298 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Dorrieb wrote...
I've no great love for the Dalish, but that's a bit simple-minded, don't you think? What are they supposed to do, go home? Oh, wait. The 'property rights' in question are granted by human authority, and the whole point of the Dalish is that they don't recognise the validity of human authority. That land is human property according to human law, not elvish law.

My suggestion is to stop leaving in the past. Elves are no longer the sole race on Thedas and isolationism is not going to work. They either learn to coexist with humans or they should set off from Thedas and try to find a new homeland.
That is what caused the fall of the Dales. The elves refused to even attempt to cultivate good relations with their human neighbours which lead to the increase of tensions and the sole elven nation in the world finding itself surrounded by enemies.

It is made explicitly clear that elves who try to leave the alienage and move in with the human population tend to find their homes burned down.

That is a sad true but looking with pity and disgust at those who attempted to improve their lives is not going to change anything. Ever.
What the elves need to do is insist. Rather than one or two buying a house outside of the alienage, they need to make a collective effort to move the greatest number of elves possible into the human population. Then they once again need to protect each other. Defend those houses from racist humans and, above everything, to not go pick a fight. Reduce elven violence against humans and they earn sympathy. And then they need to follow Kirkwall's example and have elves join the city guard.
It's not going to be easy and it's not going to happen overnight but isolating themselves in their squalor filled corner tending to a tree that represents their lost glory is not going to improve their lives.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, humans are the ones who destroyed elven society to begin with and are constantly acting to keep them squashed, officially or otherwise, so I would say they do have a responsibility, yes. And if we see city elves do try to improve their lot, at the end of Origins? The elven bann is either murdered or driven off, unless they are the Warden themselves and hence capable of outmurdering any angry mob. This is why they don't do it more often.

Humans have no responsability towards the elves anymore the elves have a responsability towards Orlais.
Shianni is murdered by a single human bigot which sparks a riot in the Alienage which causes the city guard to crack down on them. And what were they expecting? Roses? Maybe they should have waited for Alistair/Anora to deliver justice. If nothing happens, kill him in his sleep. And Soris is driven off by the elves because he married a human proving once again that bigotry is not exclusive to one race.
Pointing to violence and saying that is why they shouldn't try is just silly. There will always be violence but the world doesn't reward sloth.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 novembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, humans are the ones who destroyed elven society to begin with and are constantly acting to keep them squashed, officially or otherwise, so I would say they do have a responsibility, yes.

Trying lay some sort of "racial guilt clause" at the feet of all humans in Thedas because the elves have lost a series of conflicts with various human powers (many of which the elves themselves started) is really quite perverse.  No.  The elves have the exclusive responsibility for the elves, they always have and they always will.

And if we see city elves do try to improve their lot, at the end of Origins? The elven bann is either murdered or driven off, unless they are the Warden themselves and hence capable of outmurdering any angry mob. This is why they don't do it more often.

What I saw at the end of Origins was a clearly well-intentioned human lord make an attempt to extend rights, honors, and privileges to a group of his subjects at a time when both they, and the rest of the Ferelden, simply were not ready for it.

Dorrieb wrote...

I've no great love for the Dalish, but that's a bit simple-minded, don't you think? What are they supposed to do, go home? Oh, wait. The 'property rights' in question are granted by human authority, and the whole point of the Dalish is that they don't recognise the validity of human authority.  That land is human property according to human law, not elvish law.

Only it's not "human authority" that the Dalish flaunt, but rather the rightful authorities of the very lands themselves.  The Dalish act as if they have the right to disregard the laws of the countries they pass through simply because those countries are ruled by humans.  

In other words, when in Ferelden (for example) it is the laws, customs, and traditions of Ferelden that take precedence.   Thus, in Ferelden, "minority/foreigner group 'X'"  (be they Dalish, Chasind, or Orlesian) doesn't get to simply live by their own rules (or, rather they DO get to live by their own rules until/except in those cases were there's a conflict, then local rule takes over).

It is made explicitly clear that elves who try to leave the alienage and move in with the human population tend to find their homes burned down.

Never said it would be easy.   But the elves being actively complicit in ghettoizing themselves, while nursing grudges left over from conflicts that they themselves have long since forgotten, is not an answer to anything.

Modifié par General User, 30 novembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[Xilizhra]

Trying lay some sort of "racial guilt clause" at the feet of all humans in Thedas because the elves have lost a series of conflicts with various human powers (many of which the elves themselves started) is really quite perverse. No. The elves have the exclusive responsibility for the elves, they always have and they always will.

In that case, fine. I'll take that responsibility upon myself the next time I get to play one, and let any human who stands in my way tremble.

Shianni is murdered by a single human bigot which sparks a riot in the Alienage which causes the city guard to crack down on them. And what were they expecting? Roses? Maybe they should have waited for Alistair/Anora to deliver justice. If nothing happens, kill him in his sleep. And Soris is driven off by the elves because he married a human proving once again that bigotry is not exclusive to one race.

You're ignoring the unnamed potential bann who gets outright killed by a mob. And the violence of one murderous bigot is no less lethal than the violence of several. I admit, I wonder how many the Warden would get to kill during the human riot...

[Dorrieb]

General User wrote...
Only it's not "human authority" that the Dalish flaunt, but rather the rightful authorities of the very lands themselves.  The Dalish act as if they have the right to disregard the laws of the countries they pass through simply because those countries are ruled by humans.

You talk as if those countries were established by natural law or divine will, but they are not. Those are human countries established by human law. That was nicely illustrated when Loghain's envoy was at Orzammar's door demanding that the dwarves recognise the 'rightful' authority of Ferelden and the guard told him to take a hike, as his so-called authority meant nothing to them. Apparently the dwarves don't recognise 'the rightful authority of the very land itself'  either. The difference is that dwarves stay underground, and also that they can back it up if need be, while the elves are weak.

Anyway, you can plant a flag and declare that the land is yours and that everyone must obey your laws, but that doesn't make it 'rightful'.

[General User]

Dorrieb wrote...

You talk as if those countries were established by natural law or divine will, but they are not. Those are human countries established by human law.

What are you talking about?   Those nations were verily built by their respective peoples.  They sowed and harvested the crops, built the villages and craved the paths for trade, felled the timber and quarried the stone, while defending it all from invaders and raiders, and (oh, by the way) raised and buried generation after generation upon that land.  The nations of Thedas are very much established by natural law.

That was nicely illustrated when Loghain's envoy was at Orzammar's door demanding that the dwarves recognise the 'rightful' authority of Ferelden and the guard told him to take a hike, as his so-called authority meant nothing to them.  Apparently the dwarves don't recognise 'the rightful authority of the very land itself'  either.

Actually that little episode nicely demonstrates my point for me.  First you must understand that, very much like any other nation in Thedas, Orzammar is a sovereign and independent state.  Thus in Orzammar, it is Orzammar's laws, customs, and traditions that take precedence.  Just as in Ferelden it would be Ferelden's, or in Nevarra it would be Nevarra's, etc.

And, just as Loghain's envoy was forced to accept the rulings of the dwarves no matter how little he might have liked it, so to should the Dalish accept the rulings of the nations they pass through.

The difference is that dwarves stay underground, and also that they can back it up if need be, while the elves are weak.

The practical realities of the military situation are only part of the equation, major differences between the Dalish elves and the dwarves of Orzammar also lie in that Orzammar is a long standing independent state that cultivates positive relations with other peoples and powers.  While the Dalish do not have the first and deliberately choose not to do the second.

Anyway, you can plant a flag and declare that the land is yours and that everyone must obey your laws, but that doesn't make it 'rightful'.

What if hundreds or even thousands of years of your ancestors have lived, worked, died, and been buried on the land?  What if the villages, farms, workshops, canals, and harbors were built by your people.  What if it was the blood of your people that was shed to keep the land free of foreign invaders, tribal raiders, qunari, and darkspawn?  Can you declare that it's yours then and that everyone must obey your laws?

Modifié par General User, 30 novembre 2012 - 12:57 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
You're ignoring the unnamed potential bann who gets outright killed by a mob. And the violence of one murderous bigot is no less lethal than the violence of several. I admit, I wonder how many the Warden would get to kill during the human riot...

Not ignoring, I just did not have anything to say.
And answering with a riot to a murder caused by a single human rather than await justice from the crown or killing the murderer in his sleep is a terribly stupid move that will only lead to elves being seen as brutish savages.

[Xilizhra]

Not ignoring, I just did not have anything to say.
And answering with a riot to a murder caused by a single human rather than await justice from the crown or killing the murderer in his sleep is a terribly stupid move that will only lead to elves being seen as brutish savages.

Easy enough to say when you don't know all the circumstances behind it.

What if hundreds or even thousands of years of your ancestors have lived, worked, died, and been buried on the land? What if the villages, farms, workshops, canals, and harbors were built by your people. What if it was the blood of your people that was shed to keep the land free of foreign invaders, tribal raiders, qunari, and darkspawn? Can you declare that it's yours then and that everyone must obey your laws?

Even if all of that is there, unjust laws are unjust laws.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Easy enough to say when you don't know all the circumstances behind it.

Just as you don't know the circunstances behind any human riot.

Even if all of that is there, unjust laws are unjust laws.

What unjust law? "Armed groups of dozens of stateless people can't cross borders whenever they please and live off the land for as long as they please while stopping true citizens from freely moving inside their own country"? That "unjust" law?

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 novembre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Xilizhra]

Just as you don't know the circunstances behind any human riot.

At least I know the outcome of abject failure.

What unjust law? "Armed groups of dozens of stateless people can't cross borders whenever they please and live off the land for as long as they please while stopping true citizens from freely moving inside their own country"? That "unjust" law?

An arrangement of necessity until Arlathan can be rebuilt.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
At least I know the outcome of abject failure.

A characteristic you share with the elves. They are quite proficient at it.

An arrangement of necessity until Arlathan can be rebuilt.

So you agree it's not an unjust law.

[Xilizhra]

A characteristic you share with the elves. They are quite proficient at it.

Their time will come. And I've never picked a losing side in-game yet.

So you agree it's not an unjust law.

I don't believe that the laws of human nations truly apply to the Dalish. Especially not for templar-based idiocy.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't believe that the laws of human nations truly apply to the Dalish. Especially not for templar-based idiocy.

The templars are entirely irrelevant to this issue. The laws of a nation apply to any and all within its borders, regardless of race.

[brushyourteeth]

Dorrieb wrote...

General User wrote...
Only it's not "human authority" that the Dalish flaunt, but rather the rightful authorities of the very lands themselves.  The Dalish act as if they have the right to disregard the laws of the countries they pass through simply because those countries are ruled by humans.

You talk as if those countries were established by natural law or divine will, but they are not. Those are human countries established by human law. That was nicely illustrated when Loghain's envoy was at Orzammar's door demanding that the dwarves recognise the 'rightful' authority of Ferelden and the guard told him to take a hike, as his so-called authority meant nothing to them. Apparently the dwarves don't recognise 'the rightful authority of the very land itself'  either. The difference is that dwarves stay underground, and also that they can back it up if need be, while the elves are weak.

Anyway, you can plant a flag and declare that the land is yours and that everyone must obey your laws, but that doesn't make it 'rightful'.

Well said!

[Gyrefalcon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Why would you? Why would anybody bother with that, ever??? If you are human, you are raised by Chantry, if you are not - you have no say in it. So giving this option makes absolutely no sense. Even if you sympathise with them, you would never gave them your own land.

Not all humans are raised by the Chantry. And it's entirely possible that you have more land than you really need to keep.

Especially if you are from any of the areas that have been devistated by the Blight.  Frankly, I am wondering if the human population on Thedas is about ready to crash.  Look at the Ferelden refugees that took up working in the mines, looks like they ALL died either from spiders or dragons.  The other refugees apparently decided to commit body and soul to crime on the streets as you kill off a ton of dog lords.  In fact, EVERY faction seems to have loyal-to-the-death members.  I'd like to see some enemies break and run. 

But I digress.  Those few who do remain may not face a Blight but a lone farmer against a scouting squad of Darkspawn has little chance.  A farmer who gives a portion of his lands to the elves has their protection and support.  It really makes more sense to band together when there are fewer of you.

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't believe that the laws of human nations truly apply to the Dalish. Especially not for templar-based idiocy.

The templars are entirely irrelevant to this issue. The laws of a nation apply to any and all within its borders, regardless of race.

The Dalish don't have to obey human laws because they're technically participating in a very long tactical retreat against Orlais. Eventually they're planning to regroup and retake their occupied land.

I'm not sure on all the legal niceties of the situation, but they generally camp in out-of-the-way places and don't go out of their way to bother people, so I tend to take a dim view of those who don't return the favor.

[mousestalker]

Job opportunities outside of the baking industry, toymaking, cobbling and seasonal employment would make a huge difference. Being fully employed all year 'round would engender a great deal more economic stability.

[Dorrieb]

General User wrote...
Actually that little episode nicely demonstrates my point for me.  First you must understand that, very much like any other nation in Thedas, Orzammar is a sovereign and independent state.  Thus in Orzammar, it is Orzammar's laws, customs, and traditions that take precedence.  Just as in Ferelden it would be Ferelden's, or in Nevarra it would be Nevarra's, etc.

Actually you are wrong. Ferelden does not recognise Orzammar as a sovereign and independent state. In Orzammar's view, yes, they are. In Ferelden's view, however, they are within Ferelden and subject to the king's authority. Which one is right? It depends on whose laws you choose as your frame of reference. The kings of Ferelden  have had the rare good sense not to press the matter with the dwarves, and Orzammar in turn chooses to ignore Ferelden's claim, but there is a conflict of views there. You seem to regard laws as absolute, rather than subjective to who makes them.

General User wrote...
What if hundreds or even thousands of years of your ancestors have lived, worked, died, and been buried on the land?  What if the villages, farms, workshops, canals, and harbors were built by your people.  What if it was the blood of your people that was shed to keep the land free of foreign invaders, tribal raiders, qunari, and darkspawn?  Can you declare that it's yours then and that everyone must obey your laws?

Well what if it were the Qunari? Suppose the Qunari conquer Thedas (which could easily happen), and all humans have to convert to the Qun or be outlawed. Some humans choose to remain free, refuse to accept the Qun, and become wandering nomads, hunted and harassed everywhere they go. How many hundreds, or even thousands of years would have to pass before you consider that unacceptable?

Modifié par Dorrieb, 30 novembre 2012 - 08:31 .

[General User]

Dorrieb wrote...

General User wrote...
Actually that little episode nicely demonstrates my point for me.  First you must understand that, very much like any other nation in Thedas, Orzammar is a sovereign and independent state.  Thus in Orzammar, it is Orzammar's laws, customs, and traditions that take precedence.  Just as in Ferelden it would be Ferelden's, or in Nevarra it would be Nevarra's, etc.

Actually you are wrong. Ferelden does not recognise Orzammar as a sovereign and independent state. In Orzammar's view, yes, they are. In Ferelden's view, however, they are within Ferelden and subject to the king's authority. Which one is right? It depends on whose laws you choose as your frame of reference. The kings of Ferelden  have had the rare good sense not to press the matter with the dwarves, and Orzammar in turn chooses to ignore Ferelden's claim, but there is a conflict of views there.

You appear to be reading far, far, far too much into a single agitated utterance by a that Loghain envoy.  One would have to be positively delusional to seriously claim that Orzammar is a territory of the Ferelden Crown.  The King of Ferelden exercises zero effective control over Orzammar. 

You seem to regard laws as absolute, rather than subjective to who makes them.

If by "absolute" you mean that I hold that individuals or groups have no right to decide when they do and do not have to obey laws, then yes, laws are quite "absolute." 

When in someone else's country, as the Dalish perpetually are, they have every obligation to obey the local laws and respect the local customs.  If they can't or won't do that, they can leave. 

What if hundreds or even thousands of years of your ancestors have lived, worked, died, and been buried on the land?  What if the villages, farms, workshops, canals, and harbors were built by your people.  What if it was the blood of your people that was shed to keep the land free of foreign invaders, tribal raiders, qunari, and darkspawn?  Can you declare that it's yours then and that everyone must obey your laws?

Well what if it were the Qunari? Suppose the Qunari conquer Thedas (which could easily happen), and all humans have to convert to the Qun or be outlawed. Some humans choose to remain free, refuse to accept the Qun, and become wandering nomads, hunted and harassed everywhere they go. How many hundreds, or even thousands of years would have to pass before you consider that unacceptable?

I have no idea what you're even asking.  So if you'd like me to attempt to answer your hypothetical, I'll need you to clarify and/or rephrase.  Also (in the interest of politeness, if nothing else) I'd appreciate if you answered mine as well.

Modifié par General User, 30 novembre 2012 - 09:50 .

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
The Dalish don't have to obey human laws because they're technically participating in a very long tactical retreat against Orlais. Eventually they're planning to regroup and retake their occupied land.

If an army; the only group of people who can make tactical retreats; intends to pass through a neutral nation, they better respect the laws of said nation or it could be considered an act of war. Dalish elves have been hostile to humans many times.
If the dalish intend to remain at war with humanity forever, that's fine. But then humans have no obligation to treat them as anything other than enemies.

I'm not sure on all the legal niceties of the situation, but they generally camp in out-of-the-way places and don't go out of their way to bother people, so I tend to take a dim view of those who don't return the favor.

They don't generally go look for trouble; altough there are exceptions such as Vellana and the elves Master Ilan tells the Dalish Warden about; but that doesn't give them the right to tell a ferelden where he might or might not go inside Ferelden and stick an arrow in is neck if he doesn't comply.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 novembre 2012 - 09:50 .

[Dave of Canada]

Elves need to integrate into human culture instead of living as mini-separatists who fear humanity but live underneath their roof. The entire idea that elven culture can be held on to is a lie, only the Dalish are capable of doing that and it's a mockery of their former selves often appearing more impulsive and reckless than anything truly "elven".

Sounds difficult but most elves who move out suffer hardships and then move back into the alienage as if it'll solve anything, yet allow the humans that kicked them out to continue on believing themselves to be right. If they integrate into human culture enough, the hatred might simmer down and the Alienage may become an aspect of the past.

I'm not saying it'll happen over-night but slow integration into human society is the best and only possible way to improve elven lives.

[Dorrieb]

General User wrote...
You appear to be reading far, far, far too much into a single agitated utterance by a that Loghain envoy.  One would have to be positively delusional to seriously claim that Orzammar is a territory of the Ferelden Crown.  The King of Ferelden exercises zero effective control over Orzammar.

It's spelled out explicitely. The official view of Ferelden is that Orzammar amounts to an arldom owing fealty to the crown, and the envoy was as incapable as you are of conceiving of this as anything less than a fact. Of course it's positively delusional, and it got him killed, but it is the official view according to their law.

General User wrote...
If by "absolute" you mean that I hold that individuals or groups have no right to decide when they do and do not have to obey laws, then yes, laws are quite "absolute."

When in someone else's country, as the Dalish perpetually are, they have every obligation to obey the local laws and respect the local customs.  If they can't or won't do that, they can leave.

But it isn't 'someone else's country' to them. It is their country, and humans are the usurpers. And by 'absolute' I mean the opposite of 'relative'.

General User wrote...
I have no idea what you're even asking.  So if you'd like me to attempt to answer your hypothetical, I'll need you to clarify and/or rephrase.  Also (in the interest of politeness, if nothing else) I'd appreciate if you answered mine as well.

I don't see how that could be difficult to understand. If a) the Qunari conquered the lands that are currently under human rule, and the Qun became the law of the land, and c) a group of humans chose to remain free and not submit to the Qun, then d) would you think the same of those humans as you now think of the Dalish? It's a simple substitution of roles, nothing too straining.

And in the interest of politeness, as you say, my answer is no. It doesn't matter that generations of your ancestors have worked really, really hard at keeping what they took by force, the people that they dispossessed still have the right to their own way of life in the land of their own ancestors.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 01 décembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Daerog]

Dorrieb wrote...

I don't see how that could be difficult to understand. If a) the Qunari conquered the lands that are currently under human rule, and the Qun became the law of the land, and c) a group of humans chose to remain free and not submit to the Qun, then d) would you think the same of those humans as you now think of the Dalish? It's a simple substitution of roles, nothing too straining.

And in the interest of politeness, as you say, my answer is no. It doesn't matter that generations of your ancestors have worked really, really hard at keeping what they took by force, the people that they dispossessed still have the right to their own way of life in the land of their own ancestors.

If humans were roaming around, armed, and antagonistic to the local governors? Ya, sounds dalish, and ya, sounds like enemies to local governors and wouldn't be surprised if the Qunari actively try to neutralize the humans if they pose a threat.

The dalish are weak and their policies keep them weak as they dwindle to oblivion. They don't have a static nation, that is a disadvantage, but they're isolationist policy is their downfall, they need to open up, send envoys to local towns they are coming near to start friendly terms or bail if there is tension. There are towns that are friendly to the Dalish according to the roleplaying game, but if not going by that, then they can be tolerated for a time like with Kirkwall. They should be open, and certainly trade will be a good idea. Pelts, or ironwood items since it is unique to the dalish.

However, that does begin a kind of integration, and if the dalish really wish to keep their isolationist policies and get their own nation, then by all means, take it from the human barbarian tribes, like the Avvars or Chasind or any other deep forested area that is not settled by humans, there are still those places. After settling, they will need a powerful army for defense or be friendly to neighboring nations. It is possible, they were doing fine against Orlais by themselves, but they chose to threaten the Chantry and didn't have any ambassadors or diplomatic relations with any one else to clear up confusion, so their lack of foresight was their fault.

As for the second part, who's to say that the elves had ancestors first in some of the more southern lands? The Empire may have just brought slaves south after driving human barbarians off. Not all humans were part of the Imperium, some lands may have been ignored by the "immortal" and isolationist elves and so originally settled by humans. I'm not so sure on the history of the Alamari. Also, if multiple generations have held onto the land and made it their home, no one has the right to throw them off just because their ancestors threw other people out. Should the dalish be allowed to practice their culture? Sure, sounds nice, but they tend to have a zero tolerance policy towards humans and human ways of life as well so fault lies with both parties.

Frankly, the dalish seem to be the most racist and antagonistic group in all of Thedas. I'm all for helping out the city elves and trying to set up channels for them to lift themselves up, but I don't have much sympathy for the Dalish.

[General User]

Dorrieb wrote...

General User wrote...
You appear to be reading far, far, far too much into a single agitated utterance by a that Loghain envoy.  One would have to be positively delusional to seriously claim that Orzammar is a territory of the Ferelden Crown.  The King of Ferelden exercises zero effective control over Orzammar.

It's spelled out explicitely. The official view of Ferelden is that Orzammar amounts to an arldom owing fealty to the crown, and the envoy was as incapable as you are of conceiving of this as anything less than a fact. Of course it's positively delusional, and it got him killed, but it is the official view according to their law.

I can't really tell whether you are confused or simply trying to be confusing.  If it's the latter: mission accomplished.  

I however will be clear: Orzammar IS a sovereign city-state and not a territory of the Ferelden Crown.  Because of Orzammar status as a sovereign state, when a human envoy visits Orzammar, and the dwarves tell him to pound sand, the human has no choice but to obey thier ruling.  It is the same with all the other nations of Thedas; they too are sovereign states.  And, when dealing with those states the elves have an obligation to obey their rulings.

General User wrote...
If by "absolute" you mean that I hold that individuals or groups have no right to decide when they do and do not have to obey laws, then yes, laws are quite "absolute."

When in someone else's country, as the Dalish perpetually are, they have every obligation to obey the local laws and respect the local customs.  If they can't or won't do that, they can leave.

But it isn't 'someone else's country' to them. It is their country, and humans are the usurpers.

That way of looking at the world is precisely what makes the Dalish so disgraceful.  The lands the Dalish pass through AREN'T their lands, and haven't been for hundreds or even thousands of years (if they ever were in the first place).

General User wrote...
I have no idea what you're even asking.  So if you'd like me to attempt to answer your hypothetical, I'll need you to clarify and/or rephrase.  Also (in the interest of politeness, if nothing else) I'd appreciate if you answered mine as well.

I don't see how that could be difficult to understand. If a) the Qunari conquered the lands that are currently under human rule, and the Qun became the law of the land, and c) a group of humans chose to remain free and not submit to the Qun, then d) would you think the same of those humans as you now think of the Dalish? It's a simple substitution of roles, nothing too straining.

Your hypothetical directly implies that race might somehow be a significant factor.   To someone like myself who views race as either a secondary and often a non-issue, trying to contort my mind into this sort of perverse worldview actually is a bit straining.

Now, that said…  If these hypothetical humans behaved as the Dalish do, ie traveling in heavily armed and overtly hostile clans that refuse to recognize or obey the rightful rulers of the countries they pass through (in this hypothetical, that would be the qunari), then yes, these humans would be every bit the block-headed menace the Dalish are.  

And in the interest of politeness, as you say, my answer is no. It doesn't matter that generations of your ancestors have worked really, really hard at keeping what they took by force, the people that they dispossessed still have the right to their own way of life in the land of their own ancestors.

So much shear wrongness I don't even know where to begin. 

First of all it was the Magisters of Old Tevinter who "dispossessed" the ancient elves, not the ancestors of the mainstream human nations of Thedas.  

Second, so not only did the ancestors of the mainstream human nations of Thedas not take anything from "the elves" by force, it was actually the elves under Shartan HELPED the humans come into possession of the lands that would one day become the nations of Thedas. 

Third, the humans didn't just go about "keeping" the lands that Andraste and Shartan helped secure for them, they improved them.  It was those humans and their decedents who actually built all the things that make that land valuable, and defended the same from those that would destroy or take it.  And they did so for hundreds, even thousands, of years  at that.

Fourth, for the decedents of those ancient elves to claim all of Thedas as some sort of elven patrimony based nigh exclusively on the fact that they are of the same race as a group that once had a civilization in the general region is beyond absurd.

So I have to ask, why did you appeal to natural law only to so completely reject it? 

Modifié par General User, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:39 .