298 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Tevinter contains the ancestors of every human nation in Thedas; Tevinter and Thedas were once synonymous.

I think you got that backwards.  It is  (almost) every human nation in Thedas that contains ancestors who were once part of the Tevinter Imnperium. 

Shartan didn't help "the humans" come into possession of anything; the elves actually gained territory from the bargain, due to the Dales.

Shartan most certainly did help the humans of Thedas come into possession of their lands, by joining with them to overthrow the Tevinter rule there.

You can't claim that the elves didn't, it's just that what they built is now either in ruins or outright sunken into the ground due to human attacks.

"Hi!  I'm from a group of people of the same race as another group of people who may or may not (no one really knows for sure) have lived in this general area thousands of years ago.  As such we can go where we want, do what we want, and you anyone who tries to tell us otherwise, or even gets too close, is going to have a fight on their hands and they (not we) will be in the wrong."

For humans to continue their policies of aggression against the Dalish is no better. And again, if I can play as an elven liberator in, say, the fourth game, I most certainly will. Will the humans be as accommodating as you hope? I seriously doubt it.

Humans aren't aggressive towards the Dalish, as most allow the Dlaish to pass through human lands so long as they don't stay to long and don't make a nuisance of themselves, most humans are being extraordinarily generous.  And since you've stated that you intend to "make all humans tremble" (or other such nonsense).  I do indeed doubt that anyone will go out of their way to be accommodating to such a character.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Be that as it may, they did so first by destroying Arlathan and then the Dales. Would you say that if the elves somehow conquered the whole of Thedas and controlled it for another thousand years, that it'd all be theirs as well?

Of course it would!  Hell, by Right of Conquest they wouldn't even have to wait anywhere near a thousand years. 

As I explained to the other poster when answering a similar hypothetical, race is not and should not even be an issue.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Based on you believing Orlais, which I see no reason to.

Based on common sense.
We know for a fact elves are extremely isolationist which supports Sister Petrine's claim that they refused all attempts at commerce and peaceful discourse
The elves claim that the entire ordeal was fought over the worship of the Maker and that they were 100% innocent. Now, this is, of course, extremely unlikely. Military conflicts are rarely, if ever, to blame on the actions of a single nation.
On the other hand we have the human version; which is supported by more nations than Orlais; that claims border conflicts escalated into war. This version is far more likely than the elven one. For one, it shows a modicrum of objectivity since it admits fault on both sides and second, border conflicts between people as dispars as humans and elves is inevitable; which the elves fail to mention and removes credibility from them; and if you refuse to engage in diplomacy to solve these problems, only one path is open.
Who started the war might be lost in time but it's obvious the elves had their part in beginning it.

[Xilizhra]

Humans aren't aggressive towards the Dalish, as most allow the Dlaish to pass through human lands so long as they don't stay to long and don't make a nuisance of themselves, most humans are being extraordinarily generous. And since you've stated that you intend to "make all humans tremble" (or other such nonsense). I do indeed doubt that anyone will go out of their way to be accommodating to such a character.

No, no, that's for those who try to stop me from restoring the elven people.

[TCBC_Freak]

Dorrieb wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...
Not to start an argument, but Natural law is the law of nature.

Natural law[/b], or the law of nature[/b] (Latin: lex naturalis), is a system of law that is purportedly determined by nature, and thus universal.[1] classically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature—both social and personal—and deduce binding rules of moral behavior.

This is what we're discussing.

I was pointing to the first part, Determined by nature and thus universal (such as survival of the fittest and the like).

classically it refers to man and the fact that he can analyze it and how human nature relates to it, like I said. I'm not seeing a disagreement between what you were talking about and what I said. Maybe it's just not translating right in text based communication.

[TCBC_Freak]

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't forget it, it just never happened. The fall of the Old Dales was the natural consequence of the hostile and antagonistic policies the Dalish chose to adopt. And even the actual war itself started with an act of Dalish aggression.

Based on you believing Orlais, which I see no reason to.

What reason do you have not to? Just out of curiosity?

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

Humans aren't aggressive towards the Dalish, as most allow the Dlaish to pass through human lands so long as they don't stay to long and don't make a nuisance of themselves, most humans are being extraordinarily generous. And since you've stated that you intend to "make all humans tremble" (or other such nonsense). I do indeed doubt that anyone will go out of their way to be accommodating to such a character.

No, no, that's for those who try to stop me from restoring the elven people.

Some of your suggestions have been "Depopulate a portion of Thedas of humans" and "Strengthen elven blood until it overpowers human".
And you wonder why they would want to stop you.

[Xilizhra]

What reason do you have not to? Just out of curiosity?

They're expansionist imperialists who have a vested interest in stealing the land of everyone they can get away with stealing from.

Some of your suggestions have been "Depopulate a portion of Thedas of humans" and "Strengthen elven blood until it overpowers human".
And you wonder why they would want to stop you.

No, it's waiting for something else to depopulate the human population. I wouldn't do it. I just would take opportunities as they came. As for the other thing, that's to ensure that elves won't go extinct.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
No, it's waiting for something else to depopulate the human population. I wouldn't do it. I just would take opportunities as they came. As for the other thing, that's to ensure that elves won't go extinct.

So, just allow it to happen, instead. Much like the elves did during the Second Blight. No wonder you support them.

Would you rather the humans go extinct?

[Dorrieb]

General User wrote...
Is it really natural law that you don't understand, or just what my argument is regarding it?  Because, you see, my entire argument is nothing at all like how you characterize it.  It is rather, that the human nations of Thedas are the rightfully authorities of their respective nations as the natural consequence of the fact that they were the one who have exerted and continue to exert, real and effective control over those lands as permanent residents for hundreds or thousands for years.

I understand natural law. You are pretending not to understand the distinction between natural and positive law, even though you understand it perfectly.

I'll break it down: Orzammar is an independent and sovereign state by natural law. Ferelden's positive law does not acknowledge it as such. The only reason this hasn't resulted in conflict is that neither side is interested in pressing the matter. If Orzammar were to rise in power though, this could change.

The Dales were a sovereign and independent state by both natural and positive law, as the land was granted to the elves by Andraste herself, an authority that humans recognise. The Chantry got around this by claiming that the elves had lost the right to that land by not worshipping Andraste and her Maker, even though Andraste's decree was not conditional upon them doing so. The elves were dispossessed in defiance of both natural and positive law.

Likewise, natural law would say that Orlais and Ferelden are both sovereign states, but it doesn't help in defining their borders, which is why positive law in Orlais claims a certain strip of land to be Orlesian, while positive law in Ferelden claims that it's Fereldan. And it's how positive law in Orlais allowed them to claim Ferelden as theirs by right while natural law would indicate that that wasn't fair. See?

Natural law judgment would be for the Dales to be returned to the Dalish and restitution to be made to them in order to rebuild. Positive law actually should say the same thing, as the original excuse for flaunting Andraste's decree was flawed. However, the dispossession of the elves remains ensconced in positive law, and by that flawed argument they are not recognised in positive law as a sovereign nation. By natural law, if the positive law of the humans does not recognise the elves' sovereignty, they are not obliged to recognise theirs.

But I think you understand the distinction perfectly, you're only pretending not to. It's easier for you to cop an attitude of condescension than to engage an opposing argument.

[Xilizhra]

So, just allow it to happen, instead. Much like the elves did during the Second Blight. No wonder you support them.

Well, if the elves can parley a position of assured power and security, perhaps it could work.

Would you rather the humans go extinct?

Elves have slower reproduction rates and much less incentive to mate with humans than the other way around.

[MisterJB]

Dorrieb wrote...
The Dales were a sovereign and independent state by both natural and positive law, as the land was granted to the elves by Andraste herself, an authority that humans recognise. The Chantry got around this by claiming that the elves had lost the right to that land by not worshipping Andraste and her Maker, even though Andraste's decree was not conditional upon them doing so. The elves were dispossessed in defiance of both natural and positive law.

No, the humans ceased to acknowledge the elven right to that land when the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Val-Royeaux.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if the elves can parley a position of assured power and security, perhaps it could work.

You're still hoping for a portion of humanity to be exterminated and willing to stand aside while it happens.

Elves have slower reproduction rates and much less incentive to mate with humans than the other way around.

Where is it stated elves have slower reproductions rates? And if it is stated, then we still must question why is this so. Are male elves less sexually capable than human males? Or does the problem lie with their women? Regardless, this would be solved by mating with humans. Or maybe it's financial issues that stop them from having more children?

Elves have less incentive to mate with humans because doing so produces more humans. Turn that around and just watch them kidnap human females to increase their numbers and take some revenge on them.
If you make elven genes dominant, then the humans become endangered. Hence why I said your elven supremacy is showing.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you rather the humans go extinct?

Elves have slower reproduction rates and much less incentive to mate with humans than the other way around.

I'm not sure where the "slower reproduction rates" malarkey comes from. As far as I know it is dwarves that have trouble with fertility.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:24 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Xilizhra wrote...

What reason do you have not to? Just out of curiosity?

They're expansionist imperialists who have a vested interest in stealing the land of everyone they can get away with stealing from.

Can you show where you heard the rest of this from and why it was a more trustworthy source? Or is this purely anecdotal based on the war they had with Fereldan of which we have only really seen the thoughts of some people from one side of it? I'm being for real here, if you have a source from a codex entry I missed or a book or something I'd like to read it to understand more about the game world I love so much.

[Xilizhra]

You're still hoping for a portion of humanity to be exterminated and willing to stand aside while it happens.

Not quite. I would advocate for the elves aiding the mages even if it'd mean a higher human population in the end.

And I would be willing to compromise and simply alter things so that humans and elves can't have children no matter how hard they try.

Can you show where you heard the rest of this from and why it was a more
trustworthy source? Or is this purely anecdotal based on the war they
had with Fereldan of which we have only really seen the thoughts of some
people from one side of it? I'm being for real here, if you have a
source from a codex entry I missed or a book or something I'd like to
read it to understand more about the game world I love so much.

They're an empire, defined as a nation formed through conquest. Drakon's history alone is quite expansionist, as is the Dales thing, their incursions into Nevarra, Ferelden, etc.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:34 .

[Dorrieb]

MisterJB wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...
The Dales were a sovereign and independent state by both natural and positive law, as the land was granted to the elves by Andraste herself, an authority that humans recognise. The Chantry got around this by claiming that the elves had lost the right to that land by not worshipping Andraste and her Maker, even though Andraste's decree was not conditional upon them doing so. The elves were dispossessed in defiance of both natural and positive law.

No, the humans ceased to acknowledge the elven right to that land when the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Val-Royeaux.

Not true and irrelevant. Their own laws compel them to respect Andraste's decree. There is no clause in it that says 'unless they worship different gods and /or cause trouble'.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

And I would be willing to compromise and simply alter things so that humans and elves can't have children no matter how hard they try.

How? How would you be able to achieve this?

[Xilizhra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And I would be willing to compromise and simply alter things so that humans and elves can't have children no matter how hard they try.

How? How would you be able to achieve this?

Blood magic-utilizing genetic alterations? Truth be told, I'm just throwing out hypotheticals because I don't think, narratively, that the elves are going to be doomed no matter what, but I'm not sure what purely nonmagical means can be used to restore them while not being second-class citizens under human rule.

[Herr Uhl]

Dorrieb wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

The Dales were a sovereign and independent state by both natural and positive law, as the land was granted to the elves by Andraste herself, an authority that humans recognise. The Chantry got around this by claiming that the elves had lost the right to that land by not worshipping Andraste and her Maker, even though Andraste's decree was not conditional upon them doing so. The elves were dispossessed in defiance of both natural and positive law.

No, the humans ceased to acknowledge the elven right to that land when the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Val-Royeaux.

Not true and irrelevant. Their own laws compel them to respect Andraste's decree. There is no clause in it that says 'unless they worship different gods and /or cause trouble'.

They changed the law. Tough feces for elves.

Edit: Or are you arguing that the elves did in fact not reach Val Royeaux?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:38 .

[MisterJB]

Dorrieb wrote...
Not true and irrelevant. Their own laws compel them to respect Andraste's decree. There is no clause in it that says 'unless they worship different gods and /or cause trouble'.

Yes, it is true. It's an historical fact that the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Val-Royeaux, at which point the Chantry called for an Exhalted March. What is up for argument is what sparked this invasion.

And if the elves do not acknowledge the right of the orlesians to live in their land, I don't see any reason the humans should respect the rights of the Dales.

[TCBC_Freak]

MisterJB wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...
Not true and irrelevant. Their own laws compel them to respect Andraste's decree. There is no clause in it that says 'unless they worship different gods and /or cause trouble'.

Yes, it is true. It's an historical fact that the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Val-Royeaux, at which point the Chantry called for an Exhalted March. What is up for argument is what sparked this invasion.

And if the elves do not acknowledge the right of the orlesians to live in their land, I don't see any reason the humans should respect the rights of the Dales.

But, but... they don't believe it happened, and the elves are incapable of wrong doing... why must cloud the issue with facts and logic?

[General User]

Dorrieb wrote...

General User wrote...
Is it really natural law that you don't understand, or just what my argument is regarding it?  Because, you see, my entire argument is nothing at all like how you characterize it.  It is rather, that the human nations of Thedas are the rightfully authorities of their respective nations as the natural consequence of the fact that they were the one who have exerted and continue to exert, real and effective control over those lands as permanent residents for hundreds or thousands for years.

I understand natural law. You are pretending not to understand the distinction between natural and positive law, even though you understand it perfectly.

I'll break it down: Orzammar is an independent and sovereign state by natural law. Ferelden's positive law does not acknowledge it as such. The only reason this hasn't resulted in conflict is that neither side is interested in pressing the matter. If Orzammar were to rise in power though, this could change.

I'm following what you're saying.  I just don't agree that's such is the case at all.  The only evidence I see that could even vaguely support anything of the sort was the line a single over-zealous envoy.  And since there was absolutely nothing that could be said to back that up, and a great deal to suggest the opposite was the case, then the only reasonable conclusion is to call it what it is: the agitated utterance of an over-zealous envoy.

The Dales were a sovereign and independent state by both natural and positive law, as the land was granted to the elves by Andraste herself, an authority that humans recognise. The Chantry got around this by claiming that the elves had lost the right to that land by not worshipping Andraste and her Maker, even though Andraste's decree was not conditional upon them doing so. The elves were dispossessed in defiance of both natural and positive law.

What actually happened was the old Dalish picked a fight with their neighbors... and lost. 

Likewise, natural law would say that Orlais and Ferelden are both sovereign states, but it doesn't help in defining their borders, which is why positive law in Orlais claims a certain strip of land to be Orlesian, while positive law in Ferelden claims that it's Fereldan. And it's how positive law in Orlais allowed them to claim Ferelden as theirs by right while natural law would indicate that that wasn't fair. See?

I see what you're saying but you need to see just how irrelevant it is.  The Dalish elves are not indispute with the rightful rulers of Thedas over any particular piece of property, instead the Dalish claim that they have the right to live by their own laws and customs no matter where they might be.  And they are more than willing to use hideous levels of violence to assert this utterly fraudulent right.

Natural law judgment would be for the Dales to be returned to the Dalish and restitution to be made to them in order to rebuild. Positive law actually should say the same thing, as the original excuse for flaunting Andraste's decree was flawed. However, the dispossession of the elves remains ensconced in positive law, and by that flawed argument they are not recognised in positive law as a sovereign nation. By natural law, if the positive law of the humans does not recognise the elves' sovereignty, they are not obliged to recognise theirs.

That was 700 years ago.  A lot has changed.  Any claim the Dalish might have had to any of their old territory could only even possibly be considered valid if no one has resettled said lands since.

But I think you understand the distinction perfectly, you're only pretending not to. It's easier for you to cop an attitude of condescension than to engage an opposing argument.

It's easy for me to cop an attitude of condescension because you are wrong.

[BlueMagitek]

Dorrieb wrote...

It's exactly what happened, according to the Journal. 'The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those
were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered.'

I'm actually kind of with you there.

Like a good number of people have said so far, there's a large piece missing between the Templars being thrown out and the Dales falling down.  The entire "Dales invading Orlais" thing.

Yes.  Sucks that they lost their homeland, but the way that they are acting isn't going to help them at all.

[Todd23]

MisterJB wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...
Not true and irrelevant. Their own laws compel them to respect Andraste's decree. There is no clause in it that says 'unless they worship different gods and /or cause trouble'.

Yes, it is true. It's an historical fact that the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Val-Royeaux, at which point the Chantry called for an Exhalted March. What is up for argument is what sparked this invasion.

And if the elves do not acknowledge the right of the orlesians to live in their land, I don't see any reason the humans should respect the rights of the Dales.

The divine at that time was racist, removed any help elves gave from the chant.  You think it's a coincidence that the elves claimed being harrased and starting to meet military force?  People keep saying that Tevinter getting them was their fault.  And that they should have put up a fight from the begining rather than seclude themselves.  And now when they take the fight to the new aggresers people are saying they're in the wrong?  Please, they've been screwed by humans so long.  I'm surprised they're not coming up with some sort of weapon or spell that could kill off humans in the next war.