45 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyrilix2]

Shady314 wrote...

dannythefool wrote...
Blood mage actually saves you a fight that can be challenging if you don't bring the right skills too early in the game and has no bearing on the story otherwise. 

Except of course for how you damn the soul of a little boy. But hey whatever. If it gets you out of a fight and only gets mentioned in the end what does it really matter? So much for roleplaying.

I so agree.

There are two things you can do.

1 - You can cheese it. Unlock and reload.
2 - You can man up and face the consequences (or maybe not consequences, if that is what you so desire) for your actions, or risk (as in this thread) being called a hypocrite.

This is not generic MMO #27 where all it takes is a bit of gold, a bit of grinding, a bit of questing to get something. This is the story, and the paths that you choose to carve out your story, so take your pick... #1 or #2.

Modifié par Cyrilix2, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:17 .

[dannythefool]

Shady314 wrote...

Except of course for how you damn the soul of a little boy. But hey whatever. If it gets you out of a fight and only gets mentioned in the end what does it really matter? So much for roleplaying.

That's the point, it doesn't change anything. If you want to learn Blood Magic, then you are already the sort of person who wouldn't care about Connor. Beyond that, there is nothing. Just compare to the troubles all the NPC blood mages have to go through in this game, you get none of that...

[Fulgrim88]

Nighteye2 wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...
Yeah this is a seriously annoying and frustrating one for me, having to desecrate the Urn to achieve this is a horrifying way to have to unlock a specialization. Especially given the consequences...which is to lose Leliana and Wynne in the process, both of them will turn on you regardless of whether they're with you at the time or not from every thing I've read.

Actually, I read that with high persuasion you can lie to Leliana to keep her, if she's not there with you. Wynne, however...

Do the Mage tower after the Redcliffe Questline and she joins you nonetheless. I killes Korgrim and lied to Genitivi, so absolutely no bad consequences for me. Leliana was never part of my group in the first place (My dwarf had no use for what he believed to be a chantry priestess), but if you can convince her and do the rest the way i did, you should be able to gain the spec without any negative consequences

[dannythefool]

Cyrilix2 wrote...
1 - You can cheese it. Unlock and reload.

If you cheese it, it carries even less weight. In theory you still made a deal with a demon, since that's the only way to get Blood Magic, but there's no downside.

[Shady314]

dannythefool wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

Except of course for how you damn the soul of a little boy. But hey whatever. If it gets you out of a fight and only gets mentioned in the end what does it really matter? So much for roleplaying.

That's the point, it doesn't change anything. If you want to learn Blood Magic, then you are already the sort of person who wouldn't care about Connor. Beyond that, there is nothing. Just compare to the troubles all the NPC blood mages have to go through in this game, you get none of that...

So because it's an evil class it should requires a good action to unlock so that an evil character must act out of character? And this would be BETTER?

This is ridiculous thinking. To get the class you must make a choice that is very fitting to unlock it. Make a deal with a demon. The way most blood mages are said to learn it. So Connor's life means nothing to an evil PC. So what? That's how choices work. Some are easy and some are hard. Some are easier for some people depending on who they are and how they think. Why should the devs come up with some sort of weird punishment just so everyone "suffers equally" to gain it?

Some people find the choice to kill Loghain easy and others the choice to spare him easy. That's GOOD.

You get no trouble for being a blood mage because you're a Grey Warden and thus untouchable by the Chantry and Templars.

[Shady314]

dannythefool wrote...

Cyrilix2 wrote...
1 - You can cheese it. Unlock and reload.

If you cheese it, it carries even less weight. In theory you still made a deal with a demon, since that's the only way to get Blood Magic, but there's no downside.

Or maybe I got my friend Jowan to teach me. Or I stole some of those books from Irving's desk. Or oh yeah I intimidated the demon to leave Connor alone forever AND got the spec. Forgot about that option didn't you. Choices are good. :happy:

[cooldevo]

Shady314 wrote...

dannythefool wrote...

Cyrilix2 wrote...
1 - You can cheese it. Unlock and reload.

If you cheese it, it carries even less weight. In theory you still made a deal with a demon, since that's the only way to get Blood Magic, but there's no downside.

Or maybe I got my friend Jowan to teach me. Or I stole some of those books from Irving's desk. Or oh yeah I intimidated the demon to leave Connor alone forever AND got the spec. Forgot about that option didn't you. Choices are good. :happy:

That makes a big assumption that demons always keep their word.... which I would HIGHLY doubt.

And you can't really be "taught" blood magic. You must be possessed by a demon as far as I can tell from the codex readings about it.

[Shady314]

cooldevo wrote...
That makes a big assumption that demons always keep their word.... which I would HIGHLY doubt.

??? It has nothing to do with her word. If she could come back and posess Connor at some other time she would have just fled and come back some other time. Not desperately tried to cut a deal. Anyways the lore says demons are bound to honor their agreements provided you are strong enough to compel them. A successful intimidate shows you are strong enough.

And you can't really be "taught" blood magic. You must be possessed by a demon as far as I can tell from the codex readings about it.

Um you obviously have NOT read the codex because they say no such thing and an abomination is vastly different from a blood mage. It most certainly can be taught.

[cooldevo]

Shady314 wrote...
??? It has nothing to do with her word. If she could come back and posess Connor at some other time she would have just fled and come back some other time. Not desperately tried to cut a deal. Anyways the lore says demons are bound to honor their agreements provided you are strong enough to compel them. A successful intimidate shows you are strong enough.

What lore are your referring to?  I haven't been able to find anything that says a demon hsa to hold their word to the very end.  I haven't gotten the codex entry for taking blood magic yet, so not sure what that entry says, but searching all the DAO wikis and pages hasn't netted me any lore saying that.  What link do you have?  I would be interested to read it.

And yes I was thinking abomination.  What I was referring ot was what you mentioned already about some learning it from a pact with a demon.

[Herr Uhl]

cooldevo wrote...

Shady314 wrote...
??? It has nothing to do with her word. If she could come back and posess Connor at some other time she would have just fled and come back some other time. Not desperately tried to cut a deal. Anyways the lore says demons are bound to honor their agreements provided you are strong enough to compel them. A successful intimidate shows you are strong enough.

What lore are your referring to?  I haven't been able to find anything that says a demon hsa to hold their word to the very end.  I haven't gotten the codex entry for taking blood magic yet, so not sure what that entry says, but searching all the DAO wikis and pages hasn't netted me any lore saying that.  What link do you have?  I would be interested to read it.

And yes I was thinking abomination.  What I was referring ot was what you mentioned already about some learning it from a pact with a demon.

To be fair, the desire demon in Shale-quest lied to me.

But there is a world of difference between being taught by a demon and being possessed by one. You are less of an abomination than a spirit healer in my opinion.

[Findarin]

um if you are a bloodmage before you go to the tower. Then afterwards it is entirely possible for Wynne and the Templars to attack you after you defeat uldred.



As for blood magic, it does tie in with demons. Those who practice it are more vulnerable to demon possession and the first true instances of it in Tevinter were taught to the Mages by demons in the fade.



Reavers are quite possibly the most evil thing in the game. You know all the blood that is in Haven. Reavers baby.

[cpz01]

Am i the only one that enjoyed smacking wynne around for a bit?

I like the fact that to gain this special skill set you need to be willing to live with the consequences of your actions. personally i poured the blood killed wynne got the skill, then took out Kol so i could summon the high dragon.. was a blast and 3 maning the high dragon, esp seeing i was down my healer and at level 18 at the time, WAS SMEGGING AWESOME!

[MohrDragon]

This is the exact reason as to why I run two games - one evil rogue who will become an assasin ( which killed Wynne on the spot ) and a good party with my Warrior who will become a champion.

this also makes my group setups easy. Its either way - and then I got the party of nerutrality

Evil ----> Shale, Morrigan, Sten.

Good -> Alistair, Wynne, Leliana.

Neutral > Not looking at alignment but rather who is funny - like morrigan and Alistair bickering over anything.

[G4M3RAID]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Iggynous wrote...
you would think you would learn it from the Legion of the Dead dwarves, it suits them far better

they would be reavers, dancing on the edge of life and all

Hehehe. Reaver Dance.

HAHAHAHA!!!! THAT'S TOO FUNNY! LOL!

[Relgor]

ok heres a quick little thing for all of you, the reason that they made it this way is because in life you must make a choice. you can either be good or evil, kill or spare a life. To that end a Reaver is a purely evil class so if you're one who would rather be good then perhaps a reaver is not the best choice. Also as a reaver you must also know that in game the circle of magi will also frown upon you're choice. Mabie not as hard as you're two companions but in all honesty you can't always have everything. Sometimes sacrifices must be made in ordr to achive you're main goal. I have gotten rid od Sten countless times simply because he annoyed me or he decided that he just could not agree with my actions but I didn't cry because I had other companions I could count on.

If you people are out there looking to have it all then good luck to you it just won't happen. And you cannot tell me that you don't have some party member that you picked up but almost never take with you to battle. Trust me theres no gain in haveing everyone in you're company when only a few of them become usefull to you. If you want to be mr./mrs. goody goodfellow then why be a reaver which is the opposite of that. You're character is you're creation, the story is you'res to create and every little thing is documented, weather that be someone leaveing , a choice you make or where you went and when. Make it you're own, my opinion is if you want to unlock the reaver for the sake of doing so then make a new story and have them unlock it, then go to the character you want to use it with, or do the save thing its what ever. Either way if a party member turns on you because of the desicions you made then I say good riddance, I don't need someone who doubts my choices holding me back.

[Relgor]

oh and btw NEVER trust a demon....they tend to lead you astray and they love to manipulate the situaion to thier favor....come to think of it , hey does that mean the government is a demon...or just used-car dealers, and lawyers.. lol

[ejoslin]

MohrDragon wrote...

This is the exact reason as to why I run two games - one evil rogue who will become an assasin ( which killed Wynne on the spot ) and a good party with my Warrior who will become a champion.
this also makes my group setups easy. Its either way - and then I got the party of nerutrality
Evil ----> Shale, Morrigan, Sten.
Good -> Alistair, Wynne, Leliana.
Neutral > Not looking at alignment but rather who is funny - like morrigan and Alistair bickering over anything.

Leliana is not good.  She was a bard and an assassin who LOVED it and her only regret seems to be that she trusted Marjolaine.  Oh, she's pious, but she will also admit she loved hunting men down and killing them or seducing them for information.

Wynne will betray you if she suspects you're a blood mage; Irving, if you have decent persuade skills, will tell her to mind her own business, but she does try, but only after you save the circle.  While you're saving it, she says nothing at all.  But she'd have you die for doing it once she finished using you.

I think that's the best part of this game -- none of the characters are good or evil. They have their own backgrounds and own agendas and if you take the time to get to know them, you can see that they all have many layers.  

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

I think that's the best part of this game -- none of the characters are good or evil. They have their own backgrounds and own agendas and if you take the time to get to know them, you can see that they all have many layers.  

Yep, they're like ogres, onions, and parfaits in that respect.

[Revik]

SLPr0 wrote...

Yeah this is a seriously annoying and frustrating one for me, having to desecrate the Urn to achieve this is a horrifying way to have to unlock a specialization. Especially given the consequences...which is to lose Leliana and Wynne in the process, both of them will turn on you regardless of whether they're with you at the time or not from every thing I've read.

It is basically a situation where an "evil" decision is forced to unlock a part of the game and I find that to be a very unacceptable method of unlocking a piece of the game content especially in a BioWare game which are generally always about alternate ways of going about things.

If by annoying and frustrating you really mean brilliant and refreshing I'm with you.

If the fire's too hot stay out of the kitchen and DONT be a cook.  There really is nothing more to say.

If making these kinds of decision makes you recoil then Bioware has succeeded.  IMO this is not something you should feel frustrated about but something to rejoice about.  When you get old and jaded like myself very little ever stirs these kinds of emotions and it is really something when a video game is able to manage this.

To me there are days when I feel like I am living out a day in Equilibrium.  Where I go about my day as if everything is a dull grey lacking life or spirit but when I can play a game like DA:O and feel moral dilemmas, emotional conflict that is when I know that I am truly alive.

Otherwise you might as well be taking your interval of Prozium.

[FynAch]

Heya all,

This thread was a facinating read and thank you all for your insights I thought it was amazing that this Choice in a game prompted so much intellegent discussion!....yup...even the 'opposing' sides have been civil to each other...Character to you both!



I haven't unlocked Reaver yet (which was why I was reading this), but WILL do this. I'll get a badass warrior and just make him the character type to make this choice.



Remember: This is a game...and This game choice started This thread:)

You die, reload. Your game crashes, Reload...um, yeah...and reboot, or reinstall, or wipe your comp. and reinstall/download everything.....difficult choices....have You made them here?

You might want to play Reaver to see it...seems like a choice is the to defile the Ashes and, reload. It's not a life choice, you don't like it? Shutdown the computer and....yep Reload.

I'm playing a mage atm and this is how I thought of her:

I made the youngest possible looking character and then....indulge me....thought of Star Wars. oh yeah.

Specifically Anikin in The Phantom Menace. That kid was cute, lovable, had the best intentions, love for all, etc....whatever about the rest of the movies....

(forgive a lot tis a good way to live).



And He Changed. Slowly. Became Darth Vader. A Sith. 'You are not with me? Then you are Against me!'

Hate or like the movies, observer this change and ask...how did it happen? Up to part III where the same kid slaughters the younglings in the temple of the you know who? How did a Sith infiltrate the highest levels?



So thats my toon atm.

I know she will do this Blood Mage.(and there will be a toon to play Reaver).

My Mage starts off nice....and slowly.....somehow.....one choice to save someone is ignored.

Rage of the battle just fought (you Attacked me?!?!?) remains to the next one.

Soon it will be no decision for her to use blood magic...to Save Connor and to wish to learn the same power to help others herself....

(Hey! Naive as I am, I Believed them when they said it would take too long to reach the Circle Tower!! LOL. We HAD to Save that kid!).



As for the warrior who will become a Reaver? He doesn't exist yet...but he's coming



So what have Bioware done?

What sort of game has so many people talking about the choices they make for their characters? We 'anguish' over how this will affect them. The decisions we make for them. The consequences those choices will have to the people traveling with us...We enter it into public discussion and 'Let It Be Known'...for how many to read? millions? Billlions? (check the 'world population' site if you want to know ).



Wait did I say 'people' in the last paragraph??.... Did you just say 'yeah' in understanding back there?



This is a game and it's really, Really. Good.

We face game choices, not Life choices.



Thats my 2 cents. Thanks for reading! Hope you all continue to have fun!



P.S: I read here somewhere about one guy/girl, who played Reaver/Something spec ALONE on Nightmare diff. ( end of game specs 99%) which got me interested in the class.

But can't find his/her description of how they did this anymore!! ..if anyone knows the link to this, please let me know!

Thanks again!

[FynAch]

http://social.biowar...66/index/432510

This is the guide I was reffering to - by Timortis. Great screenshots, good insights. Whrth a look if you curious about Reaver/Beserker