298 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...
Titles are not rights, they are privilages and rewards.  Who gets so honored and when is entirely the perogative of the relevant lord or Sovereign.

Except that legally, in the world of Thedas, no elf can earn/hold one, and nor can a half-elf. When a City Elf Warden or Shianni is made Bann of the Denerim Alienage at the end of Origins, it's the first time such a thing has happened virtually ever, with the possible exception of Tevinter, and it's a pretty damn big deal.

Is there a law prohibiting it, or is it just something that hasn't happened? The US president has never been female, but that doesn't mean that there is a law against it.

My general understanding is that there is a literal law, but information on the law of Thedas and how it works is scant, so I'm open to the possibility of being proven wrong.

I don't know the history of US law either, not being American, but I think you'll find that there was a time when a woman becoming president would have been considered illegal, even if no specific law forbade it.

In our enlightened age, we somehow all agreed without discussion that the term "men" in older legal documents should be interpreted to be inclusive of women, but  that was certainly not the case when it was actually written. If women were truly considered equal to men, they would've been more involved in the drafting of those documents. And also, they would've been allowed to vote from the get-go.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...
Titles are not rights, they are privilages and rewards.  Who gets so honored and when is entirely the perogative of the relevant lord or Sovereign.

Except that legally, in the world of Thedas, no elf can earn/hold one, and nor can a half-elf. When a City Elf Warden or Shianni is made Bann of the Denerim Alienage at the end of Origins, it's the first time such a thing has happened virtually ever, with the possible exception of Tevinter, and it's a pretty damn big deal.

Actually that just goes to demonstrate my point about titles.  By that very example, ennobling an elf as a Bann was not a matter of law, and most certainly not a matter of "rights", but simply the will of the Sovereign.

Since "half-elves" are human, I don't see the problem.  Neither concealing the exact parentage of a given lordling nor side-stepping siblings who would otherwise be further up the food chain are exactly new problems for the nobility nor are they unique to "half-elves".

The 'problem' is that the law forbids it, the same way that girl children once could not inherit titles or land, and thus the half-elves have an extra disadvantage that a full-blooded human does not.

You misunderstand.  Thedas is not a legalistic society.  "The law", such as it is, is the province and prerogative of the nobility, it is by no means a hindrance to a noble's wishes.  In other words, if a given lord chooses to name a "half-elf" as his heir then the only thing preventing from doing so would be pressure from his peers (and his lessers too I suppose, if the decision were unpopular enough) and the risk of suffering the displeasure of the Sovereign.

Here you might have a point, but far from an unqualified one.  After all, elves and humans can get married.  Now , there might be consequences for choosing to do that (wealthy human parents might disinherit their children, Dalish parents might just kill the both of them, society in general might not recognize the union as valid, etc.) but humans and elves can still get married.

Society/law not recognising the union is the entire problem.  In the real world, gay couples can hold hands and say some nice words and consider themselves "married", but nobody is debating the right to perform a private spiritual ceremony. What the gay community wants is the legal recognition of their relationship as 'valid', and the associated rights and benefits. And that's what elf/human couples in Thedas should want too, assuming legal recognition of marriage comes with any benefits in Thedas.

Benefits notwithstanding (btw, if this is about money, just say so) I thought the "right" to married was the entire problem.

And, if mainstream Thedas is anything like similar societies on Earth (Ancient Rome and Medieval/Renaissance Europe) then, in order to be recognized as valid a marriage would need either/or/both the blessing of the Chantry and the accord of the community.  The former should not be enforced by the State and the latter cannot be.

Modifié par General User, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:48 .

[vortex216]

There are 5 types of elves in all of Thedas
a) The Dalish, wanderers who haven't recovered much of their lost culture because of the chantry.
The city elves (alienage), who are treated worse than street rats and can hardly find any jobs. Most are in poverty and do not get proper justice. They are opressed by humans.
c) The city elves (has house in actual city), A small portion of elves who somehow became marchants and "moved up in the world", but still are treated a little better than alienage elves. They are harrased by humans in their day-to-day lives.
d) The elven mages who blaaaaddaa templars blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa opressed by chantry.
e) The tevinter elves who are somehow treated worse than city elves and are slaves. Some, however through bargaining can be made magisters. Opressed by mages.

Do see a pattern? that's why I'm so tired of elves and think there story is boring as death. Elves are awesome and I'm rooting for them, It's just that if you have seen one overly-opressed and hated culture for hundreds of years, you see em' all. Although, that may change because a lot of elven problems can be traced back to the chantry. And with the templars and seekers went away, they have nothing going for them.

[JWvonGoethe]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well white people did play a part in civil rights activism. For a minority action to be successful, it ultimately needs to sway the majority over to its side. A human protagonist could assist the elven rebellion for moral or selfish personal reasons, and still not be a major player or figurehead of it.

In Red Dead Redemption, John Marston fights on both sides of a political conflict in Mexico, because he wants information on his targets. He ultimately helps the rebels to win victory, but his contribution is barely rewarded and receives no public acknowledgement at all.

Obviously you're right: the civil rights movement cannot be successful without people of all ethnicities working together. I tried to make that clear in the edit of my post, but it appears I didn't manage to edit it in time before you started typing up your reply. I didn't see your post before I edited mine, but judging from the time differences between our posts, I must have spent about 15 minutes adding one sentence! Which isn't actually that unusual for me...

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...
*snip*

Fine.

We really don't know enough about the legal structure of Thedas to determine what rights elves do or do not lack compared to humans, and maybe it was a mistake to try and identify specifics, but the elves are obviously suffering due to universal bigotry and to deny that they are treated unequally to humans generally is nonsense. The evidence is clear.

[Plaintiff]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Well white people did play a part in civil rights activism. For a minority action to be successful, it ultimately needs to sway the majority over to its side. A human protagonist could assist the elven rebellion for moral or selfish personal reasons, and still not be a major player or figurehead of it.

In Red Dead Redemption, John Marston fights on both sides of a political conflict in Mexico, because he wants information on his targets. He ultimately helps the rebels to win victory, but his contribution is barely rewarded and receives no public acknowledgement at all.

Obviously you're right: the civil rights movement cannot be successful without people of all ethnicities working together. I tried to make that clear in the edit of my post, but it appears I didn't manage to edit it in time before you started typing up your reply. I didn't see your post before I edited mine, but judging from the time differences between our posts, I must have spent about 15 minutes adding one sentence! Which isn't actually that unusual for me...

Well, I agree with you that the plot of Avatar is pretty obnoxious, when you think about it, and I wouldn't want to see Bioware do something like that. There are actually a lot of movies like that out there, mostly dealing with real-world history, and they all have the same problem.

The problem stems really from the fact that almost every Hollywood film protagonist is a white, straight male. They're over-represented to a ridiculous degree, and we as audiences are complicit in this because we passively accept this over-representation, even when the inclusion of such a character is obnoxious, offensive, or just downright doesn't make any sense.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 novembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[unbentbuzzkill]

I would love a option to improve the elves in any DA game, But why did bioware decide to make the elves the "slave" race in the first place, I mean really think about it, Dwarves aren't considered inferior neither are Qunari even the mages in the circle tower are treated better then the elves in the alienege and to a certain extent the elves chose to be there mages have no choice. the whole second class citizen thing is just absurd.

[MisterJB]

Elves have the same legal rigths as any non-noble born human in all Andrastian Nations.
The social inequalities between most humans and elves exist because of racial tension which both sides have helped create.
Humans dislike elves so, any seen outside of the alienage tends to be victim of violence. And the other elves, rather than work together towards a better position in human society, insist on following in the footsteps of their ancests and isolate themselves in a squalor filled corner of the city.

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...
*snip*

Fine.

We really don't know enough about the legal structure of Thedas to determine what rights elves do or do not lack compared to humans, and maybe it was a mistake to try and identify specifics, but the elves are obviously suffering due to universal bigotry and to deny that they are treated unequally to humans generally is nonsense. The evidence is clear.

It wasn't a mistake to try and identify specifics, you were responding to a rhetorical question.  Nothing wrong with that.

Now for the implications.  You see, elves receiving discriminatory treatment in mainstream Thedan society is one thing, elves lacking "rights" is quite another.  It's an important distinction if any "improv[ing] the lives of elves" (per OP) program is to make any sense because the latter can only be "solved" by a bottom-up cultural shift, on the part of the elves in question most of all. 

In other words, elves are suffering not just due to "universal bigotry" (which I highly doubt is anywhere near as universal or as bigoted as you seem to be presenting it) but also due to their own ignorance, laziness, anger and greed.  Trying to solve one without properly addressing the other is a fool's errand.

Modifié par General User, 27 novembre 2012 - 03:45 .

[Plaintiff]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

I would love a option to improve the elves in any DA game, But why did bioware decide to make the elves the "slave" race in the first place, I mean really think about it, Dwarves aren't considered inferior neither are Qunari even the mages in the circle tower are treated better then the elves in the alienege and to a certain extent the elves chose to be there mages have no choice. the whole second class citizen thing is just absurd.

Why is any race treated poorly anywhere?

[unbentbuzzkill]

races are treated poorly for many reasons (none of which make any sense imo it's just a reason to hate for no reason) considering all of the things the elves have done you would think they would get more respect.

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...
*snip*

Fine.

We really don't know enough about the legal structure of Thedas to determine what rights elves do or do not lack compared to humans, and maybe it was a mistake to try and identify specifics, but the elves are obviously suffering due to universal bigotry and to deny that they are treated unequally to humans generally is nonsense. The evidence is clear.

It wasn't a mistake to try and identify specifics, you were responding to a rhetorical question.  Nothing wrong with that.

Now for the implications.  You see, elves receiving discriminatory treatment in mainstream Thedan society is one thing, elves lacking "rights" is quite another.  It's an important distinction if any "improv[ing] the lives of elves" (per OP) program is to make any sense because the latter can only be "solved" by a bottom-up cultural shift, on the part of the elves in question most of all. 

In other words, elves are suffering not just due to "universal bigotry" (which I highly doubt is anywhere near as universal or as bigoted as you seem to be presenting it) but also due to their own ignorance, laziness, anger and greed.  Trying to solve one without properly addressing the other is a fool's errand.

I don't see the elves as 'lazy' at all. If they're ignorant, it's because they aren't educated, but almost nobody in Thedas is educated, and there's no feasible way for them to get "more" educated. Their culture was destroyed by humans twice and expecting them to not be angry about that is an unfair and hypocritical expectation on the part of any human. Anger is going to be the driving force of any social change, anyway, that's the way it's always been, even in a peaceful protest.

Until I see an example of a society in Thedas regarding the elves with any sort of respect, I'm going to assume that bigotry against them is a widespread thing. We know that human settlements will attack Dalish clans with little provocation; that's what happened to Velanna's clan. we know that the nobility is blissfully ignorant of the abuse that elves suffer, Maric is shocked to hear about the kidnap and rape that occured in the Alienage, and there's no way Loghain could've gotten away with selling humans in Denerim to Tevinter as slaves, but elves have no recourse when such events occur. We also know that it is rare, if not impossible, for an elf to rise above anything other than a servile position.

It's easy to write minority groups off as "lazy", it happens all the time in our own world, but we don't take into account the fact that they are often at a severe economic disadvantage, making do with sub-par resources, and still having to combat the casual racism that we like to ignore. It's like demanding that everybody reach the top of a ladder at the same time, even though some people have to start on a much lower rung.

[MisterJB]

All the elves have done?
What? All I can recall now is Garahel and the Night Elves who no one outside of Ferelden would give two figs about.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Their culture was destroyed by humans twice and expecting them to not be angry about that is an unfair and hypocritical expectation on the part of any human.

Fine, so long as humans are afforded the same comprehension after the Dales almost destroyed Orlais.

[Herr Uhl]

Plaintiff wrote...

We know that human settlements will attack Dalish clans with little provocation; that's what happened to Velanna's clan.

Wasn't that darkspawn? Or was it a prior attack?

[ShadowLordXII]

MisterJB wrote...

All the elves have done?
What? All I can recall now is Garahel and the Night Elves who no one outside of Ferelden would give two figs about.

Let's see:

Shartan led a group of elves to aid Andraste. (But his part in the Chant got crossed out later)

Garahel was an elven grey warden during the 4th Blight who sacrificed his life to kill the Archdemon.

And that's honestly it, but those are two major things that have either been overlooked or crossed out for convenience to Chantry politics.

Maybe the option to improve the lot of elves would end in failure, but the chance should still be given.  I know that Bioware went into the Dragon Age series and intentionally placed elves at the bottom of society as a reversal of fantasy genre norm, but ignoring one injustice and fighting a war over another just seems like a double-standard.

The change doesn't even have to be immediate, it could be a situation that sparks a wide-spread demand from elves around Thedas.  With the Chantry already attempting to keep allies, they could easily decree some sort of Affirmative Action thing and the people would mostly follow it because they're brainwashed by the Chantry.

Templars would be focused on mages and mages wouldn't care because they're fighting for their own freedom, not to mention how bad it would look for mages to actively fight against rebelling elves when they themselves are fighting against an oppressive societal norm.

We've appointed kings and queens of elves and dwarves; Killed an Arishok; Took part in the opening forray of the Mage-Templar War; and even fought an Ancient Tevinter Magister.  What about giving elves the opportunity for decent jobs, adequate living conditions, marry and raise their family without fear of getting killed or raped by a human who won't be punished or admonised for it.

[PsychoBlonde]

Plaintiff wrote...

I think the elf issue is less interesting to most people because it's more clear-cut. There have been discussions on Elven oppression,  but they don't last long because you're not going to find anybody willing to argue that their oppression is morally right or somehow necessary.

Without getting into details, because that's not the topic of this thread, both sides of the mage conflict have at least one good point each. As you yourself said, some people find the mage situation unjust, but others don't.

When it comes to the elf situation, or even the caste system of the dwarves, everyone simply agrees that these are terrible things.

Indeed.  And the elven and dwarven underclasses don't seem too interested in doing anything productive about it.  The Dalish are trying to preserve their past rather than build their future--and many of them despise City Elves even more than humans do.  The casteless dwarves could exit to the surface--many caste dwarves do this, even.

It'd be nice to have an elven companion or NPC who is actually working toward something productive that doesn't involve fixing a demon-infested Doom Mirror or something equally foolish.  Might even make for a cool plot if he/she discovers that the main resistance to the plan actually comes from the elves and their dreams of lost glory.

[MisterJB]

ShadowLordXII wrote...
Shartan led a group of elves to aid Andraste. (But his part in the Chant got crossed out later)

Garahel was an elven grey warden during the 4th Blight who sacrificed his life to kill the Archdemon.

And that's honestly it, but those are two major things that have either been overlooked or crossed out for convenience to Chantry politics.

They are major things but to expect a singular elf to suddenly make all racist humans rethink their actions is asking too much from sentient beings.
And I think you're getting it backwards. The Chantry did not cross out Shartan's chant to justify an invasion of the Dales. They did it after the elven sacked Val-Royeaux which made the Chantry understandably angry.
It might be time to forgive since every elf and human involved has long sice died but it's not like the elves are paragons of racial tolerance themselves. Even the very word for "human" in their language is a racial slur.
 

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 novembre 2012 - 04:35 .

[esper]

The whole legal aspect of the debate is void, because we have yet to see a society in Thedas where the law actually matters equally.
Just look at Aveline, she is properly one of the most corrupt guard captains I have seen for a long time and she is hailed as an improvement.
Even if the law gave elves equal rights to everyone else, they are below commoner and poor human in social rank, which means that any law meant to proctect them properly wouldn't be enforced unless it fitted the mood of whoever is in charge of the guards.

[unbentbuzzkill]

for one singular elf to change everybodies perception is foolish but keep in mind the elves helped stop the blight in DA:O (if you recruited them) they signed the treaties with the grey wardens, time and time again when it comes down to it they are there. that alone should earn them respect.

[General User]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

I don't see the elves as 'lazy' at all. [/quote]Then you haven't been paying attention.

[quote]If they're ignorant, it's because they aren't educated, but almost nobody in Thedas is educated, and there's no feasible way for them to get "more" educated. [/quote]Clearly most of the "hahren's" aren't doing their jobs.  Again, that's the elves problem to solve.  No one else even could do it for them, even if anyone wanted to.

[quote]Their culture was destroyed by humans twice and expecting them to not be angry about that is an unfair and hypocritical expectation on the part of any human. [/quote] Which brings up another thing the elves as a group need to do before they can move forward in any major, productive way.  Namely they need to come to terms with the fact that, historically, they respectively contributed to (Arlathan) and were even the driving force behind (The Dales) their own destruction. 

[quote]Anger is going to be the driving force of any social change, anyway, that's the way it's always been, even in a peaceful protest. [/quote]No it hasn't.  Not productive social change anyway.   Righteous indignation maybe/occasionally, but not anger.  And those two should never be confused.  In fact the confusing of those two is in no small part why so many "social change" ideologies have, when implemented, either failed or degenerated into monstrous nightmares.

[quote]Until I see an example of a society in Thedas regarding the elves with any sort of respect, I'm going to assume that bigotry against them is a widespread thing. [/quote]It is widespread, it's just not as intense, or significant, or (in particular) as unfounded as you seem to believe it to be.

[quote]We know that human settlements will attack Dalish clans with little provocation; that's what happened to Velanna's clan. [/quote]That has got to be one of the worst examples I've ever seen.  Velanna went on a murderous killing spree targeting innocent people.  Humans attack Dalish clans like Velanna's when they TRESPASS on human lands, specifically because those clans contain people like Velanna.  And they are right to do so.  Velanna is very the cover girl for why Dalish (and mages too btw) should not be trusted.

[quote]we know that the nobility is blissfully ignorant of the abuse that elves suffer, Maric is shocked to hear about the kidnap and rape that occured in the Alienage, [/quote]That's not exactly unusual.  A great many things about the lives of the lower classes tend to shock those of more elevated upbringing.  Are you by chance familiar with the life of Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha?

[quote]and there's no way Loghain could've gotten away with selling humans in Denerim to Tevinter as slaves,[/quote]I take it that you missed the part where revealing Loghain's deal with those slavers/mages brought condemnation from the rest of the Landsmeet.  Besides selling elves to the Tevinter mages was easy to conceal in no small part because the elves of the Alienage choose to live as a distinct and segregated community rather than integrating more fully into Ferelden society.  What you had there was, in no small part, an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences in action I'm afraid.

[quote]but elves have no recourse when such events occur. [/quote]Ditto everyone else.  Or, more accurately, elves have just as much recourse when such events occur, ie they can appeal to their lord.

[quote]We also know that it is rare, if not impossible, for an elf to rise above anything other than a servile position.[/quote]Ditto everyone else again.

[quote]It's easy to write minority groups off as "lazy", it happens all the time in our own world, but we don't take into account the fact that they are often at a severe economic disadvantage, making do with sub-par resources, and still having to combat the casual racism that we like to ignore. It's like demanding that everybody reach the top of a ladder at the same time, even though some people have to start on a much lower rung.[/quote]I'm insisting that the elves at least attempt to climb the ladder not be just content to wallow in the mud at the bottom until their "betters" see fit to reach down and pull them up.  Because until elves make some sort of attempt to better themselves it really isn't worth putting anyone else out of sorts in order to help them. 

Modifié par General User, 27 novembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[MisterJB]

esper wrote...
Even if the law gave elves equal rights to everyone else, they are below commoner and poor human in social rank, which means that any law meant to proctect them properly wouldn't be enforced unless it fitted the mood of whoever is in charge of the guards.

They have equal rigths. They just aren't enforced because of racial tensions and the elves don't have any elven guardsman to resort to. We have only seen one so far but that is a step foward rather than just close themselves in a corner of the city complaining how mean humans are.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 novembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[esper]

MisterJB wrote...

esper wrote...
Even if the law gave elves equal rights to everyone else, they are below commoner and poor human in social rank, which means that any law meant to proctect them properly wouldn't be enforced unless it fitted the mood of whoever is in charge of the guards.

They have equal rigths. They just aren't enforced because of racial tensions and the elves don't have any elven guardsman to resort to. We have only seen one so far but that is a step foward rather than just close themselves in a corner of the city complaining how mean humans are.

That was Aveline's grace, which was the least she could do after the whole guard rapes elves sister and doesn't get hold accountable. The chance of it happening everywhere else is really, really slim. But then again. Poor laws are not just a problem for the elves. Common humans and poor humans have that problem too.

The first thing, the city elves needs to do, is to somehow gather together with an agenda and a goal of what they want. Untill they do that, they simply can't be helped. They need to take the first steps themselves.

[MisterJB]

esper wrote...
That was Aveline's grace, which was the least she could do after the whole guard rapes elves sister and doesn't get hold accountable. The chance of it happening everywhere else is really, really slim. But then again. Poor laws are not just a problem for the elves. Common humans and poor humans have that problem too.

The first thing, the city elves needs to do, is to somehow gather together with an agenda and a goal of what they want. Untill they do that, they simply can't be helped. They need to take the first steps themselves.

See, I agree with you.
Altough it wasn't the whole guard, just a single guardsman. And Aveline didn't have an obligation to accept an elf into the Guard if she, this particular elf, is not qualified which I imagine she was. Aveline's obligation is to ensure crimes like that don't happen again.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I'm not really sure what we can be expected to do for elves. I mean don't get me wrong, if I overhear someone being racist I will gladly stab them, but that only takes care of the worst excesses.

Maybe there will be more chances to move elves out of the Alienage. I quite enjoyed trolling Hightown.