298 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ages
Read the "Glory Age" section.

[TEWR]

Fair enough.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Even in today's era, they call Rajmael the general of the Elven forces a heathen that recanted and turned to Andrastianism, when we know for a fact that what he truly did was hurl his axe The Veshialle at his enemies before committing suicide -- from the item description, which is undeniable lore.

Their twisting facts to support their own story. They're not so nice as you make them out to be.

Those could be different Rajmaels. The one mentioned in the Chant sounds like he was converted personally by Andraste, and it would seem odd that the one non-Andraste era and pre-Andraste era part of the Chant that we've heard thus far would be some 200 years in the future. Moreover, the way the origination of the Chant of Light is described implies that they comprise the story of Andraste and her teachings, not future histories.

[TEWR]

Those could be different Rajmaels. The one mentioned in the Chant sounds like he was converted personally by Andraste, and it would seem odd that the one non-Andraste era and pre-Andraste era part of the Chant that we've heard thus far would be some 200 years in the future. Moreover, the way the origination of the Chant of Light is described implies that they comprise the story of Andraste and her teachings, not future histories.

Possible and logical, but seeing as how we've only heard of the one Rajmael I'm erring on the side of "Chantry twisting the facts regarding the Rajmael we know of" until told of another Rajmael existing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 décembre 2012 - 05:58 .

[Eber]

Clint Eastwood's take on the dalish situation.

Modifié par Eber, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:18 .

[thats1evildude]

 You want to improve the lives of the elves? Stop playing Dragon Age. 

[NasreddinHodja]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

NasreddinHodja wrote...

Andraste's Flaming Bosoms!

Why are people seem to be so fixated in what happened in the past? "Humans tried to stamp out our religion, we much march against them!" "Elves sacked our cities! We much Exalt-march against them!" The lore documents in Dragon Age is designed to where it's always from a certain point of view. Just like real life documents, they need to be supported with archaeological evidence to be objectively true. And I don't see anything in-game that supports one kind of truth from the other, at least so far. So in that sense, let's just agree to disagree about the past.

What we can agree, however, is that the elves have sucky lives in the present, and that we'd like to do something about it. Part of the reason to this is Dalish bigotry, to be sure, but the current human social structure is to blame as well. The question is, within the framework of the present societies of Thedas, what should be done about it?

Mmmm... bosoms...

City Elves need to rally together (civilly) and try to branch out of the alienages and not be so closed off. Return to alienages for cultural gatherings, but be out in the market with humans, keep them constantly present in everyday life of the city. Try to enter into trade, have elves support elf business, pool resources and stay in the open as much as possible. When enough power is gained, then can establish better towns to live.

The Dalish need better PR. They could do more trade with local towns, maybe even collect bounties for local lords or even help with driving bandits out of areas so that local peasants would be more welcoming with their presence. They can still roam around if they wish, but this way they could eventually be seen as extra security to an area rather than a danger to the human peasants. Trade would need to be established first, have dialogue, improve relations, then can do the bounties/bandits thing. Biggest issue would be the dalish need to get over their segregation policies (little to no contact with humans), they do need to establish dialogue, maybe with an established emissary for each clan. Also, the next issue are the fanatical local lords and chantries, best thing to do is avoid the areas that have them or get on the good side of the local lords so the local chantry can be ignored.

just some quick thoughts. I don't think any sweeping, radical change would honestly help them, they first need to reflect on how they see the world, with city elves being too depressed/uninspired and dalish being too antagonistic.

Yay!  A real response!  Thank  you!

These are all good starts, but I don't believe that a purely elven-initiated movement will be enough.  We have seen this historically.  Once the supposed-poor-minority begin rising up, no matter how peaceful or within the system they do so, there will always be a backlash movement against them.  Take the Anti-Yellow movement in Australia, or the current revival of white protectionism in the US for example.  We don't really think about it, but most anti-racism sentiment among white people actually boils down to "it's okay if we can pity them and give them charity, it's not okay if they can honestly compete with us." It's really telling when some white people, those who actually treat colored people just fine, still find it hard to support president Obama for some non-descript reason.

I think you're right that a big part of trying to better the lives of elves is to gain the sympathy of some humans in power, as those humans can then try to change the way your average man-on-the-street perspective on elves.  In the context of future Dragon Age games, I wonder if Bioware is going to write something like this.

[Dorrieb]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
City Elves need to rally together (civilly) and try to branch out of the alienages and not be so closed off.

The very first dialogue in DA:O informed me that my mother was lynched for getting above herself and not knowing her place. Then there was that guy outside who got his legs broken as a dockworker and was left to die in an alley. Elf children were playing at human heroes because they'd never heard of any elf ones. Then I was beaten and kidnapped at my own wedding, in full view of a chantry priestess whose only objection was that a chantry ritual was being disrupted (in other words, please wait until after the wedding to beat and kidnap me!). My maid of honour was murdered and my cousin raped.

The human authorities were absolutely fine with all of this. They only became concerned when I maliciously displayed the unspeakable audacity to defend myself. That, in their opinion, was too much!

And you talk about 'not being so closed off'. Should we politely ask them to please cut down on the murder, rape, and mutilation, but only if it isn't too much trouble?

[Daerog]

Dorrieb wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
City Elves need to rally together (civilly) and try to branch out of the alienages and not be so closed off.

The very first dialogue in DA:O informed me that my mother was lynched for getting above herself and not knowing her place. Then there was that guy outside who got his legs broken as a dockworker and was left to die in an alley. Elf children were playing at human heroes because they'd never heard of any elf ones. Then I was beaten and kidnapped at my own wedding, in full view of a chantry priestess whose only objection was that a chantry ritual was being disrupted (in other words, please wait until after the wedding to beat and kidnap me!). My maid of honour was murdered and my cousin raped.

The human authorities were absolutely fine with all of this. They only became concerned when I maliciously displayed the unspeakable audacity to defend myself. That, in their opinion, was too much!

And you talk about 'not being so closed off'. Should we politely ask them to please cut down on the murder, rape, and mutilation, but only if it isn't too much trouble?

When individuals go out, ya, they get taken advantage of, mugging, murder, etc. The city elves don't have a strong community. They may have an identity they all cling to, but they do not look after each other. Shianni is quite the exception it seems, although she is pretty antagonistic, she has the right idea of looking out for each other and not being afraid to speak up, problem is, only the Warden really backs her up out of the whole community.

Also, I did not infer that from the priestess, she was shocked by the whole thing and moreso because it was a wedding, but I didn't get the impression that she was fine with whatever happens outside the wedding. It's not like she could do much anyway, she has no support in the alienage either.

Which is all why I said that the elves need to get a stronger community together, they need to support each other and quit thinking about individual survival. If all the elves stood up and gathered together when the noble ****** first showed up, and not allowing him to grab anyone for raping (also without assaulting him like Shianni did), then it would just make it more trouble than it is worth for the noble ******.

Not saying it is the fault of the elves, the humans that take advantage of them are the ones to blame, but they can do stuff to defend themselves (not violently) and stop having individuals go out, but groups of elves going to market, always together, always being visible to the humans who can sympathize. Violence is not necessary, revolution is not necessary, things can get better, but it won't be quick unless the elves wish to freak out the humans.

[Dorrieb]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
The city elves don't have a strong community. They may have an identity they all cling to, but they do not look after each other. Shianni is quite the exception it seems, although she is pretty antagonistic, she has the right idea of looking out for each other and not being afraid to speak up, problem is, only the Warden really backs her up out of the whole community.

Not so. The city elves do have a strong community, which is the only way they can survive at all. And Shianni is Adaia 2.0, and look where that got my mum.

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Also, I did not infer that from the priestess, she was shocked by the whole thing and moreso because it was a wedding, but I didn't get the impression that she was fine with whatever happens outside the wedding. It's not like she could do much anyway, she has no support in the alienage either.

'Pardon me officer, but I would like to report a serious crime, and I'm a chantry priestess so you can't just ignore me.' That wouldn't have been too much trouble, would it?

[Daerog]

Dorrieb wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
The city elves don't have a strong community. They may have an identity they all cling to, but they do not look after each other. Shianni is quite the exception it seems, although she is pretty antagonistic, she has the right idea of looking out for each other and not being afraid to speak up, problem is, only the Warden really backs her up out of the whole community.

Not so. The city elves do have a strong community, which is the only way they can survive at all. And Shianni is Adaia 2.0, and look where that got my mum.

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Also, I did not infer that from the priestess, she was shocked by the whole thing and moreso because it was a wedding, but I didn't get the impression that she was fine with whatever happens outside the wedding. It's not like she could do much anyway, she has no support in the alienage either.

'Pardon me officer, but I would like to report a serious crime, and I'm a chantry priestess so you can't just ignore me.' That wouldn't have been too much trouble, would it?

Why would the guards care about what the priestess has to say? Cause she is a priestess, with what evidence? Oh, her word, okay, but who pays the guards and whose guards are they? Besides, she ran off because she felt threatened by all the angry elves. She could have done better, yes, but can't blame her for being scared, an evil noble on one side and angry elves who may just assault the next lone human they find wandering around on the other. Which is what happens when a human is found wandering around by himself later...

Priestesses can just as easily be ignored as anyone else if she tries to go against a noble, as well, but i agree she should have tried.

Also, no, they do not have a strong community, they were all quiet when the noble ****** showed up thinking that if they are all quite, only some will get hurt and not everyone, like the individual thinking that. That is not a strong community, that is an apathetic community. They will help feed and cloth and shelter each other, but only when it is safe.

Keeping themselves isolated will continue the problem, but responding violently or with force will cause death. They need to group up and be seen by everyday humans, mingle more, get more human friends, support friendship with humans (maybe not marriage with humans, but that's different), branch out and stick together.

[NasreddinHodja]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Why would the guards care about what the priestess has to say? Cause she is a priestess, with what evidence? Oh, her word, okay, but who pays the guards and whose guards are they? Besides, she ran off because she felt threatened by all the angry elves. She could have done better, yes, but can't blame her for being scared, an evil noble on one side and angry elves who may just assault the next lone human they find wandering around on the other. Which is what happens when a human is found wandering around by himself later...

Priestesses can just as easily be ignored as anyone else if she tries to go against a noble, as well, but i agree she should have tried.

Also, no, they do not have a strong community, they were all quiet when the noble ****** showed up thinking that if they are all quite, only some will get hurt and not everyone, like the individual thinking that. That is not a strong community, that is an apathetic community. They will help feed and cloth and shelter each other, but only when it is safe.

Keeping themselves isolated will continue the problem, but responding violently or with force will cause death. They need to group up and be seen by everyday humans, mingle more, get more human friends, support friendship with humans (maybe not marriage with humans, but that's different), branch out and stick together.

From what I can understand, had the elven community stood up to Vaughn and do not allow him to take the elven maidens, he would have torched the Alienage instead.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  I think you are underestimating the power of society bigotry in a medieval society.  Sure, the elves can take steps to better themselves (my City Elf Warden installed Shianni as an elven representative in the Landsmeet), but to say that the responsibility to make situations better lie solely at the hands of the elves is unfair as well.  So far we have only discussed what the elves can do.  How about any sympathetic humans?  Can they not do anything at the same time?

[Daerog]

Burn down or not, that is not a gaurantee, raping would be, fact that only the Warden and Shianni stood up was sad and shows that the city elves seem to not care about other individuals.

Humans can vocally support elves and buy stuff from elf stores to financially support them. Although, when lone humans get assaulted in alienages and elves are hardly seen outside of them, makes it all a little tough.

Anyway, I'm finding this argument to be a little silly on my part, how would this be put into a game? I can only imagine supporting elf leaders and whatnot when they appear, all this ground up is something that is up to the writers, not the player.

[Dorrieb]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Why would the guards care about what the priestess has to say? Cause she is a priestess, with what evidence?

Oh, please. She doesn't have to present the case in court. Just call the cops to report a crime. It isn't difficult.

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Also, no, they do not have a strong community,

Opening narration of the City Elf origin: 'Despite these hardships, the city elves are a strong people who take pride in their strong community. ' That's from the omniscient third-person narrator.

[NasreddinHodja]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Anyway, I'm finding this argument to be a little silly on my part, how would this be put into a game? I can only imagine supporting elf leaders and whatnot when they appear, all this ground up is something that is up to the writers, not the player.

I agree, actually.  There seems to be a lot more that can be said on the issue, but I fear we're getting off-topic because this section of the forum is supposed to be about DA3.  I guess if this kind of thread every appear in the Off-Topic section I may visit and read it.

[MisterJB]

Dorrieb wrote...
And you talk about 'not being so closed off'. Should we politely ask them to please cut down on the murder, rape, and mutilation, but only if it isn't too much trouble?

No, you should stop looking at the elves who buy houses outside of the alienage with contempt. You should work within your community to transport as many elves as possible to these habitations and protect them; you should quell acts of unprovoked elven violence to earn simpathy; you should work towards placing elves in the city guard.
It's not going to be easy and it's not going to happen overnight but if the elves insist on isolating themselves in their corner of the city, nothing will ever change.

Dorrieb wrote...
Oh, please. She doesn't have to present the case in court. Just call the cops to report a crime. It isn't difficult.

Who's the say she didn't? Who's the guard willing to stand up to a noble for anyone, not just elves?

[Dorrieb]

MisterJB wrote...
Who's the say she didn't?

I say she didn't, and I know because I was there! Secretly kidnap a templar and throw him in a dungeon, and the Grand Cleric herself throws down against the Regent. Kidnap, murder, and rape a group of elfmaids in broad daylight and the priestess just goes 'tut, tut!' and goes home.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:05 .

[BlueMagitek]

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Grand Cleric has more political weight in a room of nobles (many of whom disagree with the Regent) who at least pretend to worship Andraste than a random priestess who might be able to talk to a few guards.

And, you know, a Templar is part of the Chantry, not just a random civilian.

[TCBC_Freak]

Dorrieb wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Who's the say she didn't?

I say she didn't, and I know because I was there! Secretly kidnap a templar and throw him in a dungeon, and the Grand Cleric herself throws down against the Regent. Kidnap, murder, and rape a group of elfmaids in broad daylight and the priestess just goes 'tut, tut!' and goes home.

There's a big difference between a Grand Cleric and random Priestess Number 4 who just happens to be preforming a wedding. One can just sent in Templar, or pay someone else in their stead, whenever she wants to do anything she wants (if she's feeling feisty); the other has to go tell her superiors, who tell theirs, who tell the Grand Cleric if she's even in town, who... well, by then the elves had already escaped on their own.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Dorrieb]

Yes, I suppose you're right. That must be why when the watch turns up, the captain says, 'The sister told us what happened,' before they try to arrest you. And also why, when you return to Denerim and strike up numerous conversations with the chantry priestesses, they mention 'Oh, we remember you. Sister Honoria told us what happened and we tried to do something about it, but it was too late,' before asking you to run a number of errands for them. Kylon mentions it as well, when you're working for the city guard. And of course, when you spring Soris from the dungeon, he does mention that Sister Honoria and some of the chantry priestesses had spoken on his behalf.

And during the Landsmeet, the one point that really sways everyone's vote is that Loghain sold elves into slavery for money. Mention that, and you might not even have to fight him.

How could I forget about all that?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why would the guards care about what some priestess said happened to a bunch of Elves? The guards aren't being paid by either Elves or the Chantry... On the other hand the nobles are paying the guards wagers, so they do as the nobles say.

[MisterJB]

Allow me to make it perfectly for you, Dorrieb.
Humans and elves don't like each other, at all. Add a noble to the mix and random Priestess Number 4 could have earnestly pleaded with the guard all day and they wouldn't have done a thing.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:42 .

[NasreddinHodja]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the guards care about what some priestess said happened to a bunch of Elves? The guards aren't being paid by either Elves or the Chantry... On the other hand the nobles are paying the guards wagers, so they do as the nobles say.

This kinda points out how a peaceful elf-only movement to open themselves out to the humans would end in disaster.  Even supposing they do plan a mass exodus out of the alienage, and then plomping themselves in human communities, there's no telling whether the people around them are willing to suddenly live alongside elves ("Raisin in the Sun" anyone?).  Sure if they try to evict the elves violently, the elves can organize a defense, but then the city guards going to be called in, and the city guards answer to the nobles.  I have yet to see a single noble (Alistair probably the exception) who would try to stand up for the elves rather than for the human mob (you gotta keep your people happy, after all, and the elves are just not your people).  In fact, I have a suspicion that the alienage actually didn't begin because the elves wanted to isolate themselves, but because the humans around them want to alienate the elves.

[Dorrieb]

MisterJB wrote...
Allow me to make it perfectly for you, Dorrieb.
Humans and elves don't like each other, at all. Add a noble to the mix and random Priestess Number 4 could have earnestly pleaded with the guard all day and they wouldn't have done a thing.

Allow me to make it clear to you: she might have tried. That is, if she cared at all. But her exact words indicate that she did not. She said 'My lord, this is a wedding!' and not 'My lord, rape is wrong!' She is only upset that the ceremony is being disturbed, not especially concerned about the victims.

I dunno why you're so keen on defending this particular chantry priestess, but her actions don't speak well of her.

[MisterJB]

Dorrieb wrote...
Allow me to make it clear to you: she might have tried. That is, if she cared at all. But her exact words indicate that she did not. She said 'My lord, this is a wedding!' and not 'My lord, rape is wrong!' She is only upset that the ceremony is being disturbed, not especially concerned about the victims.

I dunno why you're so keen on defending this particular chantry priestess, but her actions don't speak well of her.

You have no evidence, nothing, that indicates that she did not try. Nor do I have any that she did.
I am not being particularly defendant of her, I am merely opposing your wild speculation that "My lord, this is a wedding" somehow equals that she is fine with rape. Maybe she is just appaled that anyone would try to ruin an happy ocasion and with such evil intentions. 

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:20 .