202 réponses à ce sujet

[ImperatorMortis]

Gyrefalcon wrote...

I would really like it but they still have to address the problem of possession and blood magic. If they don't have some non-mages to assist when things go awry, it may be like having foxes guard the hen house. Does not end well if everyone gets sucked in.

Non-Mages. Can. Be. Possessed. 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Sophia_Dryden



Hell even tree's, and cats can be possessed.





Having a Non-Mage around wouldn't make them any safer from Demonic possession. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 27 novembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
'Undoubtedly' nothing. There's no reason why he couldn't be treated as an equal citizen, with all due rights.

Elves that are (essentially) physical equals are not treated equally. Why would you expect superior beings to treat inferior ones the same?

Also not even slightly guaranteed.

One need not even look to the already established example of Tevinter to come to such a conclusion. It merely takes basic ratiocination and a working knowledge of the human condition, the latter being something you are clearly ignorant of.

Again, there is no reason to assume this would happen.

All States seek to increase their power.

[Zardoc]

Plaintiff wrote...

I say unequivocally yes.

There's no good reason to assume that a free mage state would be any worse than any other nation in Thedas. But it's important to remember that's not a high bar to clear.

Looking at how ****ed up Tevinter is, giving mages a state of their own seems like a pretty bad idea.

[Zardoc]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Gyrefalcon wrote...

I would really like it but they still have to address the problem of possession and blood magic. If they don't have some non-mages to assist when things go awry, it may be like having foxes guard the hen house. Does not end well if everyone gets sucked in.

Non-Mages. Can. Be. Possessed. 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Sophia_Dryden



Hell even tree's, and cats can be possessed.





Having a Non-Mage around wouldn't make them any safer from Demonic possession. 

Dead body=/=living mundane
Tree=/=living mundane

And AFAIK that demon was bound in the cat by Wilhelm.

Nonmages can only be possessed if they are a)dead or b)a mage summons demons into them.

5 Templars vs 5 Mages? The Mages would win. Why? 

Range(Mages don't have to whack somone with something for them to die). 
Versatility
Protection(Rock Armor/Arcane Shielding to protect them from swords.)
Healing
POWER
The Templars would probably take out 2 mages. But if any of them were Blood Mages or Force Mages..  Man..

So you conveniently ignore the fact that templars have plenty abilities to stop mages from being anything but squishy weaklings?

Modifié par Zardoc, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[TEWR]

Why would they need a circle if everyone there were mages? And of course they would educate each other on magic. All mages do that, even apostates.

That's simply what I mean by a Circle. Magical education. If they're going to be living alongside each other and having children, chances are more Mages are going to be born -- the exact circumstance determining this being unknown, whether it's genetic or an external factor.

So they're going to need to teach these children about magic.

[TEWR]

Dead body=/=living mundane

It's never really explained if Sophia Dryden was dead or alive when she was possessed. Since a Demon of Pride was the one that possessed her, it should've created a Revenant if she was dead -- and its intelligence would've disappeared.

But it didn't.

And yet Sophia's skin looks like ****, due to possible decomposition. Or just age.

Nonmages can only be possessed if they are a)dead or b)a mage summons demons into them.

Or C) A demon summons demons into them.

Or D) There's enough of a tear in the Veil for Demons to cross over on their own and do it.

[ImperatorMortis]

Zardoc wrote...

Dead body=/=living mundane
Tree=/=living mundane

And AFAIK that demon was bound in the cat by Wilhelm.

Nonmages can only be possessed if they are a)dead or b)a mage summons demons into them.

Tree's are alive. 

There is no reason why a mundane can't be possessed by a demon of its own will. Mundanes don't have a resistance to that kind of thing. The thing is. Its that Demons don't give a crap about possessing normal humans, because they're weak. Not that they can't. 

What would you rather have? 

This? 

https://encrypted-tb...BdxrCb5mmFFxOBY

or 

This? 

https://encrypted-tb...Voi8i9zmKVmJbcN

Mages are the steak btw. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Zardoc]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dead body=/=living mundane

It's never really explained if Sophia Dryden was dead or alive when she was possessed. Since a Demon of Pride was the one that possessed her, it should've created a Revenant if she was dead -- and its intelligence would've disappeared.

But it didn't.

And yet Sophia's skin looks like ****, due to possible decomposition. Or just age.

Nonmages can only be possessed if they are a)dead or b)a mage summons demons into them.

Or C) A demon summons demons into them.

Or D) There's enough of a tear in the Veil for Demons to cross over on their own and do it.

And again it comes down to magic being to source. Without a mage summoning the demon, Sophia would never have been possessed. Same goes for other demons summoning new ones into mundanes.

The last one only happens in to cases: Either enormous bloodshed over prolonged periods of time, or, surprise surprise, a mage does it.

[Zardoc]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Dead body=/=living mundane
Tree=/=living mundane

And AFAIK that demon was bound in the cat by Wilhelm.

Nonmages can only be possessed if they are a)dead or b)a mage summons demons into them.

Tree's are alive. 

There is no reason why a mundane can't be possessed by a demon of its own will. Mundanes don't have a resistance to that kind of thing. The thing is. Its that Demons don't a crap about possessing normal humans, because they're weak. Not that they can't. 

What would you rather have? 

This? 

-snip-

or 

This? 

-snip-

Mages are the steak btw. 

Comparing trees to animals in general=f*cking lol.

Also, you still need a mage to let a demon into the real world. It always comes down to magic.

Modifié par Zardoc, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Why would they need a circle if everyone there were mages? And of course they would educate each other on magic. All mages do that, even apostates.

That's simply what I mean by a Circle. Magical education. If they're going to be living alongside each other and having children, chances are more Mages are going to be born -- the exact circumstance determining this being unknown, whether it's genetic or an external factor.

So they're going to need to teach these children about magic.

Also, not everyone will have the same aptitude at teaching, which would force parents to seek out the best tutors for their children. As for a worse case scenario of a non Circle trained mage, imagine someone being taught by Jowan.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...
Elves that are (essentially) physical equals are not treated equally. Why would you expect superior beings to treat inferior ones the same?

Which proves nothing, except that Thedas is ruled by bigots. There's no reason to assume that a new state, formed by mages or anyone else, would suffer the same flaws.

One need not even look to the already established example of Tevinter to come to such a conclusion. It merely takes basic ratiocination and a working knowledge of the human condition, the latter being something you are clearly ignorant of.

One need only look at the established example of Ancient Rome to know that giving Italians any power will result in an opressive empire spanning most of the globe!

Except oh wait, that's not true at all, because Ancient Rome is irrelevant to modern Italy, just like Tevinter is irrelevant to all the mages that have been born outside it and never had anything to do with it.

Your argument makes as much sense as saying 'The USA dropped atom bombs on Japan before, so it's only a matter of time! Germany invaded Poland and committed genocide, so they're bound to do it again any day now!"

Only your example is even more patently ridiculous because the mages fighting for their freedom in other nations of Thedas have no historical or emotional connection to Tevinter, and would even seem to actively despise it.

All States seek to increase their power.

It's not a requirement. The fact that many world powers are or have been greedy is an unfortunate coincidence, but that does not indicate that future tyranny is inevitable.

[Vitlen]

The only real hope for mages is strong united Tevinter Empire
Any mage who do not understand that will be put to Templars`s sword.

[ImperatorMortis]

Zardoc wrote...

Comparing trees to animals in general=f*cking lol.

Did I say that? I thought I just said that Tree's were alive. Since "living" was mentioned. 

Zardoc wrote...
Also, you still need a mage to let a demon into the real world. It always comes down to magic.

No it doesn't. Play DA:O. The Woods where the Grand Oaks was in were spirits, and demons that came through the veil by all the bloodshed that happened there. 

http://dragonage.wik...recilian_Forest

Not to mention the abandoned Orphanage. 

http://dragonage.wik...doned_Orphanage

So no it doesn't always come down to Magic. The only real prerequisite is that copious amounts of Blood need to be spilt. Rituals only speed up the process. 

And I seriously doubt you're gonna get anyone, especially Fereldens, and Antivans to stop spilling blood. 

In conclusion: Mages aren't the problem. Its people in general. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:33 .

[Plaintiff]

Zardoc wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I say unequivocally yes.

There's no good reason to assume that a free mage state would be any worse than any other nation in Thedas. But it's important to remember that's not a high bar to clear.

Looking at how ****ed up Tevinter is, giving mages a state of their own seems like a pretty bad idea.

"Looking at how ****ed up Africa is, giving black people a state of their own seems like a pretty bad idea."

Assuming that mages in other nations will act like mages in Tevinter is nonsensical bigotry, the two groups are not connected in any way, except by the extremely tenuous coincidence that they can both use magic.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[ImperatorMortis]

Zardoc wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I say unequivocally yes.

There's no good reason to assume that a free mage state would be any worse than any other nation in Thedas. But it's important to remember that's not a high bar to clear.

Looking at how ****ed up Tevinter is, giving mages a state of their own seems like a pretty bad idea.

I dunno Tevinter seems to be doing pretty well considering all the crap they've been through. Any other country would have been destroyed/conquered by now. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
Which proves nothing, except that Thedas is ruled by bigots. There's no reason to assume that a new state, formed by mages or anyone else, would suffer the same flaws.

Oh boy. I believe this wil be addressed in the next few points.

One need only look at the established example of Ancient Rome to know that giving Italians any power will result in an opressive empire spanning most of the globe!

Except oh wait, that's not true at all, because Ancient Rome is irrelevant to modern Italy, just like Tevinter is irrelevant to all the mages that have been born outside it and never had anything to do with it.

Your argument makes as much sense as saying 'The USA dropped atom bombs on Japan before, so it's only a matter of time! Germany invaded Poland and committed genocide, so they're bound to do it again any day now!"

Ethnicity and/or nationality is not comparable to innate magical power.

Those who have power (magical or no) will use this power against those who are weaker for personal gain. Ergo a whole state comprised entirely of those with superior magical power are going to use it against inferior non-magical states for personal gain.

This is true of all states regardless of ethnicity or nationality.

It's not a requirement. The fact that many world powers are or have been greedy is an unfortunate coincidence, but that does not indicate that future tyranny is inevitable.

States seeking to empower themselves need not have anything to do with tyranny. This is what all states do.

And it's not 'many' that have been greedy, it's all of them.

Modifié par GodWood, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Fredward]

I wouldn't actually. The whole fight is for their freedom and un-segregation and now they want to go and do that anyway? Besides creating a state run completely by mages is just begging for another Imperium, ie a mage dominanted culture. I also don't see why they would want to do this seeing as how Tevinter is right there.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...
Ethnicity and/or nationality is not comparable to innate magical power.

Obviously it is. Your entire argument hinges on the notion that two entirely separate groups of people will behave in the exact same way, based purely on one extremely tenuous connection.

Those who have power (magical or no) will use this power against those who are weaker for personal gain. Ergo a whole state comprised entirely of those with superior magical power are going to use it against inferior non-magical states for personal gain.

This is true of all states regardless of ethnicity or nationality.

It's not true of any state. There is nothing stopping a country from simply not being a douche to other countries.

States seeking to empower themselves need not have anything to do with tyranny. This is what all states do.

Nothing is forcing them to do it, they could stop if they wanted.

And it's not 'many' that have been greedy, it's all of them.

Have been, perhaps, but several abandoned that behaviour a long time ago, and there's nothing at all stopping the nations of Thedas from doing the exact same thing. There are no barriers, except the ones that people invent in the privacy of their own heads.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff what's the deal with that Africa analogy? It completely ignores how colonialism is a major catalyst for most of it's conflicts, and that the whole of the continent is not a civil war ridden 3rd world s***hole it's typecasted to be in Western media.

[esper]

I am not against it, but I honestly don't think that it would solve the problem as mage children would continue to be born outside of the mage state.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Ethnicity and/or nationality is not comparable to innate magical power.

Obviously it is.

No it is not.

Two humans with differing skin pigmentation have essentially the same skillset and potential. A mage and a non-mage do not.

Your entire argument hinges on the notion that two entirely separate groups of people will behave in the exact same way, based purely on one extremely tenuous connection.

My entire argument comes down to groups with power exerting their power over groups with less power. I base this on the fact that this is what all creatures do.

It's not true of any state.

No states exert power over one another?

Wha-?

There is nothing stopping a country from simply not being a douche to other countries.

Except the drive for personal gain and to maintain their own sovereignty.

Have been, perhaps, but several abandoned that behaviour a long time ago,

This should be good.

Example?

[Celene II]

Zardoc wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I say unequivocally yes.

There's no good reason to assume that a free mage state would be any worse than any other nation in Thedas. But it's important to remember that's not a high bar to clear.

Looking at how ****ed up Tevinter is, giving mages a state of their own seems like a pretty bad idea.

There are 193 nations in the world today. Some turn bad, some do not.

Just because 1 nation of mages went evil doesnt mean another would turn bad. They might be the best nation ever.

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff what's the deal with that Africa analogy? It completely ignores how colonialism is a major catalyst for most of it's conflicts, and that the whole of the continent is not a civil war ridden 3rd world s***hole it's typecasted to be in Western media.

The perception of it in Western media is why I used it. People believe that it's a terrible place generally, but they don't use that as an excuse to say black people shouldn't be in positions of power.

Whether or not it actually is a terrible place is beside the point. The point is that judging two separate groups of people based on a completely superficial similarity, be it ethnicity or a shared talent, is not only illogical, but the very definition of bigotry.

[esper]

Zardoc wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I say unequivocally yes.

There's no good reason to assume that a free mage state would be any worse than any other nation in Thedas. But it's important to remember that's not a high bar to clear.

Looking at how ****ed up Tevinter is, giving mages a state of their own seems like a pretty bad idea.

Every state in Thedas is ****ed up.
Fereldan had an inner structure that made a blight a perfect opportunity to start a civil war, also no one battered an eyelash at a noble house been killed (Cousland, that happens regardless), also the way the Alienage was handled.

Orlais is an empire with expansion dreams, also at the brink at the civil war, the chantry has far to much control, also the chevaliers apperently have the legal power to rape whoever the want to.

Antiva is more and less run by assassin,

Seheron is home the qunari which deserve a page for it self, it is also place for the war between tevinter and the qunari.

Rivani is clash between alot of cultures that doesn't really get along so I am sure that makes a lot of violence, the country also produces a lot of pirates.

The dalish is splintered  into tiny and are desperate groups searching for a past long forgotten and lost, while generally being arrogant ****s.

The chasind we don't know much about, but rumours has it that they ar cannibal and savages.

Modifié par esper, 27 novembre 2012 - 07:15 .

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...
This should be good.

Example?

Australia is not an expansionist or subjugative power. Many smaller European nations are not either, with Switzerland being a prominent example.