This is a topic I can get behind. Elves have it rough.
An Option to improve the lives of Elves
Débuté par
ShadowLordXII
, nov. 27 2012 05:27
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#52
Posté 27 novembre 2012 - 06:08
Dorrieb
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I can't speak for anyone else, but my entire motivation in DA:O was to fight for my people, the city elves. I missed that in DA2, among other things. After striking it rich in Act 1 Hawke didn't seem to have any agenda of her own, being just the go-to person for everyone else's troubles for no particular reason. I would like to be able to fight for my peeps again.
And meeting the Dalish was a terrible disappointment for my city elf. Coming up abused and oppressed by humans who call us 'knife-ears' now we get to be abused and disdained by these elfier-than-thou pikeys! Not only that, but they come up with the corker that they're descended from the 'noblest' of the elves, whereas we descend from the rabble of that society, from which I get that if they ever manage to establish a new homeland for the elves we can look forward to being their third-class citizens, instead of being the third-class citizens of the humans. Screw the dalish elves!
And meeting the Dalish was a terrible disappointment for my city elf. Coming up abused and oppressed by humans who call us 'knife-ears' now we get to be abused and disdained by these elfier-than-thou pikeys! Not only that, but they come up with the corker that they're descended from the 'noblest' of the elves, whereas we descend from the rabble of that society, from which I get that if they ever manage to establish a new homeland for the elves we can look forward to being their third-class citizens, instead of being the third-class citizens of the humans. Screw the dalish elves!
Modifié par Dorrieb, 27 novembre 2012 - 08:48 .
#53
Posté 27 novembre 2012 - 06:36
Larathia
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While I love to play an elf (see profile pic!) I can understand why elves are the oppressed race and mages aren't. Bluntly - the elves are oppressed because they CAN be. Thedas is, at least in the games we've seen so far, a human world. The Dwarves are slowly destroyed by the darkspawn and their own caste system - the humans don't care. The Elves get their butts kicked and made a servant/slave class to the human kingdoms. Again the humans don't care - they have no need to.
This is *not the same* as what's going on with the mages. Not just because there's a 'point in favor' of subjugating the mages (you can make economic points in favor of subjugating pretty much anyone) but because the current chantry system has both an understandable origin, and an inevitable end.
DA2 is not, actually, the story of Hawke. It's the story of the inevitable end of the Chantry system, which Hawke (via proximity to Anders) was a ground zero witness to, and party to. The problem with the subjugation of the mages is that it's not straightforward oppression the way the standard fantasy racism of Thedas works; it's something *the mages themselves* have to understand and accept as necessary.
...that may require explanation. Uh. Lemme try.
Mages know better than anyone how easy it is to become an abomination - how easy it is for a mage to slip up, and be overtaken by a demon through trickery, weakness, inexperience, whathaveyou. That's a real danger. The 'understandable origin' of the Chantry could be said to be a response to this - give mages a comfortable life, away from the usual stresses and temptations (hunger, thirst, poverty, abuse) and surely they'll be less susceptible to temptation.
For the most part, this works. You can see in Origins - MOST of the mages, who aren't shoved headfirst into Serious Trouble or abused, are pretty all right people. Kinda snotty, in the way priveleged people get, but not exactly likely to fireball you for dropping your beer in their lap, either.
The system, however, got corrupted. In part by templars - who go from 'protect the mages from things that might make them start reaching for dark power in the name of survival' to being the mages' jailors, thus *themselves* becoming an instrument of oppression that a mage might very well want to turn to darker magic to get away from. In part by the Chantry, which makes Circle residency mandatory for all mages (thus, again, turning the Circle from 'a much better option than oppression/hunger/want' into a prison).
Anders is just one of many mages who probably would've been fine, if the system had allowed mages to come and go freely and just nailed them if they DO fireball you for dropping your beer on them.
DA2 makes clear that in Kirkwall at least (and the codex does at least make clear 'why Kirkwall') the Circle is a prison that offers as an alternative only a death sentence. Mages go darkside to get away from it, thus justifying templar/Chantry fears of darkside mages, increasing restrictions on mages, thus pushing more mages to go darkside, hello downward spiral. If not Anders, someone else - the situation was going to explode eventually.
'Cos really, the mages can only be bound if they are WILLING to be bound. Unlike dwarves, or elves, or any other oppressed group...mages have genuine power. Genuine, individual, rip-buildings-into-rubble power. And you can only cage or oppress such a group for as long as they are willing to accept that cage. Once the Chantry and the templars forgot that, war was inevitable.
Thus I totally get why the next game is going to be more about the mages. But - all this said! - I do think it would be GREAT to have some side games or DLCs available that let you affect the lives of the dwarves and the elves, or explore the Qunari, because while Thedas is a human dominated world, they aren't ALL the world. And it'd be neat if, while the humans are fighting about their mages, there's some content available down the line that shows what the dwarves, elves, qunari, or even darkspawn were up to in the meantime. Maybe the great mage war is what lets another race rise to the top?
This is *not the same* as what's going on with the mages. Not just because there's a 'point in favor' of subjugating the mages (you can make economic points in favor of subjugating pretty much anyone) but because the current chantry system has both an understandable origin, and an inevitable end.
DA2 is not, actually, the story of Hawke. It's the story of the inevitable end of the Chantry system, which Hawke (via proximity to Anders) was a ground zero witness to, and party to. The problem with the subjugation of the mages is that it's not straightforward oppression the way the standard fantasy racism of Thedas works; it's something *the mages themselves* have to understand and accept as necessary.
...that may require explanation. Uh. Lemme try.
Mages know better than anyone how easy it is to become an abomination - how easy it is for a mage to slip up, and be overtaken by a demon through trickery, weakness, inexperience, whathaveyou. That's a real danger. The 'understandable origin' of the Chantry could be said to be a response to this - give mages a comfortable life, away from the usual stresses and temptations (hunger, thirst, poverty, abuse) and surely they'll be less susceptible to temptation.
For the most part, this works. You can see in Origins - MOST of the mages, who aren't shoved headfirst into Serious Trouble or abused, are pretty all right people. Kinda snotty, in the way priveleged people get, but not exactly likely to fireball you for dropping your beer in their lap, either.
The system, however, got corrupted. In part by templars - who go from 'protect the mages from things that might make them start reaching for dark power in the name of survival' to being the mages' jailors, thus *themselves* becoming an instrument of oppression that a mage might very well want to turn to darker magic to get away from. In part by the Chantry, which makes Circle residency mandatory for all mages (thus, again, turning the Circle from 'a much better option than oppression/hunger/want' into a prison).
Anders is just one of many mages who probably would've been fine, if the system had allowed mages to come and go freely and just nailed them if they DO fireball you for dropping your beer on them.
DA2 makes clear that in Kirkwall at least (and the codex does at least make clear 'why Kirkwall') the Circle is a prison that offers as an alternative only a death sentence. Mages go darkside to get away from it, thus justifying templar/Chantry fears of darkside mages, increasing restrictions on mages, thus pushing more mages to go darkside, hello downward spiral. If not Anders, someone else - the situation was going to explode eventually.
'Cos really, the mages can only be bound if they are WILLING to be bound. Unlike dwarves, or elves, or any other oppressed group...mages have genuine power. Genuine, individual, rip-buildings-into-rubble power. And you can only cage or oppress such a group for as long as they are willing to accept that cage. Once the Chantry and the templars forgot that, war was inevitable.
Thus I totally get why the next game is going to be more about the mages. But - all this said! - I do think it would be GREAT to have some side games or DLCs available that let you affect the lives of the dwarves and the elves, or explore the Qunari, because while Thedas is a human dominated world, they aren't ALL the world. And it'd be neat if, while the humans are fighting about their mages, there's some content available down the line that shows what the dwarves, elves, qunari, or even darkspawn were up to in the meantime. Maybe the great mage war is what lets another race rise to the top?
#54
Posté 27 novembre 2012 - 07:32
Battlebloodmage
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I don't deny that elves are being oppressed, but if elves can't hold high office then how do you explain Orsino being the first enchanter. He commands many the humans and elf mages, and they seem to respect and listen to him.
Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 27 novembre 2012 - 07:34 .
#55
Posté 27 novembre 2012 - 07:41
Larathia
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The Circle treats elves differently than the 'civilian' world - that's made clear enough in Origins, particularly in Wynne's companion quest. It's stated outright that Aneirin came to the Circle with all the Issues a city elf normally has, and couldn't see at first that the Circle didn't care about what social class or race you came from.
However, note also that Circle mages can only hope for power *within* the Circle; 'mage' supersedes 'elf' in this case, but nonmagical elves have a much worse quality of life than nonmagical humans.
However, note also that Circle mages can only hope for power *within* the Circle; 'mage' supersedes 'elf' in this case, but nonmagical elves have a much worse quality of life than nonmagical humans.
#56
Posté 27 novembre 2012 - 07:42
Harle Cerulean
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Battlebloodmage wrote...
I don't deny that elves are being oppressed, but if elves can't hold high office then how do you explain Orsino. He commands many the humans and elf mages, and they seem to respect and listen to him.
First, the Circle is distinct from the rest of Thedas in that while there is anti-elf bigotry, it's markedly less than outside the Circle. There's a lot more "We're mages" and a lot less "Ewww, knife-ears." There's still some of the latter but it's not as much.
Second, Orsino got the job because no one else wanted it. No else one wanted to have to deal with Meredith head on so much like the First Enchanter does.
#57
Posté 27 novembre 2012 - 09:52
Xilizhra
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And what do you think would happen if the elves left the Alienage and started actively asserting their own positions? I'll spoil you and say it'd go quite badly.MisterJB wrote...
They have equal rigths. They just aren't enforced because of racial tensions and the elves don't have any elven guardsman to resort to. We have only seen one so far but that is a step foward rather than just close themselves in a corner of the city complaining how mean humans are.esper wrote...
Even if the law gave elves equal rights to everyone else, they are below commoner and poor human in social rank, which means that any law meant to proctect them properly wouldn't be enforced unless it fitted the mood of whoever is in charge of the guards.
Now, granted, this is the kind of thing I'd love to do, but I can't, because of the stupid PC race restrictions.
Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 novembre 2012 - 09:54 .
#58
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 01:10
Plaintiff
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Irrelevent. The incident I'm referring to occurs prior to that. What Velanna did later, for different reasons, is of no consequence.General User wrote...
That has got to be one of the worst examples I've ever seen. Velanna went on a murderous killing spree targeting innocent people.
Bull. Humans don't know anything about the Dalish, much less the temprements of the individuals in the clan. With logic like that, I can justify crossing the street every time I see a black man.Humans attack Dalish clans like Velanna's when they TRESPASS on human lands, specifically because those clans contain people like Velanna. And they are right to do so. Velanna is very the cover girl for why Dalish (and mages too btw) should not be trusted.
How are the Dalish "trespassing"? It was their land first. Humans are the trespassers, they've been trespassing for millenia. If trespass is justification for violence, then Velanna is totally right to kill any merchants that she comes across, purely on that basis.
But Maric was known to mingle with commonors and Cailan is said to have the same rapport.That's not exactly unusual. A great many things about the lives of the lower classes tend to shock those of more elevated upbringing. Are you by chance familiar with the life of Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha?
Oh my god. And I suppose rape victims asked for it by walking down that dark alleyway. If the nobles weren't so ignorant and racist, they wouldn't have accepted Loghain's bull**** 'plague' excuse in the first place.I take it that you missed the part where revealing Loghain's deal with those slavers/mages brought condemnation from the rest of the Landsmeet. Besides selling elves to the Tevinter mages was easy to conceal in no small part because the elves of the Alienage choose to live as a distinct and segregated community rather than integrating more fully into Ferelden society. What you had there was, in no small part, an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences in action I'm afraid.
Chinese people live in Chinatown, so I guess they bring it on themselves if someone decides to wall off the area and purge it with fire.
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They don't have a lord. Nobody speaks for them. Human nobles have human interests.Ditto everyone else. Or, more accurately, elves have just as much recourse when such events occur, ie they can appeal to their lord.
Except we've seen several examples of humans rising from low birth to positions of power, and none for elves.Ditto everyone else again.
Oh please. This is bigotry of the most insidious kind. "Better themselves"? What the **** does that even mean? There are no opportunities open to them through which such "betterment" might be acheived, and they shouldn't have to conform to human standards anyway. "Ethnic minorities wouldn't be treated so badly if they just behave 'properly', like white people do.", "Homosexuals would have equal rights if they just stopped their sexually deviant behaviour".I'm insisting that the elves at least attempt to climb the ladder not be just content to wallow in the mud at the bottom until their "betters" see fit to reach down and pull them up. Because until elves make some sort of attempt to better themselves it really isn't worth putting anyone else out of sorts in order to help them.
Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 novembre 2012 - 01:14 .
#59
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 04:09
Josielyn
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Ok, so Merrill rallies the City Elves from the alienage in Kirkwall, and she brings them to Arlathven (meeting of the Dalish clans) and together they give humans an ultimatum: equal rights, or get buried alive in large quantities of Halla poo.
#60
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 05:18
Sharn01
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I doubt they will let you make any significant benefit in society to help the elves get treated better.
Fear not though, I am sure you will have the option to slaughter a clan of a couple hundred Dalish elves down to every last man, woman and child, or to sell a bunch of city elves into slavery, or both.
Fear not though, I am sure you will have the option to slaughter a clan of a couple hundred Dalish elves down to every last man, woman and child, or to sell a bunch of city elves into slavery, or both.
#61
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 03:22
nightscrawl
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While you do raise a good point, don't you think that this greatly reduces the importance of roleplay? I the player might consider elf suppression or the dwarven caste system (another good example), to be a terrible thing. But I might have a bigoted human character that doesn't give a fig about the comfort of a few elves, or a dwarven noble that believes the caste system is just the way things are and the way they should stay.Plaintiff wrote...
I think the elf issue is less interesting to most people because it's more clear-cut. There have been discussions on Elven oppression, but they don't last long because you're not going to find anybody willing to argue that their oppression is morally right or somehow necessary.
Without getting into details, because that's not the topic of this thread, both sides of the mage conflict have at least one good point each. As you yourself said, some people find the mage situation unjust, but others don't.
When it comes to the elf situation, or even the caste system of the dwarves, everyone simply agrees that these are terrible things.
When discussing mage issues, many people bring their character into it: my blood mage wouldn't do this or that, my templar thinks this, and so on. Why should it be different for elves?
While I really enjoy DA2, this is the best summary of the game I've ever seen. Sure, there's a scene where Varric asks you what you plan to do now that you've moved up in the world, and you can respond with specific answers, but you can't really mold the game around any of those things.Dorrieb wrote...
After striking it rich in Act 1 Hawke didn't seem to have any agenda of her own, being just the go-to person for everyone else's troubles for no particular reason.
Modifié par nightscrawl, 28 novembre 2012 - 03:41 .
#62
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 03:22
General User
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[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
[quote]General User wrote...
That has got to be one of the worst examples I've ever seen. Velanna went on a murderous killing spree targeting innocent people.[/quote]Irrelevent. The incident I'm referring to occurs prior to that. What Velanna did later, for different reasons, is of no consequence. [/quote]I'm fairly certain the families of all the innocent people Velanna murdered would feel differently.
[quote] [quote]Humans attack Dalish clans like Velanna's when they TRESPASS on human lands, specifically because those clans contain people like Velanna. And they are right to do so. Velanna is very the cover girl for why Dalish (and mages too btw) should not be trusted. [/quote]Bull. Humans don't know anything about the Dalish, much less the temprements of the individuals in the clan. With logic like that, I can justify crossing the street every time I see a black man. [/quote]Do everyone (especially yourself) a favor and knock off the RW analogies. They're inflammatory and insulting, yours in particular because they're completely inaccurate as well.
Without invitation or permission, the Dalish invade and/or pass through the property of others. They are heavily armed, and overtly and unapologetically hostile towards any humans they encounter. The rest of Thedas treats the Dalish like a menace because that's exactly how the Dalish deliberatly act.
The Dalish are the best example of how the elves themselves need to change before the lot of the elves in Thedas will ever "improve." The Dalish blame the "shemlen" for the state of their culture when, in reality, the Dalish are (and always have been) their own worst enemies.
[quote]How are the Dalish "trespassing"?[/quote]They enter the property of others without permission. Hence: trespassing.
[quote]It was their land first. [/quote]Not only is that untrue on a number of levels, but completely irrelevant, and more than a little ridiculous as well. The Dalish of 9:30 Dragon have no more claim to any part of Thedas which ancient elves may or may not have lived on than modern day Italy has to any of the lands that were once part of the Roman Empire.
[quote]Humans are the trespassers, they've been trespassing for millenia. [/quote]Property rights don't work that way. It is not only idiotic, but immoral to suggest that they might. I can't go back to Ireland and hassle whoever happens to be living on my great-great-great-great-grandfather's former land just because centuries ago the English gave him the boot.
[quote]If trespass is justification for violence, then Velanna is totally right to kill any merchants that she comes across, purely on that basis.[/quote]Are you really the sort of person who needs it explained to them why it's not ok to kill innocent people of another race just because your race and theirs haven't really managed to get along over the centuries?
[quote] [quote]That's not exactly unusual. A great many things about the lives of the lower classes tend to shock those of more elevated upbringing. Are you by chance familiar with the life of Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha? [/quote]But Maric was known to mingle with commonors and Cailan is said to have the same rapport. [/quote]There's a world of difference between a royal "mingling with commoners" or having a "rapport" and being exposed to the full reality of the lives of the lower classes.
[quote] [quote]I take it that you missed the part where revealing Loghain's deal with those slavers/mages brought condemnation from the rest of the Landsmeet. Besides selling elves to the Tevinter mages was easy to conceal in no small part because the elves of the Alienage choose to live as a distinct and segregated community rather than integrating more fully into Ferelden society. What you had there was, in no small part, an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences in action I'm afraid. [/quote]Oh my god. And I suppose rape victims asked for it by walking down that dark alleyway. If the nobles weren't so ignorant and racist, they wouldn't have accepted Loghain's bull**** 'plague' excuse in the first place.
Chinese people live in Chinatown, so I guess they bring it on themselves if someone decides to wall off the area and purge it with fire. [/quote]Once again, your pointlessly inflammatory RW analogies are neither necessary nor accurate.
You see, in a alienage, it is in fact the elves themselves who have walled themselves off from the wider city. It's quite a simple concept really, when a group isolates itself from the larger community it is only to be expected that the isolated group should be deprived of the positive aspects of community membership as well as the negative ones.
[quote] [quote]Ditto everyone else. Or, more accurately, elves have just as much recourse when such events occur, ie they can appeal to their lord. [/quote]They don't have a lord. Nobody speaks for them. Human nobles have human interests. [/quote]Elves have lords. For the elves of the Denerim alienage, their lord would have been the Arl of Denerim.
[quote]Except we've seen several examples of humans rising from low birth to positions of power, and none for elves. [/quote]Because elves are more disadvantaged. If elves are ever to rise "from low birth to positions of power" then they will have to overcome those disadvantages. And no one can do it for them, they have to do it themselves.
[quote] [quote]I'm insisting that the elves at least attempt to climb the ladder not be just content to wallow in the mud at the bottom until their "betters" see fit to reach down and pull them up. Because until elves make some sort of attempt to better themselves it really isn't worth putting anyone else out of sorts in order to help them.
[/quote]Oh please. This is bigotry of the most insidious kind. [/quote]Sorry, but I'm just speaking the truth. Unpalatable though it may be.
[quote]"Better themselves"? What the **** does that even mean? [/quote]Mainly that elves should stop blaming others for their problems and take responsibility for improving their own lives.
[quote]There are no opportunities open to them through which such "betterment" might be acheived, and they shouldn't have to conform to human standards anyway. [/quote]That knife cuts both ways. If elves are under no obligation to conform to the standards and/or adhere to the ideals of human society then humans are under no obligation to put themselves out to help improve the elven society.
[quote]"Ethnic minorities wouldn't be treated so badly if they just behave 'properly', like white people do.", "Homosexuals would have equal rights if they just stopped their sexually deviant behaviour".[/quote]You seem to have a habit of conflating the DA elves with RW minority groups. You should break that habit.
[quote]General User wrote...
That has got to be one of the worst examples I've ever seen. Velanna went on a murderous killing spree targeting innocent people.[/quote]Irrelevent. The incident I'm referring to occurs prior to that. What Velanna did later, for different reasons, is of no consequence. [/quote]I'm fairly certain the families of all the innocent people Velanna murdered would feel differently.
[quote] [quote]Humans attack Dalish clans like Velanna's when they TRESPASS on human lands, specifically because those clans contain people like Velanna. And they are right to do so. Velanna is very the cover girl for why Dalish (and mages too btw) should not be trusted. [/quote]Bull. Humans don't know anything about the Dalish, much less the temprements of the individuals in the clan. With logic like that, I can justify crossing the street every time I see a black man. [/quote]Do everyone (especially yourself) a favor and knock off the RW analogies. They're inflammatory and insulting, yours in particular because they're completely inaccurate as well.
Without invitation or permission, the Dalish invade and/or pass through the property of others. They are heavily armed, and overtly and unapologetically hostile towards any humans they encounter. The rest of Thedas treats the Dalish like a menace because that's exactly how the Dalish deliberatly act.
The Dalish are the best example of how the elves themselves need to change before the lot of the elves in Thedas will ever "improve." The Dalish blame the "shemlen" for the state of their culture when, in reality, the Dalish are (and always have been) their own worst enemies.
[quote]How are the Dalish "trespassing"?[/quote]They enter the property of others without permission. Hence: trespassing.
[quote]It was their land first. [/quote]Not only is that untrue on a number of levels, but completely irrelevant, and more than a little ridiculous as well. The Dalish of 9:30 Dragon have no more claim to any part of Thedas which ancient elves may or may not have lived on than modern day Italy has to any of the lands that were once part of the Roman Empire.
[quote]Humans are the trespassers, they've been trespassing for millenia. [/quote]Property rights don't work that way. It is not only idiotic, but immoral to suggest that they might. I can't go back to Ireland and hassle whoever happens to be living on my great-great-great-great-grandfather's former land just because centuries ago the English gave him the boot.
[quote]If trespass is justification for violence, then Velanna is totally right to kill any merchants that she comes across, purely on that basis.[/quote]Are you really the sort of person who needs it explained to them why it's not ok to kill innocent people of another race just because your race and theirs haven't really managed to get along over the centuries?
[quote] [quote]That's not exactly unusual. A great many things about the lives of the lower classes tend to shock those of more elevated upbringing. Are you by chance familiar with the life of Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha? [/quote]But Maric was known to mingle with commonors and Cailan is said to have the same rapport. [/quote]There's a world of difference between a royal "mingling with commoners" or having a "rapport" and being exposed to the full reality of the lives of the lower classes.
[quote] [quote]I take it that you missed the part where revealing Loghain's deal with those slavers/mages brought condemnation from the rest of the Landsmeet. Besides selling elves to the Tevinter mages was easy to conceal in no small part because the elves of the Alienage choose to live as a distinct and segregated community rather than integrating more fully into Ferelden society. What you had there was, in no small part, an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences in action I'm afraid. [/quote]Oh my god. And I suppose rape victims asked for it by walking down that dark alleyway. If the nobles weren't so ignorant and racist, they wouldn't have accepted Loghain's bull**** 'plague' excuse in the first place.
Chinese people live in Chinatown, so I guess they bring it on themselves if someone decides to wall off the area and purge it with fire. [/quote]Once again, your pointlessly inflammatory RW analogies are neither necessary nor accurate.
You see, in a alienage, it is in fact the elves themselves who have walled themselves off from the wider city. It's quite a simple concept really, when a group isolates itself from the larger community it is only to be expected that the isolated group should be deprived of the positive aspects of community membership as well as the negative ones.
[quote] [quote]Ditto everyone else. Or, more accurately, elves have just as much recourse when such events occur, ie they can appeal to their lord. [/quote]They don't have a lord. Nobody speaks for them. Human nobles have human interests. [/quote]Elves have lords. For the elves of the Denerim alienage, their lord would have been the Arl of Denerim.
[quote]Except we've seen several examples of humans rising from low birth to positions of power, and none for elves. [/quote]Because elves are more disadvantaged. If elves are ever to rise "from low birth to positions of power" then they will have to overcome those disadvantages. And no one can do it for them, they have to do it themselves.
[quote] [quote]I'm insisting that the elves at least attempt to climb the ladder not be just content to wallow in the mud at the bottom until their "betters" see fit to reach down and pull them up. Because until elves make some sort of attempt to better themselves it really isn't worth putting anyone else out of sorts in order to help them.
[/quote]Oh please. This is bigotry of the most insidious kind. [/quote]Sorry, but I'm just speaking the truth. Unpalatable though it may be.
[quote]"Better themselves"? What the **** does that even mean? [/quote]Mainly that elves should stop blaming others for their problems and take responsibility for improving their own lives.
[quote]There are no opportunities open to them through which such "betterment" might be acheived, and they shouldn't have to conform to human standards anyway. [/quote]That knife cuts both ways. If elves are under no obligation to conform to the standards and/or adhere to the ideals of human society then humans are under no obligation to put themselves out to help improve the elven society.
[quote]"Ethnic minorities wouldn't be treated so badly if they just behave 'properly', like white people do.", "Homosexuals would have equal rights if they just stopped their sexually deviant behaviour".[/quote]You seem to have a habit of conflating the DA elves with RW minority groups. You should break that habit.
Modifié par General User, 28 novembre 2012 - 07:35 .
#63
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 03:24
Pheonix57
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I would like a mission, or DLC, that allows us to unearth old Dalish secrets, then maybe we could decide what to do with the things we find.
#64
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 03:50
Huntress
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ShadowLordXII wrote...
I'm not talking about just giving the Dalish a token territory which they'll somehow ending losing or making an elf a bann/arl of a single city.
I say that the next game should have an option to indefinately improve the lives of City Elves in all of Thedas.
A huge deal is made about mage freedom when the lot of the city elves are honestly worse off and for a much longer period of time. It's so bad that even the dalish haven't fully regained their culture as a result of Tevinter and Chantry oppression, subjegation and forced conversion of many elves at the cost of their way of life.
I mean...the Chantry pretty much encourages and endorses the discrimination and oppression of elves in Thedas. If you're Dalish then you're hunted as a heathen criminal and if you're a City elf then you can't have a decent job, live your life in poverty and misery, can't buy a weapon to so much as defend yourself even if you saved up money and justice pretty much laughs in your face and then kicks you aside without so much as a backward's glance.
What if DA3 introduces a situation that could turn this around. Maybe the elves in Orlais stage a rebellion while the country is in the middle of a national civil war and the Mage-Templar War. One of your companions could even be a member of this rebellion and ask for your help.
Let's say that an elven blood mage discovers how to restrengthen elven blood so that they'll eventually regain the indefinate lifespan of pre-slavery elves, but doing so will require the sacrifice of an entire barracks filled with templars due to the lyrium in their blood.
Or...the rebellion is brought to the Divine's attention and with your persuasion (Polite or forceful), the Divine can decree full rights to elves in all nations, form a peace treaty with the dalish and/or return the Dales in exchange for help in the Orlesian Civil War or the Mages-Templars Conflict.
Sure, racism would still be around, but the de jure portion would be absent. Elves could form self-sufficient communities that can contribute to trade, boost military numbers by enlisting into the army, and so on.
It just feels strange to fight for mage freedom and completely overlook elves.
You can't do that in Thedas, not yet anyway, why? because it will happen the same thing as before, the chantry will want and by Their Maker right wants everyone to believe in their god, the dalish will not and they will be totally destroyed and sold to slavery once more... err.. continue? and of course doing another crusade march against the elves will unite the Humans of Thedas (with their servants) one more time agaisnt the evil dalish and their false God's..
The Dalish leaders and first's will be sent to circles of magi or killed.. remember Dalish leaders are Mages and we know how the Chantry will want to keep them safe..
Modifié par Huntress, 28 novembre 2012 - 03:52 .
#65
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 04:25
Todd23
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Every time we get one of those options it makes the elve's lives worse in the long run.
#66
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 05:52
BouncyFrag
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Not really. I'd rather explore fresh, new content. Its just a video game, so I think the elves will be okay.
Modifié par BouncyFrag, 28 novembre 2012 - 05:52 .
#67
Posté 28 novembre 2012 - 10:30
Todd23
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... Just a video game? Get out.BouncyFrag wrote...
Not really. I'd rather explore fresh, new content. Its just a video game, so I think the elves will be okay.
#68
Posté 29 novembre 2012 - 12:08
MilaBanilla
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I wish we could have the option to support/ help the elves lifestyles and their plight. I want them to be treated a bit a better and not live in poverty/homeless or treated like a sack of meat to be used and disposed. Human commoners have it bad as well but not nearly as worse the elves.
But I'm worried that Elves will just treat our PC(if they involve themselves) like crap or be very suspicious since we are playing a human...
IIRC, Shianni respond to my human mage harshly when I wanted to help them. Something like "What's wrong Shem? Got bored and here to see the elves die?" (she will say something else about Soris and freeing him)
I felt horrible being human after that XD One reason why I always play elf
But I'm worried that Elves will just treat our PC(if they involve themselves) like crap or be very suspicious since we are playing a human...
IIRC, Shianni respond to my human mage harshly when I wanted to help them. Something like "What's wrong Shem? Got bored and here to see the elves die?" (she will say something else about Soris and freeing him)
I felt horrible being human after that XD One reason why I always play elf
#69
Posté 29 novembre 2012 - 12:44
thats1evildude
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The best hope for the elves is to instigate a successful slave rebellion in the Tevinter Imperium and establish it as an elven state.
#70
Posté 29 novembre 2012 - 03:35
Xilizhra
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Well, humans are the ones who destroyed elven society to begin with and are constantly acting to keep them squashed, officially or otherwise, so I would say they do have a responsibility, yes. And if we see city elves do try to improve their lot, at the end of Origins? The elven bann is either murdered or driven off, unless they are the Warden themselves and hence capable of outmurdering any angry mob. This is why they don't do it more often.That knife cuts both ways. If elves are under no obligation to conform to the standards and/or adhere to the ideals of human society then humans are under no obligation to put themselves out to help improve the elven society.
#71
Posté 29 novembre 2012 - 03:55
silentassassin264
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Dealing with elf rights while being unable to play as a Dalish again would feel hollow.
#72
Posté 29 novembre 2012 - 05:02
SgtElias
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ShadowLordXII wrote...
It just feels strange to fight for mage freedom and completely overlook elves.
I agree completely. I'm pretty vehemently pro-mage, and really enjoy that particular plot thread. And though I never much enjoyed playing an elf (for some reason, I preferred humans and dwarves), I'd leap at the chance to improve and defend their quality of life at the first chance I got.
In fact, if Bioware wanted to release an entire game that revolved around nothing other than running around Thedas and ending oppression of every sort, I'd be perfectly content.
#73
Posté 29 novembre 2012 - 07:32
Chiramu
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The elves plight is similar to the old Jewish plight. They won't get their own homeland until World War 2 in Thedas .
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#74
Posté 29 novembre 2012 - 09:18
Dorrieb
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nightscrawl wrote...
While I really enjoy DA2, this is the best summary of the game I've ever seen. Sure, there's a scene where Varric asks you what you plan to do now that you've moved up in the world, and you can respond with specific answers, but you can't really mold the game around any of those things.Dorrieb wrote...
After striking it rich in Act 1 Hawke didn't seem to have any agenda of her own, being just the go-to person for everyone else's troubles for no particular reason.
'Okay Varric, here's the plan. With Aveline as captain of the guard we take out the Carta, except that we secretly hand over their business to Athenril. With Athenril in place, you take over as leader of the merchants. Meanwhile, Bethany organises the mages and Mum networks with the nobles. Before Meredith even knows what's going on this city will be ours! Bwa-hahah!'
Or we could just run around doing everyone's chores for them, that works too. : )
#75
Posté 29 novembre 2012 - 09:36
Dorrieb
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General User wrote...
Without invitation or permission, the Dalish invade and/or pass through the property of others. They are heavily armed, and overtly and unapologetically hostile towards any humans they encounter. The rest of Thedas treats the Dalish like a menace because that's exactly how the Dalish deliberatly act.
I've no great love for the Dalish, but that's a bit simple-minded, don't you think? What are they supposed to do, go home? Oh, wait. The 'property rights' in question are granted by human authority, and the whole point of the Dalish is that they don't recognise the validity of human authority. That land is human property according to human law, not elvish law.
General User wrote...
You see, in a alienage, it is in fact the elves themselves who have walled themselves off from the wider city. It's quite a simple concept really, when a group isolates itself from the larger community it is only to be expected that the isolated group should be deprived of the positive aspects of community membership as well as the negative ones.
It is made explicitly clear that elves who try to leave the alienage and move in with the human population tend to find their homes burned down.
