125 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

My point was that the majority of the dialogue options you had in DA2 were limited to three, whereas the dialogue in DAO wasn't restricted to three as much. Now there's flirt options or assist (where you call on someobdy to help you) but it didn't occur that often. I'm not saying that DA2 is bad or it's dialogue system is bad, all I was saying was it would be nice if that fourth (or optimistically, fifth) option was in there on a more consistent basis. It would usually alternate between 3 and 4 in DAO. There were a lot more fourth(or more) options in DAO. I'm well aware of how the dialogue wheel works. Putting one up and saying "this is how it works, you're imagining things" feels insulting to me. The core mechanic of the dialogue wheel is having 3 options based on allignment on the right side with the investigate option on the left side. They rarely use the extra top and bottom slots on the right left side. They could fit different allignments there. It would be nice if they did so, but they don't have to.

TLDR: I want more content.

[axl99]

In short, it's a UI nightmare.

[Plaintiff]

Firky wrote...
@Plaintiff. Tal-Vasoth is a qunari term, not an outsider term.

Where it came from is irrelevent, English appropriates terms form other languages constantly. Outsiders of the Qunari are not any more aware of the term 'Kossith' than the Qunari themselves are. Nobody in-game has used the word ever, it's meta-game information, there's no reason to suppose that it has ever been used by anyone currently living in Thedas.

[Plaintiff]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
My point was that the majority of the dialogue options you had in DA2 were limited to three, whereas the dialogue in DAO wasn't restricted to three as much. Now there's flirt options or assist (where you call on someobdy to help you) but it didn't occur that often. I'm not saying that DA2 is bad or it's dialogue system is bad, all I was saying was it would be nice if that fourth (or optimistically, fifth) option was in there on a more consistent basis. It would usually alternate between 3 and 4 in DAO. There were a lot more fourth(or more) options in DAO. I'm well aware of how the dialogue wheel works. Putting one up and saying "this is how it works, you're imagining things" feels insulting to me. The core mechanic of the dialogue wheel is having 3 options based on allignment on the right side with the investigate option on the left side. They rarely use the extra top and bottom slots on the right left side. They could fit different allignments there. It would be nice if they did so, but they don't have to.

So you want more choices? That's easy enough to understand. I think you could've made your point more effectively by simply stating that, rather.

I'm not opposed to more options, but I feel like the dialogue wheel as it stands covers a broad spectrum of tones, and simply doubling up on the pre-existing ones would be pointless.

If you can suggest a "tone' that would be very different from the main three (Diplomatic/Friendly, Sarcastic/Charming, Agressive/Direct), then I'm open to suggestion.

[Firky]

Plaintiff wrote...

Firky wrote...
@Plaintiff. Tal-Vasoth is a qunari term, not an outsider term.

Where it came from is irrelevent, English appropriates terms form other languages constantly. Outsiders of the Qunari are not any more aware of the term 'Kossith' than the Qunari themselves are. Nobody in-game has used the word ever, it's meta-game information, there's no reason to suppose that it has ever been used by anyone currently living in Thedas.

I don't want to get OT. But, it's a concept that makes one kind of sense to the Theodosians (a word I learned in the other thread) and a different kind of sense to players, which is probably why so many people grabbed onto the word, "kossith;" in an effort to describe non qunari, non Tal Vashoth, big, grey people.

Like, the internal process of making dialogue is one thing, but the interpretation of it - after the game has been released - is another.

The fact that all these things are meta-game is my point ...

[AmstradHero]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Firky wrote...
Like, this, "Here's a straight up fact: the way the conversations are structured and set up in DA2 is functionally identical to DAO," may be the case, but if lots of people construe the end result as vastly different, based on a combination of factors that also effect the delivery of dialogue, then the underlying structure of the process is less relevant to the point; that it just came across as a more restrictive system to lots of people?

The critic's lack of spatial reasoning does not constitute an error on Bioware's part.

Conversely, the perception of a problem is as much a problem as a problem itself.

In other words, just because there pretty much the same amount of choice in DA2 as in DA:O, people don't believe there is. This is a perception issue.

The fact that people do not get more than 3 "roleplaying" options in a dialogue node gives the perception of less choice, even if they subsequently get a second set of three choices that effectively still gives them the same six choices they would have had in DA:O's system.

While I don't see BioWare changing it anytime soon, I think it should be something that they should take into consideration simply because there's such a widespread perception that they're offering less choice than previously. Perceptions can kill (sales). While there are potential solutions to the issue, I won't rehash old territory or my own ideas here.

[Firky]

"Conversely, the perception of a problem is as much a problem as a problem itself."

Oh goodness. That's what I was trying to say. Thanks, Amstrad.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

In other words, just because there pretty much the same amount of choice in DA2 as in DA:O, people don't want to believe there is.

[upsettingshorts]

AmstradHero wrote...

Conversely, the perception of a problem is as much a problem as a problem itself.

In other words, just because there pretty much the same amount of choice in DA2 as in DA:O, people don't believe there is. This is a perception issue.

Yes, and the issue is with the people whose perception is demonstrably and categorically flawed.

AmstradHero wrote...

While I don't see BioWare changing it anytime soon, I think it should be something that they should take into consideration simply because there's such a widespread perception that they're offering less choice than previously. Perceptions can kill (sales). While there are potential solutions to the issue, I won't rehash old territory or my own ideas here.

One of the potential solutions is education, such as what Mary Kirby, Allan Schumacher, and David Gaider have been doing.  That threads such as these respond to the facts they put forward with intransigent denials and shifting blame - back to BioWare for the perception having existed at all - says more about the critics than it does the developers. 

How on Earth should they respond to people who answer their thoughtful, comprehensive explanations with, "Well, we don't care about the truth and neither should you."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:48 .

[2leggywillow]

AmstradHero wrote...
In other words, just because there pretty much the same amount of choice in DA2 as in DA:O, people don't believe there is. This is a perception issue.

There's only so much Bioware can possibly do about the tendency of some people to refuse to believe simple truths.  If they hand the audience a ripe whole apple and the audience smacks it out of their hands wailing that it's only half an apple, what can they really do about it?  If people are determined to be blindly wrong in the face of evidence to the contrary, they're kind of a lost cause.

[Fredward]

Ya'll do realize that the dialogue wheel had more options than the tree, yes?

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

Then the issue is with the player's perception. There's nothing the writers can do except point out, over and over again, that DA2's conversations work essentially the same way that conversations in all their previous games have.

While this is true, like the perception issues with friendship/rivalry, you can make changes that can work with players' perceptions, like visual cues that show how many total options there are. Because no matter how many times it's stated, people do NOT believe or understand that DAO did have investigate options like DA2 had, but they were all displayed together in a long list instead of a separate node.

However, just because players rage about the perceived lack of dialog options here on the forums doesn't mean that every player has that same perception, not even all players who disliked DA2. But the continued raging is a bit silly at this point, as many of those decisions for DA3 are probably already decided and as of yet we have no idea what, if any, changes or improvements they have made.

[upsettingshorts]

Assuming everyone is out to get you is just one way of reacting.

The other way of reacting is to consider that you may just be expressing yourself poorly.

Keep in mind, you described the dialogue wheel as "simple" and the list as having "variety." This is what people have been refuting.

Your issue seems, to me, to be with the fact DA2 made tones explicit, whereas in DAO they were not explicit. My response to this would be that as long as there is a voiced protagonist - regardless of whether or not their dialogue is previewed in a list or with the wheel - tones will be explicit. As to how many different tones are available at any given time, again, that's a request for more content.

In short, you've been framing the issue as one of wheel vs. list, when it's really voiced vs. silent protagonist.  Pretty much every issue related to dialogue has been confused for the another at some point, so it's hardly an uncommon mistake.  But folks do have a habit of blaming the wheel when they really mean voice acting, or paraphrasing, or personality tracking.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 novembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Fredward]

What does it matter if the list had more than three options? Six was the max if anyone is wondering. The wheel STILL had more.

[Fredward]

Kay, but Mr. Gaider said the personality archetypes (humorous, aggressive, diplomatic) were also in Origins they just didn't have the tone icons to make it obvious.

[upsettingshorts]

Then there is in fact a section of a previously quoted post that speaks to your issue, it's in In Exile's where he says DAO had on occasion more options that advanced the conversation, but this is a natural consequence of a voiced protagonist because each option has to result in someone (the protagonist) speaking the line. The reason DAO could get away with having more options lead to the same outcomes is because there was no cost associated with offering them.

A hypothetical, discounting Investigate options->

DAO:
Option 1: Silence (Leads to A)
Option 2: Silence (Leads to
Option 3: Silence (Leads to C)
Option 4: Silence (Leads to C, or ends conversation outright in some of your posted examples iirc)

DA2->
Option 1: Words A (Leads to A)
Option 2: Words B (Leads to
Option 3: Words C (Leads to C)

In short, I think I understand the problem. DA2's introduction of the voiced protagonist has a couple downsides, and that is the fact it restricts objective options for variety (in a small sense) and subjective, imagined options for variety (in a large sense). I get the impression your issue is with the former, and my response is:

Yes, we would all like as many options as possible, but unless it's a problem with the system itself, that's a request for more content. Which... nobody really has any objection to. But BioWare's only got so much time and money, so we'll get what we get.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 novembre 2012 - 07:40 .

[Allan Schumacher]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

All I want is more variety. More tones. That's it. Case Closed. I feel that DA:O has more because there is usually more than three dialogue options. I can pull up many examples of this. Apparently feeling this way makes me blinded by nostalgia or something. I love both DAO and DA2. All I want is more variety.

I think I have to agree that there's a barrier in how you're expressing your statement.  "I feel that DA:O has more because there's usually more than three dialogue options." 

Are you stating that DAO usually (note, this term denotes a majority of the time) has more than three dialogue options that couldn't be construed as investigates?

Because when you just say "they have more than 3 dialogue options" it's impossible to discern that you're not including the investigate options with them.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 27 novembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[AmstradHero]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Conversely, the perception of a problem is as much a problem as a problem itself.

In other words, just because there pretty much the same amount of choice in DA2 as in DA:O, people don't believe there is. This is a perception issue.

Yes, and the issue is with the people whose perception is demonstrably and categorically flawed.

How on Earth should they respond to people who answer their thoughtful, comprehensive explanations with, "Well, we don't care about the truth and neither should you."

How many people have come to these forums asking the same question or complaining about this issue? Or even better, how many people never come to these forums and have the same opinion?

Again, even though this belief is incorrect, it can still have a negative effect on the perception of the game.

[Fredward]

AmstradHero wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Conversely, the perception of a problem is as much a problem as a problem itself.

In other words, just because there pretty much the same amount of choice in DA2 as in DA:O, people don't believe there is. This is a perception issue.

Yes, and the issue is with the people whose perception is demonstrably and categorically flawed.

How on Earth should they respond to people who answer their thoughtful, comprehensive explanations with, "Well, we don't care about the truth and neither should you."

How many people have come to these forums asking the same question or complaining about this issue? Or even better, how many people never come to these forums and have the same opinion?

Again, even though this belief is incorrect, it can still have a negative effect on the perception of the game.

Unfortunately Bioware can't fix stupid.

[nightscrawl]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'm starting to get the sense that people aren't actually reading what I'm typing. Despite the fact that I have aknowledged that the Investigate styles are different and I've shown actual proof that DA:O has multiple instances of more than 3 dialogue choices in just one conversation, people are still calling me uneducated. I can see that I'm just dealing with people that like to attack others just for the sake of attacking them. Kind of a narrow way to look at life, but whatever.

Sorry if you got that from my post (above yours). I didn't read any of the thread, I was mainly just responding to Plaintiff's comments about player perceptions and used the dialog options as an example (which have been brought up as a point of argument by many players who feel there are fewer), like I also referenced the friend/rival perceptions.

I've been frustrated many times by my apparent inability to make others understand my point, so I know the feeling. That said, no one has been "attacking" you. I looked through the thread and it seems like a perfectly fine discussion to me. I've seen bad BSN threads, this one is doing just fine.

[edit]
OK nevermind, since people have to throw out words like "stupid." *sigh*

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think a Stoic/Non-chalant tone would be neat.

I've always wanted a neutral option. In certain situations in DA2 the humor option doubled as neutral in that it didn't have a set outcome that the other two paths had, but I don't really feel that is the same. Sometimes I really just want a no-nonsense type of response, like when dealing with Meredith in Act 3, rather than a supportive, aggressive, or snarky one. "I'm here to do a task, I've done it, now I'm leaving."

Modifié par nightscrawl, 27 novembre 2012 - 08:35 .