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[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Drakar123 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Proof?
Oh right, you got none.
I so love it when people use their oppinions on motivations of other people as facts.

[/quote]

I was exaggerating when I said that but not by much.Yes there are some good people in the chantry who care about the plight of the commoners but the chantry wouldn't impose anywhere near the restrictions on mages they do right now if not for the power blood magic. Abominations are rare as it is and they would be far less common if mages were permitted to leave the tower and didn't have to resort to bargaining with demons to escape the templars.Far less parents would be trying to hide their childern this way as well. [/quote]

No.
Abominations are reare BECAUSE of the Circles.

Let the mages out and they won't be so rare anymore. Mages would have a whole range of new tempations and opporunities to abuse their power.


[quote]
What good free mages could do far outweighs the bad an occasional abomination could cause.[/qutoe]

No, it doesn't.
Healing people (which most mages don't to b.t.w., and which mages can do anyway even with Circles in place) doesn't counterbalance entire cities lost.


[quote]
Do you remember back in DAO when Loghain was selling elven slaves to tevinter ?The tevinter slavers were using a plague as a pretext for being there which is proof that mages can stop plagues which kill more people then all abominatins combined. That alone would be reason enough to let mages have their freedom. [/quote]

You mean a plague they themselves unleashed?
Again, I don't see why mages have to be free of the Circles to do that.

[Drakar123]

 It has already been stated that the amount of abominations in Tevinter is no different then the amount of abominations in any country where the chantry polices mages which proves that the majority of mages who become abominations do so either because thy are denied proper education due to their parents hiding them and not wanting them to go to the circle or because they want to escape the templars.In tevinter mages are free to do as they please and nearly all of them are blood mages.Danarius's mansion was full of demons he summoned to serve him.If countries where mages don't summon demons for the lulz have the same amount of abominations as those that do then clearly something is very wrong with the way mages in those countries are treated.The majority of mages in circles know that bargaining with demons is bad and what the consequences of doing so can be but they do it anyway out of desperation.If they weren't locked up in circles they wouldn't be anywhere near as desperate and would have far more to lose in the form of friends and family.Mages in circles avoid having bonds with each other since they know how dangerous it is for the templars to know they have something they can't lose.

And if you think the chantry would allow mages to go out and help people then you and I are thinking of a different chantry.Were you referring to the Imperial Chantry perhaps ?I can see that being possible with them.Where the orlesian chantry is concerned mages only leave the circles to heal people when the people in question are nobles and everything else has been tried already (Arl Eamon) and they always do so with a very large number of templars escorting them and keeping them at swordpoint at all times so they wouldn't try anything funny.There have been no instances of mages being allowed to go outside to heal the commoners out of good will because maker forbid if they did the commoners might actually start to think that mages are people too.They might also be able to escape and some peasants might be willing to harbor them.The risks are simply too great even when plagues are conscerned.The nobles would get healing yes but the peasansts ?Too risky.

[Drakar123]

It's no different then any other place with a circle.The only difference is that the templars are less corrupt and that allistair harbors apostates.Regular mages are still locked up and unable to own titles or lands.If it was they wouldn't have rebelled.Sure it's a plus that there aren't any Sir Alrik's or Meredith's but circles in general are not a very nice place what with being unable to meet our family,get married,have childern(legitimately) or wanting to do anything that involves you leaving the tower.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Drakar123 wrote...

 It has already been stated that the amount of abominations in Tevinter is no different then the amount of abominations in any country where the chantry polices mages which proves that the majority of mages who become abominations do so either because thy are denied proper education due to their parents hiding them and not wanting them to go to the circle or because they want to escape the templars.In tevinter mages are free to do as they please and nearly all of them are blood mages.

Stated by whom?

Also, Tevinter has circles. This has been confirmed by devs. Most mages in Tevinter are also in Circles.

The majority of mages in circles know that bargaining with demons is bad and what the consequences of doing so can be but they do it anyway out of desperation.If they weren't locked up in circles they wouldn't be anywhere near as desperate and would have far more to lose in the form of friends and family.Mages in circles avoid having bonds with each other since they know how dangerous it is for the templars to know they have something they can't lose.

Oh they would be just as "desperate" outside. Just for different reasons.

Where the orlesian chantry is concerned mages only leave the circles to heal people when the people in question are nobles and everything else has been tried already (Arl Eamon) and they always do so with a very large number of templars escorting them and keeping them at swordpoint at all times so they wouldn't try anything funny.

So?

There have been no instances of mages being allowed to go outside to heal the commoners out of good will because maker forbid if they did the commoners might actually start to think that mages are people too.They might also be able to escape and some peasants might be willing to harbor them.The risks are simply too great even when plagues are conscerned.The nobles would get healing yes but the peasansts ?Too risky.

We don't know. It's a simple as that.
You assume that in case of plague the Chantry doesn't allow mages to help. And yet you have nothing to base that on.
Even if we assume that Chantry is self-serving and evil (which we shouldn't), it is in it's best interest to keep the people alive.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Drakar123 wrote...

It's no different then any other place with a circle.The only difference is that the templars are less corrupt and that allistair harbors apostates.Regular mages are still locked up and unable to own titles or lands.If it was they wouldn't have rebelled.Sure it's a plus that there aren't any Sir Alrik's or Meredith's but circles in general are not a very nice place what with being unable to meet our family,get married,have childern(legitimately) or wanting to do anything that involves you leaving the tower.

Circles in general are very nice places.

Also, mages can marry. There is no rule forbidding that (as stated by Gaider). It's just that most choose not to.

[Drakar123]

You seem to think that I oppose the idea of circles.I do not and I am aware that Tevinter has a circle however tevinter mages are allowed to leave and do whatever else they want,something mages in other countries aren't capable of doing and they still have the same number of abominations as everyone else (this was said in a codex entry but I can't be bothered to dig it up now).

And even if mages are exposed to different temptations they would be far less likely to resort to demons then if they were locked up in a circle since it takes a really desperate person to summon a creature which is completely malevolent and expect things to turn out ok.There are many forms of magic which the chantry forbids because they would be make templars dealing with mages even more difficult and they could replace the need for demon summoning quite nicely.Never mind that demons can be controlled something circle mages are certainly not taught and magisters have proven possible(once again Danarius.There were a lot of demons in his mantion and they served him without him becoming an abomination).The fact remains free mages would become abominations far less often then mages who are imprisoned or at least equally if they actively practiced demon summoning like the magisters.

That aside let's say the chantry does use mages to cure plagues (unlikely).That is still but one of the many benefits mages can have to society.If mages were free they could help commoners imensely.They could accelarate the growth of crops with creation magic,build irrigation systems overnight,heal people,regorw lost limbs even,make it impossible for bandits to rob villages and so on.The benefits far outweigh the negatives of an occasional abomination.

[ImperatorMortis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sauce?

Its said here that a group of veterans in weisshaupt fotress in the anderfells(The west part of the Tevinter imperium) somehow discovered the process of The Joining. The Joining is basically a blood magic ritual. And I don't mean the "drink from the challace part".

If they were to discover it they would have had to have done magical experiments with you guessed it. Blood. Blood Mages creating the Grey Wardens just makes sense. 

[ImperatorMortis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

So ganging up on, and killing kids?

It would work, wouldn't it?

You disgust me. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sure they can beat them. Zerg swarm.

How would that help? Tons of mage spells can destroy whole villages. Yeah swarm at them. They'll just cast an earthquake to destroy their footing, then summon a ice storm right on them. Oh lets through a few Force Mages in there to REALLY **** their **** up. 

Its the equivalent of a large swarm of fire ants charging towards a guy with a flamethrower. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I didn't say they can't, I said they don't have any special protection.
Also, mages having more willpower? That's your conjecture and not proof. (and no, gameplay stats don't count as proof)

Its common sense. You need will, and intelligence to use magic well. Yeah its gameplay stats, but it makes sense as well. 

Why do you think Mages, even Apostate Mages seem to be so learned? 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 28 novembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Drakar123 wrote...

You seem to think that I oppose the idea of circles.I do not and I am aware that Tevinter has a circle however tevinter mages are allowed to leave and do whatever else they want,something mages in other countries aren't capable of doing and they still have the same number of abominations as everyone else (this was said in a codex entry but I can't be bothered to dig it up now).

Sauce.
Where does it say tevinter mages can go and do whatever they want?
And where does it say they have the same number of abominations?

And even if mages are exposed to different temptations they would be far less likely to resort to demons then if they were locked up in a circle since it takes a really desperate person to summon a creature which is completely malevolent and expect things to turn out ok.

No, not just desperate.
Stupid. Or unreasonable. Or really angry. Or drunk. Or high. Or depressed/suicidal.

Never mind that demons can be controlled something circle mages are certainly not taught and magisters have proven possible(once again Danarius.There were a lot of demons in his mantion and they served him without him becoming an abomination).

Controllign demons? That's what mages think. The arrogance and playing with fire is what dooms them.

The fact remains free mages would become abominations far less often then mages who are imprisoned or at least equally if they actively practiced demon summoning like the magisters.

No. There is nothing factual about that.

That aside let's say the chantry does use mages to cure plagues (unlikely).That is still but one of the many benefits mages can have to society.If mages were free they could help commoners imensely.They could accelarate the growth of crops with creation magic,build irrigation systems overnight,heal people,regorw lost limbs even,make it impossible for bandits to rob villages and so on.The benefits far outweigh the negatives of an occasional abomination.

Magic can't regrow lost limbs. It has limits. It wouldnt' make it impossible for bandits to rob villages.
And the benefits don't outweigh the negatives. Abominations and abusing mages FAR outweight minor healing.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 novembre 2012 - 11:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
Its said here that a group of veterans in weisshaupt fotress in the anderfells(The west part of the Tevinter imperium) somehow discovered the process of The Joining. The Joining is basically a blood magic ritual. And I don't mean the "drink from the challace part".

Veterans.
Where does it say "blood mages"?
And the joinign isn't blood magic. It can be SEEN as blood magic.

How would that help? Tons of mage spells can destroy whole villages.
Yeah swarm at them. They'll just cast an earthquake to destroy their
footing, then summon a ice storm right on them. Oh lets through a few
Force Mages in there to REALLY **** their **** up. 

Its the equivalent of a large swarm of fire ants charging towards a guy with a flamethrower.

And yet apparently it works.
Mages aren't gods (thankfully). Thay can be killed, they have been killed and they will be killed.

You disgust me.

And I pitty you.
I'm just telling you how things are. Don't blame me for the hold, harsh blow of reality.

Its common sense. You need will, and intelligence to use magic well. Yeah its gameplay stats, but it makes sense as well.

Nothing common about it.
Alas, there is no conenction between willpower and beign "learned".
I'll grant you that since mages are tempted by demons, they are more used and thus better prepared....usually.

But it all means little when they are beset by demons and face far bigger tempations then mundanes.

[ImperatorMortis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Veterans.
Where does it say "blood mages"?
And the joinign isn't blood magic. It can be SEEN as blood magic.

Oh really? Its been stated that you can't just drink the Archdemons blood to become a Warden. It has to be "magically prepared". So if you didn't get it the first time. 

Blood+Magic = Blood Magic. What did you think Blood Magic was, genius? Blood Magic can be used for more than controlling minds, and summoning demons. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And yet apparently it works.

Not all the time. The Templars fail whenever they have to go up against competent mages like Morrigan, or Malcom Hawke.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages aren't gods (thankfully). Thay can be killed, they have been killed and they will be killed.

They don't need to be Gods. Than can be killed, but the mundanes would never be able to whipe them out. Or fully control them. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And I pitty you.
I'm just telling you how things are. Don't blame me for the hold, harsh blow of reality.

"Harsh blow"? I'm a misanthropist for a reason. I know how the world works. I just didn't think you would actually have the nerve to suggest such/admit to thinking that hunting down kid mages was a good idea. 

You're not worth my time. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 28 novembre 2012 - 11:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
Oh really? Its been stated that you can't just drink the Archdemons blood to become a Warden. It has to be "magically prepared". So if you didn't get it the first time.

No, that is said for darkspawn blood with lower concetration of taint.

Blood+Magic = Blood Magic. What did you think Blood Magic was, genius?

Depends how you define it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And yet apparently it works.

Not all the time. The Templars fail whenever they have to go up against competent mages like Morrigan, or Malcom Hawke.

In an all-out war, there will be entire armies of templars and regular mundanes.

They don't need to be Gods. Than can be killed, but the mundanes would never be able to whipe them out. Or fully control them.

As long as they can lock them up OR reduce their numbers to insignificant numbers, who cares?

"Harsh blow"? I'm a misanthropist for a reason. I know how the world works. I just didn't think you would actually have the nerve to suggest such/admit to thinking that hunting down kid mages was a good idea.

If you belive in mage freedom then you dont' know how the world works.

And don't put words in my mouth. When did I ever say killing kids is a good idea?

You're not worth my time. 

Too bad. I find your little theories entertaining.

[ImperatorMortis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you belive in mage freedom then you dont' know how the world works. 

*Someone has an opinion thats not there own* *Claims that they don't know how the world works*

What kind of ****ty backwards ass logic is that? Thats like telling someone who doesn't agree with the American President that they're a Communist. 

Wait didn't I just say you weren't worth my time? I'm out. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 28 novembre 2012 - 12:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you belive in mage freedom then you dont' know how the world works. 

*Someone has an opinion thats not there own* *Claims that they don't know how the world works*

What kind of ****ty backwards ass logic is that? Thats like telling someone who doesn't agree with the American President that they're a Communist.

Simple logic.
If you belive that people will get behind impossilbe things, then  I can very well say that.


For an example. Let's say I come to you and say:

ME :"If we were to propose building a super-large Hadron Collider around the equator, it would be done. It is doable."

YOU: "It would cost quadrillions. Where would you get that kind of money? Especially given the financial situation.."

ME: "Well just increase taxes. The people will follow."

YOU: "What? No, they won't. And even if by some miracle they do, it will take decades to build it. Heck, a century at least!"

ME: "So? We'll round up the jobless people and let them build it. It will be faster!"

YOU: "That's high-tech lab equipment. You can't just let poeple off the street build it. And who will pay for them all?"

ME: "The poeple. And we will educate the workers. Their enthusiasm will not wane even after decades of construction. After all, science is good for them.."

etc, etc....


If you are facepalming at this point, then you know how I feel in these conversations.

[thibaut72]

As long as templars are incompetent, it's better that mages became free...

Templars never understand the Chant of light and follow their own rules which are not the same in all circles. They only stay and watch, torture mages for their pleisure (as Varrick said in the beginning of Act 3), and so on...

So, as long as mages don't try to make another Tevinter Empire, i can support them.

[Pheonix57]

Well... People walk around with traps, explosives, poisons, weapons, and attack animals-- unhindered. So maybe?

[Beerfish]

Celene II wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

No. Do the words veil torn asunder mean anything to you?

Mages need to be watched over, but not the way the Chantry does it.

Incredibly smart people invented and built atomic weapons that killed 150,000 people. Should now all smart people be required to be "watched over"

Is intent not relevant anymore? Motive?

Mages are people with access to power, thats it. It doesn't mean that they should be checked up on all the time.

Who says all mages are smart?  No real evidence to supoort a thought that people with magical abilites are smart.

Also if every nuclear physisist in the world had a chance to go crazy and build a bomb at any time the people of the world would be more than happy to support the notion that they must be watched carefully for the greater good.

[Huntress]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Drakar123 wrote...

You seem to think that I oppose the idea of circles.I do not and I am aware that Tevinter has a circle however tevinter mages are allowed to leave and do whatever else they want,something mages in other countries aren't capable of doing and they still have the same number of abominations as everyone else (this was said in a codex entry but I can't be bothered to dig it up now).

Sauce.
Where does it say tevinter mages can go and do whatever they want?
And where does it say they have the same number of abominations?

In Da2 .

Letter:

Dear Hawke,

Or is it now "Champion Hawke"? The story of how you handled the Arishok is very popular here. There are few things the Tevinters enjoy more than a tale of Qunari defeat!

To say the Imperium is a strange place would be a vast understatement. Men and women work magic in the street while their slaves look on. I watched my own master kill a rival magister in a duel just days ago. Sometimes I look around and think I understand the templars in Kirkwall.

My studies are going well. My dreams don't trouble me as much these days. I'm hopeful that, in time, I'll master myself. I just wanted to thank you. I owe you more than my life. I owe you my life and my future.

Feynriel

Modifié par Huntress, 28 novembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Huntress]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you belive in mage freedom then you dont' know how the world works. 

*Someone has an opinion thats not there own* *Claims that they don't know how the world works*

What kind of ****ty backwards ass logic is that? Thats like telling someone who doesn't agree with the American President that they're a Communist.

Simple logic.
If you belive that people will get behind impossilbe things, then  I can very well say that.


For an example. Let's say I come to you and say:

ME :"If we were to propose building a super-large Hadron Collider around the equator, it would be done. It is doable."

YOU: "It would cost quadrillions. Where would you get that kind of money? Especially given the financial situation.."

ME: "Well just increase taxes. The people will follow."

YOU: "What? No, they won't. And even if by some miracle they do, it will take decades to build it. Heck, a century at least!"

ME: "So? We'll round up the jobless people and let them build it. It will be faster!"

YOU: "That's high-tech lab equipment. You can't just let poeple off the street build it. And who will pay for them all?"

ME: "The poeple. And we will educate the workers. Their enthusiasm will not wane even after decades of construction. After all, science is good for them.."

etc, etc....


If you are facepalming at this point, then you know how I feel in these conversations.

Rofl..
Me: taxes are high and the plans for the super-large Hadron Collider haven't be made yet! on top of that the trillions we collected is disapearing at an alarming rate! where is it going to?
you: oh.. sorry! my friends and I like to waste it in greats talks about nothing in particular, you should come some times, drink and food all day .. and nights. The plans?.. err well.. that was the plan!

Modifié par Huntress, 28 novembre 2012 - 03:35 .

[Todd23]

Dalish
Tevinter
Fereldan (In my profile)
Three down. The rest of the world to go.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Huntress wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Drakar123 wrote...

You seem to think that I oppose the idea of circles.I do not and I am aware that Tevinter has a circle however tevinter mages are allowed to leave and do whatever else they want,something mages in other countries aren't capable of doing and they still have the same number of abominations as everyone else (this was said in a codex entry but I can't be bothered to dig it up now).

Sauce.
Where does it say tevinter mages can go and do whatever they want?
And where does it say they have the same number of abominations?

In Da2 .

Letter:

To say the Imperium is a strange place would be a vast understatement. Men and women work magic in the street while their slaves look on. I watched my own master kill a rival magister in a duel just days ago. Sometimes I look around and think I understand the templars in Kirkwall.

I'm sorry to tell you, but that doens't prove it.

Men and women working magic - to whom does it refer to? Magisters? Masters?
Only high-ranking mages and their servants get compelte freedom.

[Bail_Darilar]

Nope because the problems are still their regardless of whether a piece of land is recogised as a free state or not and who's to say that they won't become a new Tevinter?

[Todd23]

Bail_Darilar wrote...

Nope because the problems are still their regardless of whether a piece of land is recogised as a free state or not and who's to say that they won't become a new Tevinter?

Tevinter became that way because the mages were the greedy power hungry nobles.  It doesn't happen like this in the Dalish does it?  Mages can be policed propperly.  It doesn't have to be either one side lives in hell or the other.

[Bail_Darilar]

Todd23 wrote...

Bail_Darilar wrote...

Nope because the problems are still their regardless of whether a piece of land is recogised as a free state or not and who's to say that they won't become a new Tevinter?

Tevinter became that way because the mages were the greedy power hungry nobles.  It doesn't happen like this in the Dalish does it?  Mages can be policed propperly.  It doesn't have to be either one side lives in hell or the other.

Nope but the idea of being isolationists doesn't help either, the underlying problem still remains. Neither is there a way to dictate whether  foreign powers will have an influence on how the state if formed or who is going to rule/govern. Who's to say this person or group of people aren't power hungry or harbor their own prejusdices against non-mages? Amongst that theres the issue of land, if land is taken there are still going to be people who lose out. The dalish work because they are nomads meaning that they will take free land for a space of time then move with the other races begrudgingly accepting thei presence. Mages are also embedded in their culture have been accepted for centuries.