298 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

I'm not talking about just giving the Dalish a token territory which they'll somehow ending losing or making an elf a bann/arl of a single city.

I say that the next game should have an option to indefinately improve the lives of City Elves in all of Thedas.

A huge deal is made about mage freedom when the lot of the city elves are honestly worse off and for a much longer period of time.  It's so bad that even the dalish haven't fully regained their culture as a result of Tevinter and Chantry oppression, subjegation and forced conversion of many elves at the cost of their way of life.

I mean...the Chantry pretty much encourages and endorses the discrimination and oppression of elves in Thedas. If you're Dalish then you're hunted as a heathen criminal and if you're a City elf then you can't have a decent job, live your life in poverty and misery, can't buy a weapon to so much as defend yourself even if you saved up money and justice pretty much laughs in your face and then kicks you aside without so much as a backward's glance.

What if DA3 introduces a situation that could turn this around.  Maybe the elves in Orlais stage a rebellion while the country is in the middle of a national civil war and the Mage-Templar War.  One of your companions could even be a member of this rebellion and ask for your help.  

Let's say that an elven blood mage discovers how to restrengthen elven blood so that they'll eventually regain the indefinate lifespan of pre-slavery elves, but doing so will require the sacrifice of an entire barracks filled with templars due to the lyrium in their blood.

Or...the rebellion is brought to the Divine's attention and with your persuasion (Polite or forceful), the Divine can decree full rights to elves in all nations, form a peace treaty with the dalish and/or return the Dales in exchange for help in the Orlesian Civil War or the Mages-Templars Conflict.

Sure, racism would still be around, but the de jure portion would be absent.  Elves could form self-sufficient communities that can contribute to trade, boost military numbers by enlisting into the army, and so on.

It just feels strange to fight for mage freedom and completely overlook elves.

[nightscrawl]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

It just feels strange to fight for mage freedom and completely overlook elves.

Something the templars and mages can work together on: overturning the city elf rebellion!


I take your point though and have thought something similar. While you can affect (minor) change in the alienage in DAO, I found it unfortunate that we couldn't really do anything for them in DA2. In fact, the visible scope of Kirkwall's alienage was much smaller than I felt it should have been, especialy compared with Denerim's.

[Plaintiff]

As much as I would like to fix all of the social injustices in Thedas, that would a) make future installments of the series pretty boring, be completely unrealistic and c) be simply infeasible in a mechanical sense, since the save-import function necessitates a lack of "world-changing" choices, and this would be such a choice.

[Gyrefalcon]

nightscrawl wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

It just feels strange to fight for mage freedom and completely overlook elves.

Something the templars and mages can work together on: overturning the city elf rebellion!


I take your point though and have thought something similar. While you can affect (minor) change in the alienage in DAO, I found it unfortunate that we couldn't really do anything for them in DA2. In fact, the visible scope of Kirkwall's alienage was much smaller than I felt it should have been, especialy compared with Denerim's.

I am actually hoping DA3:  Inquisition will transition into the Elven rebellion for DA4.  (And please, oh please, let us be able to play elves again in the next one!)

[GipsyDangeresque]

My Warden approves of this topic, +15.


You have also initiated romance with me, whether you like it or not.

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

As much as I would like to fix all of the social injustices in Thedas, that would a) make future installments of the series pretty boring, be completely unrealistic and c) be simply infeasible in a mechanical sense, since the save-import function necessitates a lack of "world-changing" choices, and this would be such a choice.

It doesn't have to be a "choice" though... ;D. They've already shown that they are willing to have set outcomes like starting a mage/templar war regardless of your choice at the end of DA2. Perhaps in a future DA game (certainly not DA3) they will focus more on the elves. Only time will tell.

I'm not too into the elves in Dragon Age, and part of the reason is because of the tiresome (understandable though it may me) attitude of the Dalish. I do feel bad for the city elves though, and annoyed that the attitude of the general population (of humans) is disdain and general acceptance because "that's the way it's always been." If that kind of thinking prevailed, we would still have separate drinking fountains, lunch counters, and bathrooms in the USA.

The reason I even responded to this thread was because of the OP's line "It just feels strange to fight for mage freedom and completely overlook elves." This really resonated with me. There are pages and pages of threads here on the BSN of people arguing back and forth over mages, but hardly any on elves. I wonder why one injustice** has so much more weight than another. I don't feel that you have to be a fan of the DA elven race to see that.


** As some people perceive it, do NOT bring mage issues into this thread, please.

[Liamv2]

Atemeus wrote...

My Warden approves of this topic, +15.


You have also initiated romance with me, whether you like it or not.

That sounds about right

[Drakar123]

Hopefully sometime in the future the elves will have their own country again.Doesn't look like that will happen anytime soon though.Really the only way for them to get back on their feet is if some ancient elves are discovered to still be alive and awoken from uthenera.An ancient elven king or powerful mage perhaps could unite the dalish and give them their own country.Given what we know of ancient elven magic it seems to be far superior to what the mages of today have and should the elves rediscover it then they might even be able to conquer all of thedas.Of course all of this becomes impossible if no ancient elves remain.Anyway am I the only one who thinks an ancient uthenera elf would make an excellent companion ?

[Plaintiff]

nightscrawl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

As much as I would like to fix all of the social injustices in Thedas, that would a) make future installments of the series pretty boring, be completely unrealistic and c) be simply infeasible in a mechanical sense, since the save-import function necessitates a lack of "world-changing" choices, and this would be such a choice.

It doesn't have to be a "choice" though... ;D. They've already shown that they are willing to have set outcomes like starting a mage/templar war regardless of your choice at the end of DA2. Perhaps in a future DA game (certainly not DA3) they will focus more on the elves. Only time will tell.

I'm not too into the elves in Dragon Age, and part of the reason is because of the tiresome (understandable though it may me) attitude of the Dalish. I do feel bad for the city elves though, and annoyed that the attitude of the general population (of humans) is disdain and general acceptance because "that's the way it's always been." If that kind of thinking prevailed, we would still have separate drinking fountains, lunch counters, and bathrooms in the USA.

The reason I even responded to this thread was because of the OP's line "It just feels strange to fight for mage freedom and completely overlook elves." This really resonated with me. There are pages and pages of threads here on the BSN of people arguing back and forth over mages, but hardly any on elves. I wonder why one injustice** has so much more weight than another. I don't feel that you have to be a fan of the DA elven race to see that.


** As some people perceive it, do NOT bring mage issues into this thread, please.

I think the elf issue is less interesting to most people because it's more clear-cut. There have been discussions on Elven oppression,  but they don't last long because you're not going to find anybody willing to argue that their oppression is morally right or somehow necessary.

Without getting into details, because that's not the topic of this thread, both sides of the mage conflict have at least one good point each. As you yourself said, some people find the mage situation unjust, but others don't.

When it comes to the elf situation, or even the caste system of the dwarves, everyone simply agrees that these are terrible things.

[Xilizhra]

I think the elf issue is less interesting to most people because it's more clear-cut. There have been discussions on Elven oppression, but they don't last long because you're not going to find anybody willing to argue that their oppression is morally right or somehow necessary.

Yes you are. Certainly you'll find several people who believe the elves should just continue to bend over and take it.
However, we're talking about mage freedom more than elf freedom because the mages have enough individual power to actually win theirs; it'll be far trickier for elves. Also, while the Divine declaration is nice, the Divine doesn't own elves like she does mages, so I doubt she would actually have that power.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Why would you? Why would anybody bother with that, ever??? If you are human, you are raised by Chantry, if you are not - you have no say in it. So giving this option makes absolutely no sense. Even if you sympathise with them, you would never gave them your own land.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Sure, just take it from those scumbag humans.

[Xilizhra]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Why would you? Why would anybody bother with that, ever??? If you are human, you are raised by Chantry, if you are not - you have no say in it. So giving this option makes absolutely no sense. Even if you sympathise with them, you would never gave them your own land.

Not all humans are raised by the Chantry. And it's entirely possible that you have more land than you really need to keep.

[upsettingshorts]

Plaintiff wrote...

As much as I would like to fix all of the social injustices in Thedas, that would a) make future installments of the series pretty boring, be completely unrealistic and c) be simply infeasible in a mechanical sense, since the save-import function necessitates a lack of "world-changing" choices, and this would be such a choice.

Yeah, I'd love to see them try to support a decision that branched over the subject of DALISH FREEDOM without setting the next game in a completely seperate continent. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, it doesn't have to be based on a choice; it could be a world-changing event that happens whether you like it or not, like mage freedom will be.

[upsettingshorts]

The thread did say "option."

If the writers want to make the Dalish' lives better regardless than that's truly their prerogative.

[General User]

What "rights" do elves lack? Who else has these "rights"?

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...

What "rights" do elves lack? Who else has these "rights"?

The right to not be crammed in a box like battery hens, for one.

The right to earn a title, or have their half-elven child inherit a title if their father is of nobility. Heck, the right to marry a human for that matter, and conversely, a human who loves an elf should be able to marry them.

[Herr Uhl]

Plaintiff wrote...

Heck, the right to marry a human for that matter, and conversely, a human who loves an elf should be able to marry them.

I thought they had the right to marry humans. Soris does at least.

[Plaintiff]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Heck, the right to marry a human for that matter, and conversely, a human who loves an elf should be able to marry them.

I thought they had the right to marry humans. Soris does at least. I don't remember Soris.

Do they? Fair enough then.

Still even if they don't lack any specific "rights", they are clearly still viewed as separate from and inferior to humans. To pretend otherwise is dense, and it's an attitude needs to change.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:44 .

[JWvonGoethe]

Certainly the option of trying to stop racism against the elves would be welcome, though I think that, ultimately, failure would be the only satisfying outcome for this. If a parallel can be drawn between the plight of the elves and real-life racism, then a human protagonist stepping in and kindly fixing all of the elves' problems for them might come across as more than a little patronising and insulting to black civil rights activists in the real world. I think it would be more meaningful to see an elf, rather than a human, act as the Thedan equivalent of Martin Luther King.

Edit - although were a human protagonist to unite with such an elven Martin Luther King, and help combat racism alongside them, that could be more appropriate.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...

What "rights" do elves lack? Who else has these "rights"?

The right to not be crammed in a box like battery hens, for one.

Residing in an alienage is not mandatory.   Many elves don't live there.  Nor are restrictions on movement and limited choice of where to reside particulary uncommon in many parts of Thedas

The right to earn a title,

Titles are not rights, they are privilages and rewards.  Who gets so honored and when is entirely the perogative of the relevant lord or Sovereign.

or have their half-elven child inherit a title if their father is of nobility.

Since "half-elves" are human, I don't see the problem.  Neither concealing the exact parentage of a given lordling nor side-stepping siblings who would otherwise be further up the food chain are exactly new problems for the nobility nor are they unique to "half-elves".

Heck, the right to marry a human for that matter, and conversely, a human who loves an elf should be able to marry them.

Here you might have a point, but far from an unqualified one.  After all, elves and humans can get married.  Now , there might be consequences for choosing to do that (wealthy human parents might disinherit their children, Dalish parents might just kill the both of them, society in general might not recognize the union as valid, etc.) but humans and elves can still get married.

Modifié par General User, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:56 .

[Plaintiff]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Certainly the option of trying to stop racism against the elves would be welcome, though I think that, ultimately, failure would be the only satisfying outcome for this. If a parallel can be drawn between the plight of the elves and real-life racism, then a human protagonist stepping in and kindly fixing all of the elves' problems for them might come across as more than a little patronising and insulting to black civil rights activists in the real world. I think it would be more meaningful to see an elf, rather than a human, act as the Thedan equivalent of Martin Luther King.

Well white people did play a part in civil rights activism. For a minority action to be successful, it ultimately needs to sway the majority over to its side. A human protagonist could assist the elven rebellion for moral or selfish personal reasons, and still not be a major player or figurehead of it.

In Red Dead Redemption, John Marston fights on both sides of a political conflict in Mexico, because he wants information on his targets. He ultimately helps the rebels to win victory, but his contribution is barely rewarded and receives no public acknowledgement at all.

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...
Titles are not rights, they are privilages and rewards.  Who gets so honored and when is entirely the perogative of the relevant lord or Sovereign.

Except that legally, in the world of Thedas, no elf can earn/hold one, and nor can a half-elf. When a City Elf Warden or Shianni is made Bann of the Denerim Alienage at the end of Origins, it's the first time such a thing has happened virtually ever, with the possible exception of Tevinter, and it's a pretty damn big deal.

Since "half-elves" are human, I don't see the problem.  Neither concealing the exact parentage of a given lordling nor side-stepping siblings who would otherwise be further up the food chain are exactly new problems for the nobility nor are they unique to "half-elves".

The 'problem' is that the law forbids it, the same way that girl children once could not inherit titles or land, and thus the half-elves have an extra disadvantage that a full-blooded human does not.

Here you might have a point, but far from an unqualified one.  After all, elves and humans can get married.  Now , there might be consequences for choosing to do that (wealthy human parents might disinherit their children, Dalish parents might just kill the both of them, society in general might not recognize the union as valid, etc.) but humans and elves can still get married.

Society/law not recognising the union is the entire problem. In the real world, gay couples can hold hands and say some nice words and consider themselves "married", but nobody is debating the right to perform a private spiritual ceremony. What the gay community wants is the legal recognition of their relationship as 'valid', and the associated rights and benefits. And that's what elf/human couples in Thedas should want too, assuming legal recognition of marriage comes with any benefits in Thedas.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[Herr Uhl]

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...
Titles are not rights, they are privilages and rewards.  Who gets so honored and when is entirely the perogative of the relevant lord or Sovereign.

Except that legally, in the world of Thedas, no elf can earn/hold one, and nor can a half-elf. When a City Elf Warden or Shianni is made Bann of the Denerim Alienage at the end of Origins, it's the first time such a thing has happened virtually ever, with the possible exception of Tevinter, and it's a pretty damn big deal.

Is there a law prohibiting it, or is it just something that hasn't happened? The US president has never been female, but that doesn't mean that there is a law against it.