202 réponses à ce sujet

[harmoniousk]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm not sure where people get the idea that the common people are so accepting. People accept Anders because he readily heals them, I doubt that was an overnight occurrance. When Wynn's foster parent found out about her power they locked her in a barn.

Wasn't trying to imply that mages are embraced with open arms across all of Thedas. I know that not to be true but there are folks who do help the mages and, in a DA:O codex entry, it does say that as long as mages do not use their magic for harm, they'd be accepted as brothers and sisters. Just applying those concepts to the hypothetical situation that started this thread that were the mages actually to have an army behind them to support them (which implied - to me - a lot of non-mage supporters) would I support them in creating a separate nation. Sorry if I confused anyone with my response.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Foolsfolly wrote...

As the title says.

If it came to it and a group of mages and a gathered army stood together in the hopes of forging a new state without the Chantry, Circles, or any other mage oppressing organization. Would you stand with them?

No. It would allow them to tear the world's veil apart and release demons all over the world. 

Foolsfolly wrote...


Personally, I think it'd be a gas. Carve out a piece of the Free Marches or Orlais and make it a free non-Tevinter Empire state for mages. Does it have a chance of surviving? Hell no. There'd be so many Divine Marches called against it that it'll fall from outside forces long before there'd be any interal collapse.

 But free men and women united fighting for independence would be a fun story. Even if it just leads to the gallows.

Independence of what? The chantry or the circle? As far as I concern, free men and women of Thedas are afraid of mages, blood magic, maleficar and abomination.

I think it's more fun to look back in the past through Andraste's eyes, how free barbarian men, women and elves united againt the mages oppressor of Tervinter Imperium and win the day without any silly exaggeration that The Maker involved.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 28 novembre 2012 - 01:31 .

[Sibu]

Plaintiff wrote...

Australia is not an expansionist or subjugative power. Many smaller European nations are not either, with Switzerland being a prominent example.

You are actually using examples of the 21 century?

Good Grief!

[Heimdall]

harmoniousk wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm not sure where people get the idea that the common people are so accepting. People accept Anders because he readily heals them, I doubt that was an overnight occurrance. When Wynn's foster parent found out about her power they locked her in a barn.

Wasn't trying to imply that mages are embraced with open arms across all of Thedas. I know that not to be true but there are folks who do help the mages and, in a DA:O codex entry, it does say that as long as mages do not use their magic for harm, they'd be accepted as brothers and sisters. Just applying those concepts to the hypothetical situation that started this thread that were the mages actually to have an army behind them to support them (which implied - to me - a lot of non-mage supporters) would I support them in creating a separate nation. Sorry if I confused anyone with my response.

I feel you underestimate how many people fear mages, if only for the sheer unknown they represent.  Remember, the codex is a mix of opinion and historical knowledge.  I could certainly see a large number of common folk tolerating mages and allowing them to live among them without malice, fighting for them is another matter entirely.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 28 novembre 2012 - 02:56 .

[harmoniousk]

Lord Aesir wrote:
I feel you underestimate how many people fear mages, if only for the sheer unknown they represent. Remember, the codex is a mix of opinion and historical knowledge. I could certainly see a large number of common folk tolerating mages and allowing them to live among them without malice, fighting for them is another matter entirely.

I get your point. It was just that the question posed on this thread has you making the assumption that the mages do have an army behind them. It was a "would you support them then" sort of question. That is what I'm basing my answer on.

[ImperatorMortis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Anti-magic items.

What anti-magic items? 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
How?
Numbers. 
And getting to mages early, before they can maste their powers.

So ganging up on, and killing kids? 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Also pooisoning or killing in the sleep works too.

Because they would be able to sneak into a Magically protected stronghold to do such a thing right? Also I'm pretty sure a Mage would have a spell to cure poison. 

My example was about how Mundanes could never beat them in a all out conflict/fair fight. But thanks for proving my point, and that Templars are nothing but weak cowards. 

Not to mention in an all out conflict most of the healers(mages) would be fighting on the.. *shock* MAGE SIDE. 
So enjoy your templars dying from disease, and injuries, and having no one (or a extremely small ammount) of mages to heal them. 

Mages are living medics, artiliary, shock troops. A single mage is worth atleast 10 well trained mundanes. Winning against Mages in a conflict is impossible. Unless you have a Deus Ex Machina on your side. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mundanes have just as much resistance to possesion as mages have - none.
Except mundanes are practicly invisible to demons (and also uninteresting) and don't have a constant presence in the Fade.

A mundane being possesed requires extraoridnary circumstances, but it can happen.

Nothing says that a Mage can't resist possession. Its all about willpower, and the average Mage has considerably more willpower than the average mundane. Mostly because their powers require it. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 28 novembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Mr.House]

No. Do the words veil torn asunder mean anything to you?

Mages need to be watched over, but not the way the Chantry does it.

Modifié par Mr.House, 28 novembre 2012 - 05:13 .

[Celene II]

Mr.House wrote...

No. Do the words veil torn asunder mean anything to you?

Mages need to be watched over, but not the way the Chantry does it.

Incredibly smart people invented and built atomic weapons that killed 150,000 people. Should now all smart people be required to be "watched over"

Is intent not relevant anymore? Motive?

Mages are people with access to power, thats it. It doesn't mean that they should be checked up on all the time.

[Mr.House]

Celene II wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

No. Do the words veil torn asunder mean anything to you?

Mages need to be watched over, but not the way the Chantry does it.

Incredibly smart people invented and built atomic weapons that killed 150,000 people. Should now all smart people be required to be "watched over"

Is intent not relevant anymore? Motive?

Mages are people with access to power, thats it. It doesn't mean that they should be checked up on all the time.

Do you know what will happen if the veil is torn asusder for good?

Also comparing what I said to WW2? Really? REALLY?

[In Exile]

I can't see how this works.

How do you deal with the presumably non-mages who are part of the "free mage" state? Do we have a mage king? Is it a democracy? If it's a democracy (which doesn't even seem to exist as a polical concept in Thedas, but anyway) how do you avoid a tyranny of the majority scenario (since the line between non-mages and mages is quite harshly drawn in the sand)?

How do you avoid a French Revolution era problem (i.e., all the other nations will stay at war with you because your very existence is a threat to their political order)?

[Vit246]

Mr.House wrote...

Celene II wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

No. Do the words veil torn asunder mean anything to you?

Mages need to be watched over, but not the way the Chantry does it.

Incredibly smart people invented and built atomic weapons that killed 150,000 people. Should now all smart people be required to be "watched over"

Is intent not relevant anymore? Motive?

Mages are people with access to power, thats it. It doesn't mean that they should be checked up on all the time.

Do you know what will happen if the veil is torn asusder for good?

Also comparing what I said to WW2? Really? REALLY?

I doubt that the Veil could even be "torn asunder for good".

Free mages have existed for thousands of years long before the Chantry and Templars and even Tevinter. Has the Veil been "torn asunder for good" yet?

Even as Tevinter, a free mage state, has existed for over 2000 years, has the Veil been "torn asunder for good" yet?

Modifié par Vit246, 28 novembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Mr.House]

Vit246 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Celene II wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

No. Do the words veil torn asunder mean anything to you?

Mages need to be watched over, but not the way the Chantry does it.

Incredibly smart people invented and built atomic weapons that killed 150,000 people. Should now all smart people be required to be "watched over"

Is intent not relevant anymore? Motive?

Mages are people with access to power, thats it. It doesn't mean that they should be checked up on all the time.

Do you know what will happen if the veil is torn asusder for good?

Also comparing what I said to WW2? Really? REALLY?

I doubt that the Veil could even be "torn asunder for good".

Free mages have existed for thousands of years long before the Chantry and Templars and even Tevinter. Has the Veil been "torn asunder for good" yet?

Even as Tevinter, a free mage state, has existed for over 2000 years, has the Veil been "torn asunder for good" yet?

Yjere are many places where the veil is thin or gone because of magic. Tevinter is also not a free mage state as it has the Black Chantry. Leavings mages with no one to watch them or police them would be a disaster.

Modifié par Mr.House, 28 novembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[Loyal Tevinter]

I would support a new mage state, can't wait to play as a mage in the next game!

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

No way I'd support this unless all mages are sent to some type of Circle of Magi School to study magic properly. With their families being allowed to visit or the mage allowed to visit his/her family. I do think their needs to be some type of Templar oversight, to hunt mages that go rogue into blood magic. Thedas will need to have Templars to fight cosmic forces when the Veil is torn. I think someone like Fiona as the Grand Enchanter needs to give permission for the rogue mage to be hunted before Templars/Wardens can be sent. When a rogue bloodmage is caught, make that mage a warden to fight the darkspawn. I'd really like to know more on why the Qunari chain their mages like they do before a new mage state happens. We already have a mage state called Trevinter. I don't think we need to see another one.

Wardens could also be used to help fight/hunt rogue mages who turn to blood magic even though Wardens need mages and the use of bloodmagic to fight darkspawn. I feel Wardens do a better job than templars. This would really come down to each Warden Commander and The First Warden's views. So should the Templars and Wardens join forces?

[ImperatorMortis]

Mr.House wrote...
Yjere are many places where the veil is thin or gone because of magic. Tevinter is also not a free mage state as it has the Black Chantry. Leavings mages with no one to watch them or police them would be a disaster.

And there are many places the veil is thin because of nothing that had anything to do with magic. The veil can be thinned/broken by mass bloodshed of any kind. Wars, genocide, blood magic rituals. Its all the same. 

Examples are the Brecilian Forest, and the Abanadoned Orphanage. Not everything is magics fault. 

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

No way I'd support this unless all mages are sent to some type of Circle of Magi School to study magic properly. With their families being allowed to visit or the mage allowed to visit his/her family. I do think their needs to be some type of Templar oversight, to hunt mages that go rogue into blood magic. Thedas will need to have Templars to fight cosmic forces when the Veil is torn

Hey guess what? Of course they would bloody teach mages how to study magic properly. Freakin APOSTATES teach other mages how to study magic properly. This doesn't even to be brought up. If this free mage state happened they're teachings would most likely function like regular schools. Go to classes during the day, then come home. 

No Free Mage State is gonna replicate the Circle exactly. The way the Circle works now is part of the problem. 

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
Wardens could also be used to help fight/hunt rogue mages who turn to blood magic even though Wardens need mages and the use of bloodmagic to fight darkspawn. I feel Wardens do a better job than templars. This would really come down to each Warden Commander and The First Warden's views.

So should the Templars and Wardens join forces?

No. Thats stupid, and makes no sense. Warden's don't care about apostates, or blood mages. The Grey Warden Order was created by Blood Mages. The only thing the Grey Wardens care about are Darkspawn. Its been stated multiple times that they don't really give a **** about anyone elses problems. 

Also you think the Mages in the Grey Wardens are gonna wanna help? Hell no, and seriously.. What makes you think Grey Wardens are more suited to hunting down Apostates? They have no magic resistance. This makes no sense. 

Its not gonna happen. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 28 novembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
The Grey Warden Order was created by Blood Mages.

Sauce?

Celene II
Incredibly smart people invented and built atomic weapons that killed
150,000 people. Should now all smart people be required to be "watched
over"

Is intent not relevant anymore? Motive?

Mages are people with access to power, thats it. It doesn't mean that they should be checked up on all the time.

Those incredibly smart people need the backing and resources of an entire country to create an atomic bomb. An atomic bomb that wouldbe guarded and watched over by that country.
An atomic bomb that would be detected (radiation). An atomic bomb that would need a delivery system.
Alos, scientists dont' go dr. Jekkil mr. Hide.
So comparing mages to scientists is redicolous.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...
The Grey Warden Order was created by Blood Mages.

Sauce?

Sauce!

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...
What anti-magic items? [/quote]

There's plenty of itemsin game with magic resistance.



[quote]
So ganging up on, and killing kids? [/quote]

It would work, wouldn't it?


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Also pooisoning or killing in the sleep works too.[/quote]

Because they would be able to sneak into a Magically protected stronghold to do such a thing right? Also I'm pretty sure a Mage would have a spell to cure poison. [/quote]

Contrary to popular belief, magic doesn't cure everything. And there are some REALLY potent poisons that kill you in seconds.
Also, if mages are to live with mundanes, they won't have magicly protected strongholds. I guess you invision some kind of magical alarms and such? So far I dont' recall seeing them in TheDas.


[quote]
My example was about how Mundanes could never beat them in a all out conflict/fair fight. But thanks for proving my point, and that Templars are nothing but weak cowards. [/qutoe]

Sure they can beat them. Zerg swarm.

And I haven't proven you anything.






[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mundanes have just as much resistance to possesion as mages have - none.
Except mundanes are practicly invisible to demons (and also uninteresting) and don't have a constant presence in the Fade.

A mundane being possesed requires extraoridnary circumstances, but it can happen.[/quote]

Nothing says that a Mage can't resist possession. Its all about willpower, and the average Mage has considerably more willpower than the average mundane. Mostly because their powers require it.
[/quote]

I didn't say they can't, I said they don't have any special protection.
Also, mages having more willpower? That's your conjecture and not proof. (and no, gameplay stats don't count as proof)

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:21 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Drakar123 wrote...

The Chantry would absolutely never permit such a thing.The reason mages are locked up in circle towers isn't beause they are a threat to the common people (the chantry doesn't care about them at all and the nobles even less) but because if they were free they would take over whatever country they were in and turn it into a mageocracy.

Proof?
Oh right, you got none.
I so love it when people use their oppinions on motivations of other people as facts.

[esper]

Mr.House wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Celene II wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

No. Do the words veil torn asunder mean anything to you?

Mages need to be watched over, but not the way the Chantry does it.

Incredibly smart people invented and built atomic weapons that killed 150,000 people. Should now all smart people be required to be "watched over"

Is intent not relevant anymore? Motive?

Mages are people with access to power, thats it. It doesn't mean that they should be checked up on all the time.

Do you know what will happen if the veil is torn asusder for good?

Also comparing what I said to WW2? Really? REALLY?

I doubt that the Veil could even be "torn asunder for good".

Free mages have existed for thousands of years long before the Chantry and Templars and even Tevinter. Has the Veil been "torn asunder for good" yet?

Even as Tevinter, a free mage state, has existed for over 2000 years, has the Veil been "torn asunder for good" yet?

Yjere are many places where the veil is thin or gone because of magic. Tevinter is also not a free mage state as it has the Black Chantry. Leavings mages with no one to watch them or police them would be a disaster.

The veil is not thin only because of magic, the veil is thin because of death. A violent death thins the veil.
Tevinter was a free mage state for a long time before Andraste, and the veil is not gone for good yet and Black Chantry or no, Tevinter still have the magisters which practize blood magic, the veil is not gone yet. If anything mages are needed to repair the veil. Mages and demons and spirits are the only one who can do that, I doubt you would want the demon's help, and the spirits mostly stay on their side of the veil. 

[Drakar123]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Drakar123 wrote...

The Chantry would absolutely never permit such a thing.The reason mages are locked up in circle towers isn't beause they are a threat to the common people (the chantry doesn't care about them at all and the nobles even less) but because if they were free they would take over whatever country they were in and turn it into a mageocracy.

Proof?
Oh right, you got none.
I so love it when people use their oppinions on motivations of other people as facts.

I was exaggerating when I said that but not by much.Yes there are some good people in the chantry who care about the plight of the commoners but the chantry wouldn't impose anywhere near the restrictions on mages they do right now if not for the power blood magic.Abominations are rare as it is and they would be far less common if mages were permitted to leave the tower and didn't have to resort to bargaining with demons to escape the templars.Far less parents would be trying to hide their childern this way as well.

What good free mages could do far outweighs the bad an occasional abomination could cause.Do you remember back in DAO when Loghain was selling elven slaves to tevinter ?The tevinter slavers were using a plague as a pretext for being there which is proof that mages can stop plagues which kill more people then all abominatins combined.That alone would be reason enough to let mages have their freedom.Of course free mages could easily topple a goverment in any country easily with mind control.Orlais is currently collapsing because Gaspard is trying to become emperor.Mages could create a far worse situation easily.Mages are either imprisoned or they are the ones in power.There can be no middle ground when it is so easy for them to take over a country.That is is why the Chantry locks them up.Because they want to remain in power.That is why they villify blood magic even when Andaste never said anything to explicitly condemn it.

[ussnorway]

No but I would support any political setup that gives a mage human (elf/ dwarf, whatever) rights... I don’t think most mages would want to live in a separate state that treated their children as second class citizens if they happen to be born non-magical i.e. normal. A magic tolerant kingdom that still payed some lip-service to the church would get my vote.

IMO The average Jo peasant would be proud to send their children away to a special mage school in order to learn to use their talents in defence of the king if the local magistrates/ clergy gave sermons about how magic is there to serve man instead of preaching phobias.

[S0DAP0P]

Change from within has been all I've expected from the series. In the first game it was my request that mages be free. They really should be a part of the states, and not subjects under the control of the Templars. It didn't end well in the second game.

I don't support a free state either. Blood Magic is enticing enough and allowing mages a free zone doesn't seem to be a smart option either. An independent power is what I'd like to see, answerable only to the King who could call on the Chantry and the Templars in addition to the Circle to defend the Kingdom. That's what I'd like to see.

To answer your question though, no. I'd stand against them.