298 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

First of all it was the Magisters of Old Tevinter who "dispossessed" the ancient elves, not the ancestors of the mainstream human nations of Thedas.

Tevinter contains the ancestors of every human nation in Thedas; Tevinter and Thedas were once synonymous.

Second, so not only did the ancestors of the mainstream human nations of Thedas not take anything from "the elves" by force, it was actually the elves under Shartan HELPED the humans come into possession of the lands that would one day become the nations of Thedas.

Shartan didn't help "the humans" come into possession of anything; the elves actually gained territory from the bargain, due to the Dales.

Third, the humans didn't just go about "keeping" the lands that Andraste and Shartan helped secure for them, they improved them. It was those humans and their decedents who actually built all the things that make that land valuable, and defended the same from those that would destroy or take it. And they did so for hundreds, even thousands, of years at that.

You can't claim that the elves didn't, it's just that what they built is now either in ruins or outright sunken into the ground due to human attacks.

Fourth, for the decedents of those ancient elves to claim all of Thedas as some sort of elven patrimony based nigh exclusively on the fact that they are of the same race as a group that once had a civilization in the general region is beyond absurd.

For humans to continue their policies of aggression against the Dalish is no better. And again, if I can play as an elven liberator in, say, the fourth game, I most certainly will. Will the humans be as accommodating as you hope? I seriously doubt it.

[ledod]

Elves deserve to be repressed

[IanPolaris]

While I do think Elves should be treated much better than they are (as if that wasn't obvious enough), I find it very difficult to get worked up about it.  Why?

Because in the long term, elves are doomed, that's why.  In a thousand years or so (and that's being very generous), elves will largely be extinct as a race.  Why?  Because elves don't breed true, ie if an elf breeds with anything other than an elf, that offspring is not an elf.  Given that in order to survive in Thedas, elves HAVE to coexist cheek and jowel with humans (especially), and given that humans and elves find each other mutually attractive or at least available as mates (admittedly more so on the part of humans to elves than vice versa), it's ultimately going to be a fait accompli.

The only chance the elves might have is if the Dalish got off the high horse, and started accepting people as cultural members of their tribes (like Native American tribes do today) rather than being worked up about elf purity (which is doomed in the medium to long term anyway).  It would also help if the hahrens of the city elves would work with the Dalish on this.

I see very little chance of that happening though.  In short, if the Dalish are going to survive as Dalish (elves) then they need to start accepting children like Feynriel in as full members of the tribe and preserve the culture while admitted the biological fact that as a sub-race, Elves are pretty much biologically doomed.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

I see very little chance of that happening though. In short, if the Dalish are going to survive as Dalish (elves) then they need to start accepting children like Feynriel in as full members of the tribe and preserve the culture while admitted the biological fact that as a sub-race, Elves are pretty much biologically doomed.

This is why elven isolationism was always necessary. Unless some magical means can be found of making elven blood be stronger... potentially even overpowering human blood? It'd be an interesting quest for a DA game involving elves more.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

I see very little chance of that happening though. In short, if the Dalish are going to survive as Dalish (elves) then they need to start accepting children like Feynriel in as full members of the tribe and preserve the culture while admitted the biological fact that as a sub-race, Elves are pretty much biologically doomed.

This is why elven isolationism was always necessary. Unless some magical means can be found of making elven blood be stronger... potentially even overpowering human blood? It'd be an interesting quest for a DA game involving elves more.

That isn't going to happen though.  Given that humans have a stranglehold on Thedas' economy, and given the inherent limitations of a hunter-gatherer society (and given that human populations will continue to soar and take more and more land that otherwise would be unclaimed), isolation isn't an option.  This is the real reason why the Native American tribes are now largely non-existant.  Not from military conquest (although there was some of that) but simply a massive population shift that makes isolation impossible.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I see very little chance of that happening though. In short, if the Dalish are going to survive as Dalish (elves) then they need to start accepting children like Feynriel in as full members of the tribe and preserve the culture while admitted the biological fact that as a sub-race, Elves are pretty much biologically doomed.

This is why elven isolationism was always necessary. Unless some magical means can be found of making elven blood be stronger... potentially even overpowering human blood? It'd be an interesting quest for a DA game involving elves more.

That isn't going to happen though.  Given that humans have a stranglehold on Thedas' economy, and given the inherent limitations of a hunter-gatherer society (and given that human populations will continue to soar and take more and more land that otherwise would be unclaimed), isolation isn't an option.  This is the real reason why the Native American tribes are now largely non-existant.  Not from military conquest (although there was some of that) but simply a massive population shift that makes isolation impossible.

-Polaris

So the question is... how can this shift be undone? Though it's possible that if the elves stay out of the mage/templar war, and if the war itself goes bad enough (possibly due to outside influence), the human casualties could be so high that the population numbers could return to a relatively more balanced state. Obviously it'd be bad to pursue this, but... not so bad to take advantage of that outcome if it happens, I think.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I see very little chance of that happening though. In short, if the Dalish are going to survive as Dalish (elves) then they need to start accepting children like Feynriel in as full members of the tribe and preserve the culture while admitted the biological fact that as a sub-race, Elves are pretty much biologically doomed.

This is why elven isolationism was always necessary. Unless some magical means can be found of making elven blood be stronger... potentially even overpowering human blood? It'd be an interesting quest for a DA game involving elves more.

That isn't going to happen though.  Given that humans have a stranglehold on Thedas' economy, and given the inherent limitations of a hunter-gatherer society (and given that human populations will continue to soar and take more and more land that otherwise would be unclaimed), isolation isn't an option.  This is the real reason why the Native American tribes are now largely non-existant.  Not from military conquest (although there was some of that) but simply a massive population shift that makes isolation impossible.

-Polaris

So the question is... how can this shift be undone? Though it's possible that if the elves stay out of the mage/templar war, and if the war itself goes bad enough (possibly due to outside influence), the human casualties could be so high that the population numbers could return to a relatively more balanced state. Obviously it'd be bad to pursue this, but... not so bad to take advantage of that outcome if it happens, I think.

Except by magic, I see no realistic way this shift can be undone (and from what I understand it's always existed).  Human are much more prolific breeders than Elves and are a far more aggressive culture.  Consider that human populations recover within a generation or two even after full fledged blights!  I find it difficult to imagine that any Mage-Templar conflict (no matter how bloody) would compare to a blight.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

Then it's magic we need, and preferably some way for the elves to find a way to curb human aggression. Likely needing more magic, and probably too far off in the future to really assess, but it's definitely a goal I would find worth pursuing.

[MisterJB]

"Curb human agression" through magic? What exactly is that supposed to mean? Elves are as violent as humans.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

"Curb human agression" through magic? What exactly is that supposed to mean? Elves are as violent as humans.

Then they shouldn't have any problems expanding if such a population shift is accomplished. Which would mean that the only thing necessary is to strengthen elven blood.

[Dorrieb]

General User wrote...
I can't really tell whether you are confused or simply trying to be confusing.  If it's the latter: mission accomplished. 

Well I can tell that you're not really confused, you've just found that you made an argument based on a false assumption and you're trying to obscure that fact by being condescending. Tsk, tsk, and so on.

General User wrote...I however will be clear: Orzammar IS a sovereign city-state and not a territory of the Ferelden Crown.

Again (and again), says who? Not Ferelden.

General User wrote...
The lands the Dalish pass through AREN'T their lands

Again, says who?

General User wrote...
Your hypothetical directly implies that race might somehow be a significant factor.   To someone like myself who views race as either a secondary and often a non-issue, trying to contort my mind into this sort of perverse worldview actually is a bit straining.

Oh, boy. Really? Condescension and seizing the moral high ground? Resorting to sophistry signals a weak position. Just saying.

General User wrote...
So much shear wrongness I don't even know where to begin. 

First of all it was the Magisters of Old Tevinter who "dispossessed" the ancient elves, not the ancestors of the mainstream human nations of Thedas.  

Second, so not only did the ancestors of the mainstream human nations of Thedas not take anything from "the elves" by force, it was actually the elves under Shartan HELPED the humans come into possession of the lands that would one day become the nations of Thedas. 

Third, the humans didn't just go about "keeping" the lands that Andraste and Shartan helped secure for them, they improved them.  It was those humans and their decedents who actually built all the things that make that land valuable, and defended the same from those that would destroy or take it.  And they did so for hundreds, even thousands, of years  at that.

You left out the bit where the Chantry declares a holy war on the Dales for daring to worship their own gods on their own land, and every maker-worshipping human nation joins in to dispossess the elves of their homeland, which is how they come to their present situation. Funny thing to forget.

General User wrote...
So I have to ask, why did you appeal to natural law only to so completely reject it? 

I'm not. You're confusing natural law with positive law. And stripped of the unfortunate sophistical devices, your argument (and theirs) goes in a circle:

'We are the rightful authorities of Thedas.'
Says who?
'Says the law'
And who makes the law?
'We do.'
And who are you to make the law?
'We are the rightful authorities of Thedas.'

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Then they shouldn't have any problems expanding if such a population shift is accomplished. Which would mean that the only thing necessary is to strengthen elven blood.

Your elven supremacy is showing. 
Not to mention "strengthening elven blood" is nonsense. There is a lot that determines dominant genes beyond blood and Bioware is not going to write a story about magic altering dominant genes.
The thing is, the elves had a nation. They then lost it through their own means.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2012 - 04:11 .

[Dorrieb]

IanPolaris wrote...

While I do think Elves should be treated much better than they are (as if that wasn't obvious enough), I find it very difficult to get worked up about it.  Why?

Because in the long term, elves are doomed, that's why.  In a thousand years or so (and that's being very generous), elves will largely be extinct as a race.  Why?  Because elves don't breed true, ie if an elf breeds with anything other than an elf, that offspring is not an elf.  Given that in order to survive in Thedas, elves HAVE to coexist cheek and jowel with humans (especially), and given that humans and elves find each other mutually attractive or at least available as mates (admittedly more so on the part of humans to elves than vice versa), it's ultimately going to be a fait accompli.

That hadn't even occurred to me, but yeah. Sad though. Mind you, it still doesn't affect the ethical question of humans' treatment of the elves at 'present'. But yeah, genetics will eventually sort it.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 01 décembre 2012 - 04:24 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is why elven isolationism was always necessary.

There's isolationism and then there's "isolationism".
I still think integration is their best option at a better life but I wouldn't oppose the creation of a new elven nation in, say, Par-Vollen if they help with the war against the Qunari. I'm even ok with forbidding immigration from humans to ensure the elves as a race don't disappear.
But don't pretend the other nations don't exist. Engage in commerce, diplomacy, etc. That was the mistake of the elves of the Dales if we believe they didn't start the war.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2012 - 04:21 .

[Xilizhra]

Your elven supremacy is showing.
Not to mention "strengthening elven blood" is nonsense. There is a lot that determines dominant genes beyond blood and Bioware is not going to write a story about magic altering dominant genes.
The thing is, the elves had a nation. They then lost it through their own means.

I spoke metaphorically and in terms that Thedosians would actually understand. They could speak of it as blood, but we'd speak of it as altering genes.

[TCBC_Freak]

Dorrieb wrote...

General User wrote...
So I have to ask, why did you appeal to natural law only to so completely reject it?

I'm not. You're confusing natural law with positive law. And stripped of the unfortunate sophistical devices, your argument (and theirs) goes in a circle:

'We are the rightful authorities of Thedas.'
Says who?
'Says the law'
And who makes the law?
'We do.'
And who are you to make the law?
'We are the rightful authorities of Thedas.'

Natural law is based on possession and strength to hold it. Thus, by natural law they are the rightful authorities of Thedas because they took the land and hold it and anyone who tries to take it is fought off (such as the Qunari). Is this right? Maybe not, but Natural law doesn't care about right or wrong, it just is.

IanPolaris wrote...

In the long term, elves are doomed, that's why. In a thousand years or so (and that's being very generous), elves will largely be extinct as a race. Why? Because elves don't breed true, ie if an elf breeds with anything other than an elf, that offspring is not an elf. Given that in order to survive in Thedas, elves HAVE to coexist cheek and jowel with humans (especially), and given that humans and elves find each other mutually attractive or at least available as mates (admittedly more so on the part of humans to elves than vice versa), it's ultimately going to be a fait accompli.

The only chance the elves might have is if the Dalish got off the high horse, and started accepting people as cultural members of their tribes (like Native American tribes do today) rather than being worked up about elf purity (which is doomed in the medium to long term anyway). It would also help if the hahrens of the city elves would work with the Dalish on this.

I see very little chance of that happening though. In short, if the Dalish are going to survive as Dalish (elves) then they need to start accepting children like Feynriel in as full members of the tribe and preserve the culture while admitted the biological fact that as a sub-race, Elves are pretty much biologically doomed.

-Polaris

I hear you. They need to focus on keeping their culture memory alive, this is who we come from, lets honor that and look to who we can be now. How pointy their ears are or the color of someones skin isn't what matters, it is remembering where you come from and your forefathers and then deciding who you will become, that is important. I'm a white American, but I haven't forgotten that my ancestors where Native Americans of the Apache Tribe, Scottish immigrants just after the American Revolution, an African American slave who was "lucky" enough to have a child that could "pass" once they escaped the south just before the Civil War, as well as German and a bit of Irish thanks to immigrants during the American Civil War. Irish/German on my mom's side and the rest come from my dad's side. Remembering you culture and heritage is important, but it shouldn't be what defines you any more than the color of your skin, we have to keep moving forward, being stuck in the past just ruins people's lives. Trying to live in the past is what has kept the elves as they are, an oppressed people, a dying people.

[BlueMagitek]

Dorrieb wrote...

You left out the bit where the Chantry declares a holy war on the Dales for daring to worship their own gods on their own land, and every maker-worshipping human nation joins in to dispossess the elves of their homeland, which is how they come to their present situation. Funny thing to forget.

That's a gross simplifcation of what happened.  While there likely was religious friction, the Exalted March was not called for that.  By the time an Exalted March was called for, the Dalish were knocking on Val Royeaux' door.  For the survival of the Chantry & Orlais, the Divine called for an Exalted March. 

Eh, Elves are just as vicious (and occassionaly more so) than humans.  While I do feel for the plight of the City Elves, the Dalish really need to get their act together.

[Dorrieb]

TCBC_Freak wrote...
Natural law is based on possession and strength to hold it.

No it isn't. Please look up 'natural law' on Wikipaedia, or somewhere.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 01 décembre 2012 - 05:48 .

[Dorrieb]

BlueMagitek wrote...

That's a gross simplifcation of what happened.  While there likely was religious friction, the Exalted March was not called for that.  By the time an Exalted March was called for, the Dalish were knocking on Val Royeaux' door.  For the survival of the Chantry & Orlais, the Divine called for an Exalted March. 

It's exactly what happened, according to the Journal. 'The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those
were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered.'

BlueMagitek wrote...
 While I do feel for the plight of the City Elves, the Dalish really need to get their act together.

I'm actually kind of with you there.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 01 décembre 2012 - 05:55 .

[Herr Uhl]

Dorrieb wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

That's a gross simplifcation of what happened.  While there likely was religious friction, the Exalted March was not called for that.  By the time an Exalted March was called for, the Dalish were knocking on Val Royeaux' door.  For the survival of the Chantry & Orlais, the Divine called for an Exalted March. 

It's exactly what happened, according to the Journal. 'The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered.'

Note that it was written by an elf and doesn't even mention that there was a war. The Dalish were winning the war and were torching chantries as they went. Then the "Holy War" was called. Until then it was just Orlais vs. the Dales.

[TCBC_Freak]

Dorrieb wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...
Natural law is based on possession and strength to hold it.

No it isn't. Please look up 'natural law' on Wikipaedia, or somewhere.

Not to start an argument, but Natural law is the law of nature. Anything else is man made even if they want to call it natural. I don't need to go to Wikipedia to see two dogs fight over a bone and that the stronger one takes it and the bone is his by right of natural law.

If you mean to go into sociology or political science you aren't talking about natural law, you are talking about what humans think about it and how they have tried to incorporate it into a higher form of thinking.

[Dorrieb]

TCBC_Freak wrote...
Not to start an argument, but Natural law is the law of nature.

Natural law[/b], or the law of nature[/b] (Latin: lex naturalis), is a system of law that is purportedly determined by nature, and thus universal.[1] classically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature—both social and personal—and deduce binding rules of moral behavior.

This is what we're discussing. 

[General User]

[quote]Dorrieb wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...
I can't really tell whether you are confused or simply trying to be confusing.  If it's the latter: mission accomplished.  [/quote]Well I can tell that you're not really confused, you've just found that you made an argument based on a false assumption and you're trying to obscure that fact by being condescending. Tsk, tsk, and so on. [/quote]My argument is based on reason and takes into account all observable evidence.   The ruling powers of the sovereign states of Thedas (Orzammar, Ferelden, etc.) are the rightful authorities in their respective territories.  When foreign groups enter the territories of another power they should respect the sovereign authority of their hosts.  Depending on the player, Loghain's envoy either goes away humbled or pays for failing to respect Orzammar's sovereignty with his life.

[quote] [quote]General User wrote...

I however will be clear: Orzammar IS a sovereign city-state and not a territory of the Ferelden Crown. [/quote]Again (and again), says who? Not Ferelden. [/quote]Says everyone who isn't a frustrated Loghain envoy (and even he caves when pressed).

[quote] [quote]General User wrote...
The lands the Dalish pass through AREN'T their lands[/quote]Again, says who? [/quote]Says the people who actually live on those lands.

[quote]General User wrote...
Your hypothetical directly implies that race might somehow be a significant factor.   To someone like myself who views race as either a secondary and often a non-issue, trying to contort my mind into this sort of perverse worldview actually is a bit straining.[/quote]Oh, boy. Really? Condescension and seizing the moral high ground? Resorting to sophistry signals a weak position. Just saying. [/quote] I didn't have to "seize" the moral high ground, because I live there.   And it's easy for me to be "condescending" because I'm right.  You'd be best advised to make peace with that,  because the truth doesn't go away just because you try an trivialize it. 

[quote] [quote]General User wrote...
So much shear wrongness I don't even know where to begin. 

First of all it was the Magisters of Old Tevinter who "dispossessed" the ancient elves, not the ancestors of the mainstream human nations of Thedas.  

Second, so not only did the ancestors of the mainstream human nations of Thedas not take anything from "the elves" by force, it was actually the elves under Shartan HELPED the humans come into possession of the lands that would one day become the nations of Thedas. 

Third, the humans didn't just go about "keeping" the lands that Andraste and Shartan helped secure for them, they improved them.  It was those humans and their decedents who actually built all the things that make that land valuable, and defended the same from those that would destroy or take it.  And they did so for hundreds, even thousands, of years  at that.[/quote]You left out the bit where the Chantry declares a holy war on the Dales for daring to worship their own gods on their own land, and every maker-worshipping human nation joins in to dispossess the elves of their homeland, which is how they come to their present situation. Funny thing to forget. [/quote]I didn't forget it, it just never happened.  The fall of the Old Dales was the natural consequence of the hostile and antagonistic policies the Dalish chose to adopt.  And even the actual war itself started with an act of Dalish aggression.

[quote] [quote]General User wrote...
So I have to ask, why did you appeal to natural law only to so completely reject it? 
[/quote]I'm not. You're confusing natural law with positive law. And stripped of the unfortunate sophistical devices, your argument (and theirs) goes in a circle:

'We are the rightful authorities of Thedas.'
Says who?
'Says the law'
And who makes the law?
'We do.'
And who are you to make the law?
'We are the rightful authorities of Thedas.'
[/quote]Is it really natural law that you don't understand, or just what my argument is regarding it?  Because, you see, my entire argument is nothing at all like how you characterize it.  It is rather, that the human nations of Thedas are the rightfully authorities of their respective nations as the natural consequence of the fact that they were the one who have exerted and continue to exert, real and effective control over those lands as permanent residents for hundreds or thousands for years.

[Xilizhra]

I didn't forget it, it just never happened. The fall of the Old Dales was the natural consequence of the hostile and antagonistic policies the Dalish chose to adopt. And even the actual war itself started with an act of Dalish aggression.

Based on you believing Orlais, which I see no reason to.

Is it really natural law that you don't understand, or just what my argument is regarding it? Because, you see, my entire argument is nothing at all like how you characterize it. It is rather, that the human nations of Thedas are the rightfully authorities of their respective nations as the natural consequence of the fact that they were the one who have exerted and continue to exert, real and effective control over those lands as permanent residents for hundreds or thousands for years.

Be that as it may, they did so first by destroying Arlathan and then the Dales. Would you say that if the elves somehow conquered the whole of Thedas and controlled it for another thousand years, that it'd all be theirs as well?

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Be that as it may, they did so first by destroying Arlathan and then the Dales. Would you say that if the elves somehow conquered the whole of Thedas and controlled it for another thousand years, that it'd all be theirs as well?

Well, obviously. The land belongs to whomever holds it.