2 , DA3 and so on...then it is all LOST it sense.

Grey Warden can be anybody, even Mages, that make it a unique order than a Jedi. Bioware took a wrong path if toss this order away making them 'just a part of it"

What? There is no indication of that in-game, you're putting words into the mouths of the writers.

There is, in mage origin if you talk to Duncan, he will mention what really happen between the Chantry and the Mages.

Duncan said "...it is because the mages who brought darkspawn into the world"

That is the real issue

Really, that's all you're basing that on?  Get me the whole quote, I suspect your taking it out of context and paraphrasing given the hack grammar.

Besides, everything else in both games contradicts the idea that the only reason people dislike mages is because of Darkspawn.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Really, that's all you're basing that on? Get me the whole quote, I suspect your taking it out of context and paraphrasing given the hack grammar.

Besides, everything else in both games contradicts the idea that the only reason people dislike mages is because of Darkspawn.

In context, it seems like he's saying "The Chantry believes X to be true," rather than "X is true."

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dragon Age is not about the Darkspawn... Darkspawn will forever be an intergral part of it, but it isn't the main issue. There is no main issue within the Dragon Age, there are however several storythreads, which all share the spotlight.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If Dragon Age is not about darkspawn, then remove the intro in DA:O...

Uhm... Why? Dragon Age: Origins was very much about the Darkspawn. The entire plot of DA:O revolves around the Darkspawn, and the intro sequence reflect that. DA2 on the other hand revovles around Hawke, with som heavy undertones of the mage conflict, and as such the cutscenes revovles around him and said conflict.

[Heimdall]

Nizaris1 wrote...
*snip*

In context, it doesn't seem like he's saying that the Chantry's belief in the origin of Darkspawn is the primary reason for their stance on mages.  He's using it as an example of why the Chantry feels the way they do about mages.  You're drawing more from this line than is actually there.

[Taint Master]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

If Dragon Age is not about darkspawn, then remove the intro in DA:O...

Uhm... Why? Dragon Age: Origins was very much about the Darkspawn. The entire plot of DA:O revolves around the Darkspawn, and the intro sequence reflect that. DA2 on the other hand revovles around Hawke, with som heavy undertones of the mage conflict, and as such the cutscenes revovles around him and said conflict.

Therein lies the problem.  Even if you don't think the Darkspawn or Grey Wardens were particularly innovative creations, they were unique to this setting and were thrust into the spotlight by DAO. 

Dragon Age carved out its name on the Warden/Darkspawn dichotomy.  Almost every fantasy setting has mages and templars, warriors and rogues, but Wardens and Darkspawn are the signature of this franchise.

As Nizaris pointed out, the mages' oppression had it's roots in the first blight, and was seen as one of many consequences of the Darkspawn attacks.  The mage/templar struggle was never the main focus though.  I happened to prefer it that way. 

DA2 got away from what made DAO/A unique and beat you over the head with the mage/templar conflict until the game didn't feel much like "Dragon Age" at all.  To me, DA2 almost felt like one giant side-quest, and as a result I never felt nearly as invested in Hawke as I did with the Warden. 

I'd love to see the consequences of our choices in DA:O and DA:A realized (potential old god baby?  intelligent darkspawn?).  I'm dying to see Weisshaupt Fortress in all its glory.  But all of that seems unlikely as long as the Wardens and Darkspawn are relegated to background characters.

[frankf43]

well seeing that they were the main focus of the main DLC from both games I would say yes they still have a big part to play in this story.
I'm expecting talking Dark spawn in a main game sometime soon.

[henkez3]

Nizaris1 wrote...

henkez3 wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

If Grey Warden and Darkspawn is not the main theme or core story, then DA is nothing.

DA is not strong enough to be self centered game like TES series. It is not open world game.

Mage-Templar conflict started not because of Anders blow up the Chantry, not because of Circle condition, not because of blood magic and Tevinter Imperium, but because of Mages are to be blamed to bring Darkspawn into the world. The one who fight Darkspawn are Grey Wardens. If Grey Warden and Darkspawn is just a part of it, insignificant in DA2 , DA3 and so on...then it is all LOST it sense.

Grey Warden can be anybody, even Mages, that make it a unique order than a Jedi. Bioware took a wrong path if toss this order away making them 'just a part of it"

What? There is no indication of that in-game, you're putting words into the mouths of the writers.

There is, in mage origin if you talk to Duncan, he will mention what really happen between the Chantry and the Mages.

Duncan said "...it is because the mages who brought darkspawn into the world"

That is the real issue

Not at all what I meant. You said the current Mage-Templar war was because people blame mages for the darkspawn, that isn't true. The current Mage-Templar war is going on because Anders blew up the chantry, Meredith enacted the right of annulment because of the crime of one apostate, leading the other circles across thedas to rebel and the templars took the fight to mages of course.

[ScotGaymer]

As I have said several times now.

What they writers and devs decide trump any individuals headcanon.

If you guys can't handle that then you don't deserve to call yourselves gamers, or even adults.

Nizaris.

I am sorry again but there is no other way I can say it. You are just simply patently wrong. From David Gaider's very own mouth no less. Ya know that guy who lead the creation of the world of thedas?

Dragon Age is not, and has never been about the Wardens and the Darkspawn. And don't think I didn't notice that you didn't actually respond to my allegory between Star Wars and DA. Your position was weak to begin with, and it grows weaker every time you post as it becomes more and more evident that YOU think YOU know better than the devs and writers, and you will not admit that you could possibly be wrong.

It's just stubborn, and pretty arrogant of you.

Your personal canon in how you played the games, and what you got from the games, does not and should not be imposed on everyone else. Especially when Word of God already said that your intepretation of the first game was not correct.

[SafetyShattered]

frankf43 wrote...

well seeing that they were the main focus of the main DLC from both games I would say yes they still have a big part to play in this story.
I'm expecting talking Dark spawn in a main game sometime soon.

This is what I was thinking too.

[Taint Master]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

What they writers and devs decide trump any individuals headcanon.

Is this directed at me?  If so, what "headcanon" are you refering to?  My post deals purely with the facts surrounding the ground work laid by the first 2 games. 

Dragon Age is not, and has never been about the Wardens and the
Darkspawn. And don't think I didn't notice that you didn't actually
respond to my allegory between Star Wars and DA.

You seem to have misunderstood the analogy.  Jedi and Sith are unique staples to the Star Wars universe just as Wardens and Darkspawn are to Dragon Age.  Even if the story encompasses broader topics, these are the core characters people associate each series with, and their conflicts are at the root of larger subsequent storylines (including the Empire vs Republic in Star Wars).

Modifié par Taint Master, 29 novembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[Savber100]

Taint Master wrote...
You seem to have misunderstood the analogy.  Jedi and Sith are unique staples to the Star Wars universe just as Wardens and Darkspawn are to Dragon Age.  Even if the story encompasses broader topics, these are the core characters people associate each series with, and their conflicts are at the root of larger subsequent storylines (including the Empire vs Republic in Star Wars).

Seeing as Star Wars have six films focusing on the Jedi vs Sith conflict while Dragon Age only has one focused on darkspawn vs Wardens, I don't see them as staples and more of a key component. 

As proven by Dragon Age II, the series focuses on the land of Thedas not the Grey Wardens. It focuses on the events that happens to the land which isn't really the war against the darkspawn but the issue of magic in the world. 

If anything the Mage issue has been the centerpiece of Dragon Age with mages being responsible for the darkspawn in the first place. 

I for one am happy that the games don't just focus on the black and white conflict of ugly orcs fighting great warriors. 

Boring, generic, and frankly uninteresting. One is enough. 

Modifié par Savber100, 30 novembre 2012 - 03:38 .

[Wifflebottom]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If fighting the "Orcs" is boring, why the hell you guys buying and play Dragon Age in the first place?

Because Dragon Age isn't about  Ugly bad guys vs Heroes  like a lot of medieval fantasy games

[EmperorSahlertz]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If fighting the "Orcs" is boring, why the hell you guys buying and play Dragon Age in the first place?

Because Dragon Age is about the bigger picture than just the "save the day from the ugly orc" kind of fantasy that many are used to. Dragon Age brings a spin to the mage issue that havn't been seen before, and bring a unique case of the Qunari into the mix aswell.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dragon Age brings a spin to the mage issue that havn't been seen before

Not strictly accurate. Other games have done similar things before.

None that I've played, but on TV Tropes there are a few games that have had the same basic principle -- Mages being corralled and watched by non-Mage people for reasons. Don't know if they've ever done the whole war between the two groups idea before, though.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 novembre 2012 - 04:31 .