158 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

daftPirate wrote...

Yes please.

You want to pay extra for content thats already in the game? 

Except it won't be.

[Fast Jimmy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Not that I disagree with your summary. But does that perception really matter if the people - not as numerous as they think they are - who feel slighted and robbed are simply very loud, and publishers can look at their financials and laugh at how much money DLC is making them, and thus continue to include DLC.

Perception IS reality. How people see the reality presented to them IS the reality, regardless of how much evidence there may be to the contrary. 

That being said, if this was just the BSN, I would say you are right. But go to any gaming site that discusses Day One DLC and you will find a large segment of the population protesting the practice. Just like with any issue, most people don't care about the argument - but by virtue of not caring, in this case it means that the indifferent will not be buying the extra content. If, as a company, Bioware would have to fight an uphill battle of turning indifferent fans into DLC customers, but they are stuck fighting their own fanbase, then that is a losing battle. Fighting your fans while trying to sell to them is a tough stance to be in. 

Especially when fighting isn't necessary. Does Bioware get more money from a DLC selling it as a Pre-order/CE? Sure. Do the make enough to justify the bad fan reaction, press coverage, PR (both on and off these boards) and overall sense of dissatisfaction. From their fans? I don't know. But anytime you have a decent segment of your consumer base saying they will not buy a portion of your product out of principle alone, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. 

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Not that I disagree with your summary. But does that perception really matter if the people - not as numerous as they think they are - who feel slighted and robbed are simply very loud, and publishers can look at their financials and laugh at how much money DLC is making them, and thus continue to include DLC.

Perception IS reality. How people see the reality presented to them IS the reality, regardless of how much evidence there may be to the contrary. 

That being said, if this was just the BSN, I would say you are right. But go to any gaming site that discusses Day One DLC and you will find a large segment of the population protesting the practice. Just like with any issue, most people don't care about the argument - but by virtue of not caring, in this case it means that the indifferent will not be buying the extra content. If, as a company, Bioware would have to fight an uphill battle of turning indifferent fans into DLC customers, but they are stuck fighting their own fanbase, then that is a losing battle. Fighting your fans while trying to sell to them is a tough stance to be in. 

Especially when fighting isn't necessary. Does Bioware get more money from a DLC selling it as a Pre-order/CE? Sure. Do the make enough to justify the bad fan reaction, press coverage, PR (both on and off these boards) and overall sense of dissatisfaction. From their fans? I don't know. But anytime you have a decent segment of your consumer base saying they will not buy a portion of your product out of principle alone, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. 

But heres the problem, everyone is doing it in some form or another, just belaying the DLC at times so they can avoid backlash.

Case en point, Borderlands 2 had Gearbox promise the extra character class to people as a pre-order bonus, and delayed her release by a month. We also have Ubisoft delaying the release of Assassins Creed III DLC, the King George Washington stuff, while releasing a few exploration maps as pre-order incentive for customers.

So if the perception of day one DLC is so bad, does actually delaying it by a week make it really ok, when its being developed simultaneously with the main game anyway and being offered as bonus incentive for pre-order? This is where it gets a bit hairy if you ask me, because you have companies all doing the same thing, but most get away with it because of something like that, which for me personally I find to be a trivial detail. 

[upsettingshorts]

Redbelle wrote...

My head's nodding but my heart's rebelling.

What does any of your post have to do with Day One DLC?

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Perception IS reality. How people see the reality presented to them IS the reality, regardless of how much evidence there may be to the contrary.

Again, they would know better than us if the PR hits they may or may not take is too high a price to pay for the revenue DLC offers.

That isn't to say they don't have any interest in trying to win that PR battle, but that battle might not have the same battle lines we assume it does from our limited perspective.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 novembre 2012 - 03:46 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Yes. It does.

It doesn't make sense, it isn't logical and you can say people are stupid for it being true, but it MATTERS. Because, again, it is a PSYCHOLOGICAL argument. Not a logical one.

I've been saying for months now Bioware should delay their DLC by a few weeks. To include season passes instead of D1DLC. Not because it is a better model financially (for either the developer OR the player) but because it is an easier sell emotionally.

People's complaints about AC3 have been somewhat similar to ME3's, especially in regards to the ending. But one thing Ubisoft is not having to deal with now? Bad D1DLC press. In fact, the King George DLC has many naysayers still excited, despite the fact it will fix none of ther issues with the gameplay, bugs, story or ending.

That's why it works - it doesn't make more sense, but it does FEEL better, therefore it is RECEIVED better.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 novembre 2012 - 04:20 .

[upsettingshorts]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That's why it works - it doesn't make more sense, but it does FEEL better, therefore it SELLS better.

Do you know that?

My argument here isn't meant to prove a negative, only point out that part of it relies on information I don't think you have.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 novembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm sorry, you are right. I should have phrased that as 'it is RECEIVED better.' I, obviously, can't compare DLC sales for DLCs that aren't even out yet. I was using sell in the more general term of selling the concept of their DLC, not the actual units moved.

I would love to continue this conversation, but I am slammed busy at work now. Not to say the conversation should or will stop, but I won't be able to comment to any statements directed to my comments for a bit.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 novembre 2012 - 04:09 .

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Yes. It does.

It doesn't make sense, it isn't logical and you can say people are stupid for it being true, but it MATTERS. Because, again, it is a PSYCHOLOGICAL argument. Not a logical one.

I've been saying for months now Bioware should delay their DLC by a few weeks. To include season passes instead of D1DLC. Not because it is a better model financially (for either the developer OR the player) but because it is an easier sell emotionally.

People's complaints about AC3 have been somewhat similar to ME3's, especially in regards to the ending. But one thing Ubisoft is having to deal with now? Bad D1DLC press. In fact, the King George DLC has many naysayers still excited, despite the fact it will fix none of ther issues with the gameplay, bugs, story or ending.

That's why it works - it doesn't make more sense, but it does FEEL better, therefore it is RECEIVED better.

I can't refute that, but for me personally I see no difference between delaying it or launching it on day one. Even if its an emotional issue, in this situation it does get in the way if you ask me. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 30 novembre 2012 - 04:10 .

[Dragoonlordz]

The one thing I will say about day one DLC is that I hope it is more like the Black Emporium rather than characters. With DA2 I feel that BE should of been the day one DLC and Sebastion should of been included in the game. I do not mind day one DLC as a method for increasing profit but presonally I would prefer the content be altered to more effectively approach what is optional and what is not. Javik for example was good DLC but I don't think having it as the day one DLC was the smart move from a PR perspective. All Bioware games revolve more around the characters in their games than the story. Limiting the DLC on day one to either missions or places like BE is more my ideal rather than characters.

Edit: Because I think Bioware knows the character companions are more important and will not ditch day one DLC methodology, that is why they select companions as day one DLC. My preference (given they will continue to do it) however is using additional, optional story content and places for day one DLC because it is less grating to me as the player to have all the companions from the start and just having new places and story to take part in with them as the day one DLC. It is just that though a preference not the end of the world if they keep doing companions as day one DLC. But keep it to additional companion quests rather than the companions themselves for sale on day one.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 novembre 2012 - 05:09 .

[Jones7602]

Please no, I like to buy complete games, not construction kits!

[Novate]

I just don't get the arguments, Day 1 DLC can be downloaded, that means they can work at it till the very last minute of release. And it can still be in the Vanilla Game, Hello anyone out there?? haven't anyone ever heard of Day 1 Patch....
Come on, this whole game already when out to be published crap is in the Dark Ages. DLC is downloaded, its not in the disc, you don't buy the DLC disc, you buy the right to download it. So timing is never the issue. It has always been about the money.

[Redbelle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

My head's nodding but my heart's rebelling.

What does any of your post have to do with Day One DLC?

It's a testomony to the fact that gamers can reject games and DLC. And seeing as an example would be appropriate, on what grounds can be used to decide not to purchase a product, I used one pertaining to the franchise in question. In this case, the rejection of DA2 on aforementioned grounds.

Modifié par Redbelle, 30 novembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[Xerxes52]

Most likely yes, although I hope it will be free for new purchases, or included with a pre-order edition at no extra cost.

[Realmzmaster]

I have a suggestion for Bioware during the time between going gold and certification to the release date of the game have all those people who were working on DA 3 go off and work on other projects (like ME4, Medal of Honor or the next big thing) (or lay them off and tell them to find work elsewhere and Bioware will call them back when the dlc needs to be made). Leave everything that was cut out of the game on the cutting floor.

No day one dlc. In fact let's go one step further and can the dlc and expansions. Go back to just releasing games no extra content needs to be offered. If multi-player is part of the game make maps and stuff for that. (Which is one way Bioware can keep part of the team working). That way the multi-players can keep on having fun.

Do not worry about expansions. Just make complete games. Gamers will just have to wait 3 to 5 years between games. That way EA and Bioware do not look like greedy developers. All that stuff the was cut out of DA 3 leave it for the next game.

If gamers clamor for more content in between games releases in a series ignore them. That way gamer's perception will be that Bioware/EA makes complete games.

That way Bioware does not have to make a case for money to make dlc, it will simply be included in the next game. The gamers will just have to wait for that interesting character in the next game.

If you feel you must make dlc make sure it is not integral to the main story. Have the dlc occur either before the beginning of the game using only the companions not the PC. So we get more background on the companions like Lelianna' Song or have occur after the ending which can include the PC. But offer none of it on the first day. Wait a month or two. Have the team do something else in the meantime. David Gaider can whip up another book or comic.

That way the facts of the matter will not longer get in the way of the perception of the gamers.

My suggestion is to kill all expansions and dlc make only "complete" games. Any new ideas use for the next game.

[Novate]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I have a suggestion for Bioware during the time between going gold and certification to the release date of the game have all those people who were working on DA 3 go off and work on other projects (like ME4, Medal of Honor or the next big thing) (or lay them off and tell them to find work elsewhere and Bioware will call them back when the dlc needs to be made). Leave everything that was cut out of the game on the cutting floor.

No day one dlc. In fact let's go one step further and can the dlc and expansions. Go back to just releasing games no extra content needs to be offered. If multi-player is part of the game make maps and stuff for that. (Which is one way Bioware can keep part of the team working). That way the multi-players can keep on having fun.

Do not worry about expansions. Just make complete games. Gamers will just have to wait 3 to 5 years between games. That way EA and Bioware do not look like greedy developers. All that stuff the was cut out of DA 3 leave it for the next game.

If gamers clamor for more content in between games releases in a series ignore them. That way gamer's perception will be that Bioware/EA makes complete games.

That way Bioware does not have to make a case for money to make dlc, it will simply be included in the next game. The gamers will just have to wait for that interesting character in the next game.

If you feel you must make dlc make sure it is not integral to the main story. Have the dlc occur either before the beginning of the game using only the companions not the PC. So we get more background on the companions like Lelianna' Song or have occur after the ending which can include the PC. But offer none of it on the first day. Wait a month or two. Have the team do something else in the meantime. David Gaider can whip up another book or comic.

That way the facts of the matter will not longer get in the way of the perception of the gamers.

My suggestion is to kill all expansions and dlc make only "complete" games. Any new ideas use for the next game.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, this way if the game is incomplete its because of bad development, not because they can patch loops and bad story later on. We either get an 10/10 or an 5/10. Then we will know as consumers what the hell we just bought. 

[PinkysPain]

I don't mind the anti-resale DLC ... limiting significant amounts of content to pre-orders like they did in DA2 was just plain scummy though.

[Bfler]

If they have to offer such extra content, then it should be at least like in Origins or in other games like f.e. Darksiders 2. If you buy a new copy you get it for free.
Something like Javik in ME3 is an obvious rip-off and should not happen again.

[slimgrin]

Bfler wrote...

If they have to offer such extra content, then it should be at least like in Origins or in other games like f.e. Darksiders 2. If you buy a new copy you get it for free.
Something like Javik in ME3 is an obvious rip-off and should not happen again.

I fully expect paid for outfits, reskins on weapons, day one DLC, plot specific quests, Doctor Pepper tie-ins; maybe they'll get innovative and give us something like Dragon Crunch cereal ™ or the Power-Hawke energy drink that offends mothers.

This is EA we're talking about.

[Kileyan]

Bfler wrote...

If they have to offer such extra content, then it should be at least like in Origins or in other games like f.e. Darksiders 2. If you buy a new copy you get it for free.
Something like Javik in ME3 is an obvious rip-off and should not happen again.

I agree, I wish the story DLC on day 1 was the new box reward and the mplay was the 10 bucks you had to cough up on day 1 if you wanted it. That would be a true measure, I think, of peoples interest in mplay being shoved into their single player games.

Then again we know nothing of DA3. Mplay could be some really cool coop aventuring that is tightly woven into the single player game, and not someting that can be easily sold seperately.

Someone said above it is really a perception thing. I understand that, but I cannot help it, no matter how many explanations of seperate budgets and teams I hear, the day 1 dlc still feels a bit sleezy to me. One day I'll get used to it maybe.

[Steppenwolf]

I was really miffed over the From Ashes DLC. It just feels wrong to me to take content that was already in the game and a pretty important part of the game and then charge people to access it, even though it's already on the disc. If that's how day 1 DLC will be handled with DA3 then that will be another tick in the "Do Not Buy" column for me.

[paptschik]

I hope so. Day 1 DLC is my favorite kind of DLC. I also hope it's on disc, cause I'd rather save the extra space on my harddrive.
To me, DLC isn't about cutting stuff. It's stuff that is planned within a budget. Either the stuff will cost money or it won't be made at all...for all I care, they could make ALL the DLC intended for the game and have it on disc, ready at launch and I'd be happy.

[LinksOcarina]

Bfler wrote...

If they have to offer such extra content, then it should be at least like in Origins or in other games like f.e. Darksiders 2. If you buy a new copy you get it for free.
Something like Javik in ME3 is an obvious rip-off and should not happen again.

There is one problem with that. And that is the retail stores loathing that policy.

I remember working at a Gamestop when Mass Effect 2 was released, and we were told to try not to sell any new copies as much as possible outside reserves, because of the free DLC plan they had implemented. The rumor was that Gamestop was either going to charge extra, or not carry further titles because of the free DLC undermined their used game market, much like the ten dollar DLC for Madden did on their used game titles. 

By the way, this was from our regional manager, those instructions. Draw your own conclusions there. 

That was two years ago. Now, Gamestop is just offering madden games for twenty dollars less instead of ten to incentivize people to buy it used. So if it does go back, they will artificially lower the price of the game on the secondary  market. I don't know if this was a contributing factor at all, but tensions with distributors might be a reason for the DLC at the moment. I know Wal Marts expect DLC from major game companies and won't stock a game if it's something you can't pay for. Or is that Target....anyway doesn't matter policies like that exist. 

[Steppenwolf]

paptschik wrote...

I hope so. Day 1 DLC is my favorite kind of DLC. I also hope it's on disc, cause I'd rather save the extra space on my harddrive.
To me, DLC isn't about cutting stuff. It's stuff that is planned within a budget. Either the stuff will cost money or it won't be made at all...for all I care, they could make ALL the DLC intended for the game and have it on disc, ready at launch and I'd be happy.

That argument doesn't really hold water. The Shale DLC for Origins was only ready at launch because the release was delayed for consoles. They hadn't even decided to do the Shale character as DLC until a few months before what would have been the PC release date*, meaning it took more than 6 months to make the Shale DLC. Now factor in that discussions about DLC don't start until the game is nearing gold status for most developers and it seems pretty obvious that Javik was supposed to be part of the game from start but was sold as DLC instead. Now I can't say that with 100% certainty, but it's too much of a stretch IMO to think that Javik was always intended to be a DLC character considering how long it takes to go from concept to implementation with DLC. And if the argument is one of cost and budget, that doesn't hold water either considering ME3 has so many fewer squadmates than ME2 had.



*according to materials relating the the DLC

Modifié par BasilKarlo, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:41 .

[Foolsfolly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Why did people return their product's when ME3's ending was revealed to them?

Just curious, do you know how the rates of return for ME3 compare to ME2 (or even the rest of BioWare's games?

I actually don't.

Does anyone? Don't stores handle that and not publishers? And then there's eBay and Amazon and any other trade in website. I mean there's no way to keep tabs on who keeps their games once bought or how long they keep them.

[argan1985]

If it does, there will be a **** storm that Bioware cannot afford. I doubt there will be many pre-orders of the game as it is, and if this is done I think it will be what makes the cup run over.