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[Huntress]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Drakar123 wrote...

You seem to think that I oppose the idea of circles.I do not and I am aware that Tevinter has a circle however tevinter mages are allowed to leave and do whatever else they want,something mages in other countries aren't capable of doing and they still have the same number of abominations as everyone else (this was said in a codex entry but I can't be bothered to dig it up now).

Sauce.
Where does it say tevinter mages can go and do whatever they want?
And where does it say they have the same number of abominations?

In Da2 .

Letter:

To say the Imperium is a strange place would be a vast understatement. Men and women work magic in the street while their slaves look on. I watched my own master kill a rival magister in a duel just days ago. Sometimes I look around and think I understand the templars in Kirkwall.

I'm sorry to tell you, but that doens't prove it.

Men and women working magic - to whom does it refer to? Magisters? Masters?
Only high-ranking mages and their servants get compelte freedom.

FIRST tell me please, who in DA is able to cast magic, second is only one of this races sexes able to cast magic or both sexes? 
the humanoinds in the game have female and males and they go by man's and women's yes even the dwarves.. pff can you believe that?

is not accure because? what? In you're mind cant be possible to find a place where the culture is different to the ones you have visited in previous game? Then we should remove all talks of the Qunari from the BSN!

(Everyone talks about paradise and how wonderful it is..yet none of them have been there or have any proof)

Exactly, ONLY high rank mages can walk and shoot lighting bolts at fools in Tevinter streets, the rest falls from servent or slave ranks.
Tevinter is ruled by powerful houses + blood-lines.

The warden has the option to duel-duel and let the fool go home or kill him  without any problems, why you show surprise of a place ruled by mages and that this mages duel using their magics?

Yes bold part : fenriel came from Kirkwall a place where even talking of mages could get you a beating by the templars, death if you aid one, so yeah he probably saw the other side of the coin.
Any way the fight were between rivals and only 1 should be the victor.
the other one?  food for the worms.

Modifié par Huntress, 28 novembre 2012 - 06:48 .

[Foolsfolly]

arcelonious wrote...

I'm personally not a fan of the magi isolating themselves from the rest of Thedas. In my opinion, keeping the magi and the rest of Thedas separated merely widens the gap between them, resulting in neither group understanding the other. I'm afraid that all the isolation will do is breed more resentment, and inevitably lead to marches/wars with each other.

I think the best hope for Thedas is for the mages to be integrated into society. In all honesty, I think that it is the Chantry and nobility that fears mages the most; the commoner doesn't seem to be as fearful of them (e.g., many non-mage people actually try to protect Anders because he is providing healing for the low-class citizens).

Obviously integration will be difficult, but I think that it is the best approach in the long run.

You're not the only one saying something similar in the thread and I'm mostly using you as a focus for this post...

But the idea that mage and non-mage will ever hold hands together all happily together as people is ridiclous to me. There's nothing in two games, an expansion, and many DLC that leads me to suspect that mages and non-mages can ever live together as equals.

Because they're not equals.

Mages have powers so beyond mere mortals that they may as well be demi-gods. They're people... but they're also People of Mass Destruction. You'll never have your commoners trusting people who can call down hellfire and brimstone. Even if they could also water their crops and heal their injuries.

There's too much of a rift between them.

My opinion remains the same. I'd support a mage state but I have little faith in its continued existence.

So why support them? Because there's no hope of co-existence. And while a mage state seperate from Tevinter has little chance to sustain itself.. it's a better chance than they have of co-existing.

In comic book terms I want the mages to have their own Genosha after Magneto took it over.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 28 novembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Huntress wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm sorry to tell you, but that doens't prove it.

Men and women working magic - to whom does it refer to? Magisters? Masters?
Only high-ranking mages and their servants get compelte freedom.

FIRST tell me please, who in DA is able to cast magic, second is only one of this races sexes able to cast magic or both sexes? 
the humanoinds in the game have female and males and they go by man's and women's yes even the dwarves.. pff can you believe that?

is not accure because? what? In you're mind cant be possible to find a place where the culture is different to the ones you have visited in previous game? Then we should remove all talks of the Qunari from the BSN!

(Everyone talks about paradise and how wonderful it is..yet none of them have been there or have any proof)

Exactly, ONLY high rank mages can walk and shoot lighting bolts at fools in Tevinter streets, the rest falls from servent or slave ranks.
Tevinter is ruled by powerful houses + blood-lines.

What? I don't understand your objection....actually I don't undersatand half of your post. Qunari? Whaaa?

The line NEVER specified how many mages walk around in tevinter.
It doesn't say all.

[Sharn01]

Beerfish wrote...

Celene II wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

No. Do the words veil torn asunder mean anything to you?

Mages need to be watched over, but not the way the Chantry does it.

Incredibly smart people invented and built atomic weapons that killed 150,000 people. Should now all smart people be required to be "watched over"

Is intent not relevant anymore? Motive?

Mages are people with access to power, thats it. It doesn't mean that they should be checked up on all the time.

Who says all mages are smart?  No real evidence to supoort a thought that people with magical abilites are smart.

Also if every nuclear physisist in the world had a chance to go crazy and build a bomb at any time the people of the world would be more than happy to support the notion that they must be watched carefully for the greater good.

Actually, every nuclear physicist does have a chance to go crazy and build a bomb.  Every human can go crazy at any time, some are statistically more likely then others to do so based on genetics, and the process is almost always slow, but the potential exists within everyone.

[Todd23]

[Sexist comment removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 29 novembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[caradoc2000]

We don't need a new one. There already is a Free Mage State - it is called Tevinter.

[Iosev]

Foolsfolly wrote...

You're not the only one saying something similar in the thread and I'm mostly using you as a focus for this post...

But the idea that mage and non-mage will ever hold hands together all happily together as people is ridiclous to me. There's nothing in two games, an expansion, and many DLC that leads me to suspect that mages and non-mages can ever live together as equals.

Because they're not equals.

Mages have powers so beyond mere mortals that they may as well be demi-gods. They're people... but they're also People of Mass Destruction. You'll never have your commoners trusting people who can call down hellfire and brimstone. Even if they could also water their crops and heal their injuries.

There's too much of a rift between them.

My opinion remains the same. I'd support a mage state but I have little faith in its continued existence.

So why support them? Because there's no hope of co-existence. And while a mage state seperate from Tevinter has little chance to sustain itself.. it's a better chance than they have of co-existing.

In comic book terms I want the mages to have their own Genosha after Magneto took it over.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that mages and non-mages need to metaphorically "hold hands" with each other.  What I am saying is that I believe that mages and non-mages need to strive for more tolerance between each other.  As long as some normal people continue to give birth to mages (as well as mages sometimes giving birth to normal children), I don't think you can ever truly seperate mages and non-mages, which is partly why I don't think that a seperate mage state could ever work.

Don't get me wrong, while the path to tolerance will be extremely difficult and will never work perfectly, I can't help but think that an isolate mage state will ensure that there will be no toleration between the groups. 

Modifié par arcelonious, 29 novembre 2012 - 12:27 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

It would be very hard to implement.

First, how the leader is selected would be critical. You do NOT want power plays when the players are capable of conjuring fireballs and raising the dead, as Tevinter shows. A Republic with laws regarding offensive use of magic is pretty much the system I foresee, else the State could tear itself apart in short order. Because let,s face it, when you have a State with that much power at the fingertips of everybody, you need to impose laws. Last thing you want is two guys settling their differences by encasing half the village in ice or something.

That ties to the second point, education for mages. The option for mages to either educate their own children or a College of sorts. Teach basic stuff; demons are bad, setting your neighboot or fire is naughty, Lyrium is important yet dangerous, ect.

Tying in the third point, Lyrium. It's currently controlled by the Chantry. The Mage state will need to secure a very ample supply route, it's pretty much as vital as food for them. That means deals with dwarves.

Tying into the fourth point (yes I'm that good), rock-solid diplomacy. The nations of Thedas will probably not appreciate a State manned by incredibly power people. Tensions are inevitable, and if not swiftly defused, well, back to mage on mundane violence with you.

Tying into the fifth point, where? In the real world, the creation of Israel, or careless colonialism has created many, many conflicts to this day. I don't know if the entire known landmass of Thedas is settled, but you need to have your State somewhere. Preferably somewhere nice, with room for cities and lands for crops. Nobody wants to settle in a tundra and fight off Chasind all day long.

That's the major hurdles I can think of right now. Of course, the Chantry and Templars will somehow have to either agree or, well, be rendered a non-issue, else there's going to be an immediate war.

Doable? Sure. Easy? Not at all. Would I support it? Only if the above points are taken into account. We really don't need Tevinter 2.0.

[ImperatorMortis]

Foolsfolly wrote...

In comic book terms I want the mages to have their own Genosha after Magneto took it over.

I would love if Mages had their own "Genosha". Man Magneto is awesome. 

[TEWR]

Huntress wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Sauce.
Where does it say tevinter mages can go and do whatever they want?
And where does it say they have the same number of abominations?

Letter:

To say the Imperium is a strange place would be a vast understatement. Men and women work magic in the street while their slaves look on. I watched my own master kill a rival magister in a duel just days ago. Sometimes I look around and think I understand the templars in Kirkwall.

My studies are going well. My dreams don't trouble me as much these days. I'm hopeful that, in time, I'll master myself. I just wanted to thank you. I owe you more than my life. I owe you my life and my future.

Feynriel

Well, that only says that Magisters can do that. Magisters work magic while their slaves just look on and Fenris notes that the Magisters are the law. So we know that the Magisters can do whatever they want. However, one shouldn't be under the assumption that all Mages can freely work their magic, however possible that might be.

All Magisters are Mages, but not all Mages are Magisters. 

[The Elder King]

I'd say it's not possible, in terms of number, to make a state for mage-only. They could make a city-state, like Kirkwall or Starkhaven, but not a state like Nevarra, Antiva, Orlais, etc.

[Drakar123]

True such a thing does not seem plausable (especially because even if a country consisted only of mages,eventually non mage childern would be born and they would be treated as second class citizens) but there is always the tevinter model where the mages have power over the commoners.I have already discussed mageocracy as a system of goverment in another thread in great detail and we reached a general consensus that a such a system would be far superior to any currently found on thedas and if properly done even better then any system found in our world.

Of course the chantry would never allow another tevinter imperium because it is far too easy for the mages to conquer thedas if left alone.They could just mind control nobles in every country and have them destroy those countries via civil war and then come and take their lands once the army is too depleted to fight back.

The reason tevinter doesn't rule all of thedas today is mostly because of plot induced stupidity...It's also why we don't see apostates mind controlling kings and rulling countries from the shaodws even if it would be extremelly easy to do so.Never mind that the whole Kirkwall mess could have been avoided if orsino mind controlled meredith into giving the mages far more freedom.The mages could have even siezed power in kirkwal if Orsino had simply meet with the viscount and used blood magic to make the viscount appoint him as his advisor.Most mages however seem to use blood magic to summon demons and become abominations instead of doing the smart thing and mind controlling the templars who are trying to kill them.Of course if they did that then there would have been no mage-templar war and the circles wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as they did.They would have failed the very first time they were tried actually.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Drakar123 wrote...
True such a thing does not seem plausable (especially because even if a country consisted only of mages,eventually non mage childern would be born and they would be treated as second class citizens) but there is always the tevinter model where the mages have power over the commoners.I have already discussed mageocracy as a system of goverment in another thread in great detail and we reached a general consensus that a such a system would be far superior to any currently found on thedas and if properly done even better then any system found in our world.

Let me guess? The thread was by mage-supporeters, for mage-supporters nad the concencus was amde by mage-supporters?

Mageocracy a superior system?
HA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAa.....*gasp* .. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m719t5Hj9N1qkidce.png

[Drakar123]

Since I can't be bothered to write all of that again here is a link http://social.biowar.../index/15052285

If you still disagree after reading it fine but I would appreicate it if you gave some thought to the arguments I made.

[The Elder King]

Drakar123 wrote...

True such a thing does not seem plausable (especially because even if a country consisted only of mages,eventually non mage childern would be born and they would be treated as second class citizens) but there is always the tevinter model where the mages have power over the commoners.I have already discussed mageocracy as a system of goverment in another thread in great detail and we reached a general consensus that a such a system would be far superior to any currently found on thedas and if properly done even better then any system found in our world.

.

If you reached a general consensus, I doubt that pro-templars, pro-Chantry or neutral people were present in the thread. From what I read in this forum, not even all pro-mages want a a magocracy.
To said that it'd be better than any system in out world is impossible. Even if you created a magocracy with similar values and rights that are present in our world, the ruling class would be formed exclusively by mages. This is against the right of equality, and is as dumb as any supremacist theory.
A lot of system proposed by people in the forums could be better than the systema in Thedas, as I can say that I can easily propose a better system than the ones present in our Middle Age. Their societies and systems arent (weren't in Middle Age) That good. Saying that a magocracy will be better than the current Thedosian systems isn't necessary a praise, since it could be better than those systems but still a bad system.
Regardless, I think that the magocracy system is bad. Mages aren't necessarily better rulers than other people, and having the ruling class exclusively composed by magic is as bad having a ruling class composed exclusively by nobles (which doesn't mean that a magocracy couldn't be formed, considered the level of evolution in Thedas, but it'll be as bas as any other system that limits the option to rule to a single class).
And if we have to judge the magocracy system from the experience from the only other magocracy we have enough detail (we don't know if the elves kingdoms were ruled by mages only), a magocracy would be even worse than the systems present in Thedas.
I'm not saying that a magocracy would necessarily going to be a new Tevinter, but I wouldn't risk the lives of hundreds of thousands of people with a new magocracy. I'll always be against this. If the mages in DA3 will want to have a new magocracy, I'll be against them 100%. Which, considering that the templars's goal is likely to be the annihilation of mages, will lead me to either not complete the game with my canon playthrough (and creating a new PC which I'll roleplay in a different manner) or hoping that there'll be a third path.

[mousestalker]

How could anyone ethically support a Free Mage State? Forbidding mages to charge for their services seems awfully coercive.

[Ninja Stan]

Inappropriate and off-topic discussion removed. Stay on topic, please.

[TCBC_Freak]

Full honesty, I didn't read all the posts, but I felt like I had to voice my thoughts on this. At first I thought maybe. But now, No. And neither would the Qunari.

No country in the main land would give up land willingly to form this mage state; and what budding nation wants to have a bitter hatred right from day one for "stealing" land from someone else? This leads to big problem, you're asking for a war early on and this "free mage state" would face everyone because I'd bet my bottom dollar that the other mundane nations would rally with the "victim of national theft." (this was brought up in some of the other posts I know)

So, what, they find an island or island chain and set up there... how long till the Qun go in to destroy them? The Qun allows them to have a cease fire with the people of Theodus because they can't beat them united, but a lone mage state? The Qun is very clear, the Sarabas must be controled or killed right? And what mundane nation would rise to help the mages (who they don't trust and fear) fight the Qunari (who they fear and don't trust)? They rather the two fight it out I'm sure and since even with mages backing the full might of almost every nation they only fought to a stalemate... you can see why I bring the Qunari up, the part of any mage topic that seems to be forgotten. A mage state is a pipe dream.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Drakar123 wrote...

True such a thing does not seem plausable (especially because even if a country consisted only of mages,eventually non mage childern would be born and they would be treated as second class citizens) but there is always the tevinter model where the mages have power over the commoners.I have already discussed mageocracy as a system of goverment in another thread in great detail and we reached a general consensus that a such a system would be far superior to any currently found on thedas and if properly done even better then any system found in our world.

Of course the chantry would never allow another tevinter imperium because it is far too easy for the mages to conquer thedas if left alone.They could just mind control nobles in every country and have them destroy those countries via civil war and then come and take their lands once the army is too depleted to fight back.

The reason tevinter doesn't rule all of thedas today is mostly because of plot induced stupidity...It's also why we don't see apostates mind controlling kings and rulling countries from the shaodws even if it would be extremelly easy to do so.Never mind that the whole Kirkwall mess could have been avoided if orsino mind controlled meredith into giving the mages far more freedom.The mages could have even siezed power in kirkwal if Orsino had simply meet with the viscount and used blood magic to make the viscount appoint him as his advisor.Most mages however seem to use blood magic to summon demons and become abominations instead of doing the smart thing and mind controlling the templars who are trying to kill them.Of course if they did that then there would have been no mage-templar war and the circles wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as they did.They would have failed the very first time they were tried actually.

I'm sorry what? Magocracy superior to other forms of governemnet?? At least in aristocracy the commoner can still dream of becoming a noble, in a magocracy, not even the dreams are left. Magocracy is the place civilization goes to die...

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm sorry what? Magocracy superior to other forms of governemnet?? At least in aristocracy the commoner can still dream of becoming a noble, in a magocracy, not even the dreams are left. Magocracy is the place civilization goes to die...

QFT.

[Todd23]

StreetMagic wrote...

Mage state sounds unappealing personally.

But then, I'd probably consider myself an "Isolationist" among the Circle factions, if I was involved. I hate being bothered by anyone really.. mage or not. Morrigan and Flemeth lead a cool life, shack and all.

I'm a Libertarian.  Which is cool because that's also the political party I belong to in real life.

[Herr Uhl]

Todd23 wrote...

I'm a Libertarian.  Which is cool because that's also the political party I belong to in real life.

Good for you?