203 réponses à ce sujet

[Flambrose]

whateverman7 wrote...

choice

edit: .just realized: this is another 'play the game by spreadsheet info' thread, so nevermind

Nothing wrong with using spreadsheet info to make decisions. Using the information incorrectly is the problem.

[thepiebaker]

Uberschveinen wrote...

Storm-Reaver wrote...

90% AP

AP doesn't mean a good goddamn on single-shot guns. The fixation on the stuff on every gun ever is beyond me.

Platinum Armor DR is, what, -50 to damage? And your Saber should be doing at least 500. If you have any weapon damage buffs, a lot more. And you do. Every class in the game is toting around 40% at the minimum, and the bigs ones over 100%.

So 90% AP  means that a Saber shot on armor does 495 instead of 450. Less than 10% extra damage. Only against armor. Compared to an Extended Barrel, that's less than half the extra damage. In the situation most favourable to the piercing, it's objectively worse than the EB to the point of absurdity.

In fact, AP is always worse than the Barrel on any gun that does less than 180 damage per shot. And even when that condition applies, it's not objectively better.

So why are so many people so fixated on AP values?

I don't equip any armor penetration anything for the bonus vs armor. I do it for cover penetration. Being able to ignore the armor plates on gusts cannibals brutes  the shields of guardians the mouth plate of praetorians or being able to shoot a Pyro in the face and not only deal extra damage if you nail the gas tank but also ignighting it is pretty invaluable IMO. Also being able to hit multiple enemies in a row is also a great asset

Edit: not to mention shooting them through any cover they're hiding beind

I'll gladly take the extra wheight for an increase on how much I can shoot through and still deal damage

Modifié par thepiebaker, 26 novembre 2012 - 08:36 .

[FellowMusicFan]

Do I have powers to worry about? No? Then Saber. The whole DPS argument works well on paper, but it doesn't always mean it applies well to actual gameplay scenario. It's ridiculous people even still bring up this as an actual argument. The Paladin fits in the category it's supposed to and so does the Saber. The Saber is a battle rifle and I can guarantee it'll outkill anything, especially bosses, over the Paladin. But if I have powers then the Paladin is a PERFECT alternative.

[Xaijin]

pierre0300 wrote...

 Hi everybody, so what do you think?

Paladin looks better : higher DPS, lighter. Is it worth taking the Saber?

The Big Iron teaches you how to get accurate, on demand head shots.

[mybudgee]

This just in: many of us play FOR FUN. Not everyone uses the most efficient loadout in each & every match..

[Mindlog]

On the XBOX for some reason I get headshots faster with an un-scoped Paladin than I do with the Saber. However, the bigger reason I prefer the Paladin is that I'm really low on AR amps.

But yeah, use what you enjoy

[mrcanada]

mybudgee wrote...

This just in: many of us play FOR FUN. Not everyone uses the most efficient loadout in each & every match..

This just in, that isn't what this thread is about. I hate comments like this. He asked a question and wants an answer, he isn't telling you to use the Paladin, he's asking why would you choose it instead.

[UKStory135]

Flambrose wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

OniGanon wrote...

The Paladin and Saber do extremely similar base damage per shot, with similar accuracy.

The Paladin shoots faster, but the Saber has more shots in the clip. This makes these guns pretty much even in terms of DPS overall.

The Paladin also weighs a heck of a lot less.

The Paladin, though, has access to the Pistol Heavy Barrel, allowing it to get higher damage and DPS than the Saber. It also has access to ULM, so it equippable on a hell of a lot more classes than Saber. (Note: these two mods shouldn't be used together on this gun though!)

So unless you're on a TGI with the AR specific damage boost, or you're on a class with a temporary boost like Adrenaline Rush or Marksman to take advantage of the Saber's higher clip, there isn't really any reason to take Saber over a similar level Paladin except aesthetics.
Hell if your Saber is low level, you might be better off with Carnifex X + HB + Clip

Actually at level X, the DPS for a Carnifex + Scope + Heavy Barrel = 568.  For the Saber X w/ Scope + EB it's 554, and the Carnifex is still lighter. I don't think that the Saber is a bad gun, it's not, but it is a distant 4th when it comes to the UR Assault Rifles.

If you guys are going to theorycraft, at least do it right. Saber has a higher base damage value than Carnifex, and all of your weapon damage bonuses will give it a bigger boost than a Carnifex. This includes amps, ammo, powers, and your passive.

On the topic of Saber vs Paladin, Paladin only has higher DPS until it needs to reload. While Paladin is reloading, Saber is still pumping out shots. They're similar guns in terms of power, but the magazine size is a selling point.

There are three types of DPS calculations that are used by ME3.  Burst DPS, is what you are talking about as far as a pure ROF*Damage. Sustained DPS also factors in things such as Clip Size and Reload Speed (It is (Damage*Clipsize)/(Time it takes to expel the clip + Reload Time)= SDPS.  A Third Calculation is the Reload Cancelled DPS, which also takes clip size and Reload speed into account.  These numbers aren't being made up.

I am not normally a spreadsheet player, but when two guns are as similar as these comparing their stats is very valid. With EB and Scope the Saber X is at 554.2 and the Paladin X with the Scope and HB is at 675.9 in Sustained DPS. A 22% difference is not insignificant.

[UKStory135]

Flambrose wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

choice

edit: .just realized: this is another 'play the game by spreadsheet info' thread, so nevermind

Nothing wrong with using spreadsheet info to make decisions. Using the information incorrectly is the problem.

You need to learn how DPS is calculated before you call people out for using it incorrectly.

Modifié par UKStory135, 26 novembre 2012 - 09:03 .

[YapperFlapper]

UKStory135 wrote...

Flambrose wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

OniGanon wrote...

The Paladin and Saber do extremely similar base damage per shot, with similar accuracy.

The Paladin shoots faster, but the Saber has more shots in the clip. This makes these guns pretty much even in terms of DPS overall.

The Paladin also weighs a heck of a lot less.

The Paladin, though, has access to the Pistol Heavy Barrel, allowing it to get higher damage and DPS than the Saber. It also has access to ULM, so it equippable on a hell of a lot more classes than Saber. (Note: these two mods shouldn't be used together on this gun though!)

So unless you're on a TGI with the AR specific damage boost, or you're on a class with a temporary boost like Adrenaline Rush or Marksman to take advantage of the Saber's higher clip, there isn't really any reason to take Saber over a similar level Paladin except aesthetics.
Hell if your Saber is low level, you might be better off with Carnifex X + HB + Clip

Actually at level X, the DPS for a Carnifex + Scope + Heavy Barrel = 568.  For the Saber X w/ Scope + EB it's 554, and the Carnifex is still lighter. I don't think that the Saber is a bad gun, it's not, but it is a distant 4th when it comes to the UR Assault Rifles.

If you guys are going to theorycraft, at least do it right. Saber has a higher base damage value than Carnifex, and all of your weapon damage bonuses will give it a bigger boost than a Carnifex. This includes amps, ammo, powers, and your passive.

On the topic of Saber vs Paladin, Paladin only has higher DPS until it needs to reload. While Paladin is reloading, Saber is still pumping out shots. They're similar guns in terms of power, but the magazine size is a selling point.

There are three types of DPS calculations that are used by ME3.  Burst DPS, is what you are talking about as far as a pure ROF*Damage. Sustained DPS also factors in things such as Clip Size and Reload Speed (It is (Damage*Clipsize)/(Time it takes to expel the clip + Reload Time)= SDPS.  A Third Calculation is the Reload Cancelled DPS, which also takes clip size and Reload speed into account.  These numbers aren't being made up.

I am not normally a spreadsheet player, but when two guns are as similar as these comparing their stats is very valid. With EB and Scope the Saber X is at 554.2 and the Paladin X with the Scope and HB is at 675.9 in Sustained DPS. A 22% difference is not insignificant.

But isn't multi-clip, reload-canceled DPS of the Saber X plus extended barrel over 720 damage?  The google doc with the weapon stats shows it at 583 before EB is figured in.

[mybudgee]

@Mr. Canada: To me, that IS what the thread is about. I decide what I think the threads are about, and I respond how I feel is right to me. Don't like it?? Too bad. Deal with it. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Hey, how about that grey cup. eh?

Modifié par mybudgee, 26 novembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[Sulliv9]

Dat noise?

[mrcanada]

mybudgee wrote...

@Mr. Canada: To me, that IS what the thread is about. I decide what I think the threads are about, and I respond how I feel is right to me. Don't like it?? Too bad. Deal with it. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Hey, how about that grey cup. eh?

Read the thread title, it has nothing to do with fun, he's comparing numbers and asking why. You sarcasticly add a response that has nothing to do with the question and come off like people here are some how missing the point of the game because they don't play for fun and rainbows. Move on to the FUN thread by all means.

[UKStory135]

YapperFlapper wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Flambrose wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

OniGanon wrote...

The Paladin and Saber do extremely similar base damage per shot, with similar accuracy.

The Paladin shoots faster, but the Saber has more shots in the clip. This makes these guns pretty much even in terms of DPS overall.

The Paladin also weighs a heck of a lot less.

The Paladin, though, has access to the Pistol Heavy Barrel, allowing it to get higher damage and DPS than the Saber. It also has access to ULM, so it equippable on a hell of a lot more classes than Saber. (Note: these two mods shouldn't be used together on this gun though!)

So unless you're on a TGI with the AR specific damage boost, or you're on a class with a temporary boost like Adrenaline Rush or Marksman to take advantage of the Saber's higher clip, there isn't really any reason to take Saber over a similar level Paladin except aesthetics.
Hell if your Saber is low level, you might be better off with Carnifex X + HB + Clip

Actually at level X, the DPS for a Carnifex + Scope + Heavy Barrel = 568.  For the Saber X w/ Scope + EB it's 554, and the Carnifex is still lighter. I don't think that the Saber is a bad gun, it's not, but it is a distant 4th when it comes to the UR Assault Rifles.

If you guys are going to theorycraft, at least do it right. Saber has a higher base damage value than Carnifex, and all of your weapon damage bonuses will give it a bigger boost than a Carnifex. This includes amps, ammo, powers, and your passive.

On the topic of Saber vs Paladin, Paladin only has higher DPS until it needs to reload. While Paladin is reloading, Saber is still pumping out shots. They're similar guns in terms of power, but the magazine size is a selling point.

There are three types of DPS calculations that are used by ME3.  Burst DPS, is what you are talking about as far as a pure ROF*Damage. Sustained DPS also factors in things such as Clip Size and Reload Speed (It is (Damage*Clipsize)/(Time it takes to expel the clip + Reload Time)= SDPS.  A Third Calculation is the Reload Cancelled DPS, which also takes clip size and Reload speed into account.  These numbers aren't being made up.

I am not normally a spreadsheet player, but when two guns are as similar as these comparing their stats is very valid. With EB and Scope the Saber X is at 554.2 and the Paladin X with the Scope and HB is at 675.9 in Sustained DPS. A 22% difference is not insignificant.

But isn't multi-clip, reload-canceled DPS of the Saber X plus extended barrel over 720 damage?  The google doc with the weapon stats shows it at 583 before EB is figured in.

I'm using the Tapermonkey Script for my calcs.

[Whatislove?]

4 things I can come up with why people use the saber over the paladin.
1. It's an AR
2. It has more ammo than the paladin
3. Sounds cool (lol)
4. and Personal usage they just like the gun more

I prefer the M-77 Paladin over the Saber, just saiyan.

[Flambrose]

UKStory135 wrote...

Flambrose wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

choice

edit: .just realized: this is another 'play the game by spreadsheet info' thread, so nevermind

Nothing wrong with using spreadsheet info to make decisions. Using the information incorrectly is the problem.

You need to learn how DPS is calculated before you call people out for using it incorrectly.

Yes, and as you've pointed out above there's burst DPS and sustained DPS (let's ignore non-reload cancel for this). Paladin has higher DPS on both fronts, but Saber's burst DPS continues until you empty the clip (that is the definition of burst DPS) and have to reload. Saber will have better DPS until it needs to reload (Saber's burst > Paladin's sustained), assuming Paladin doesn't get the job in one clip. Realistically, not much is going to survive 8 shots of Saber. Paladin's superior sustained DPS only really comes in against bullet sponges, and against them Saber still has an ammo advantage.

You're only citing one or two stats to make a point, but you're not applying it to the game.

Modifié par Flambrose, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[pierre0300]

Flambrose wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Flambrose wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

choice

edit: .just realized: this is another 'play the game by spreadsheet info' thread, so nevermind

Nothing wrong with using spreadsheet info to make decisions. Using the information incorrectly is the problem.

You need to learn how DPS is calculated before you call people out for using it incorrectly.

Yes, and as you've pointed out above there's burst DPS and sustained DPS (let's ignore non-reload cancel for this). Paladin has higher DPS on both fronts, but Saber's burst DPS continues until you empty the clip (that is the definition of burst DPS) and have to reload. Saber will have better DPS until it needs to reload, assuming Paladin doesn't get the job in one clip. Realistically, not much is going to survive 8 shots of Saber. Paladin's superior sustained DPS only really comes in against bullet sponges, and against them Saber still has an ammo advantage.

You're only citing one or two stats to make a point, but you're not applying it to the game.

Good point. You're right i didnt see things like this. What you're sayin is that because of the shorter clip size of the Paladin, the sustained DPS is applied more often than with a Saber. The Paladin would be better IF you had to shoot without stopping during the whole game.

[The Renegade Fem-Shep]

[Shrakelle]

Saber looks and sounds more awesome.

[Eric Fagnan]

We are looking at some Saber changes for the near future.

[Heggy]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We are looking at some Saber changes for the near future.

[ToLazy4Name]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We are looking at some Saber changes for the near future.

Whoa, really? Saber is one of my favorite guns, and I thought one of the more powerful guns. I'm not complaining though, by all means, go ahead and buff it. 

[Seventh89]

And now I want it even more. Why u no drop?

[Frosty10001]

I like the way the Saber sounds. Much more better than a Paladin.

[pierre0300]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We are looking at some Saber changes for the near future.

Really? Awesome !