13 réponses à ce sujet

[Bestyj669]

Just curious if I'm one of the few, that find majority of recent releases (not only BioWare ones, pretty much every single title) to be "fool-proof"? 

All the hints and tips are slowly making me think I might not have a brain of my own, or the ability to use a few brain cells to figure things out.

[You need x Speech to pass this check]
[Fireballing a Fire Elemental might not be the best idea]
[You finished this quest now, go back to the NPC that gave it to you]
[Be careful, you're in the den of thieves, there might be some traps around]
[etc, etc, etc.] 

I get it that for some people that is perfectly fine, and they like it that way. I'm also hoping I'm not the only one that does not want to have the devs "holding" my hand in case there is a possibility of making a "bad decision".

The "good 'ol games" didn't do that. People were still playing them. In fact people still play them from time to time nowdays.

Is there even a slim chance of having something like "Options - Gameplay - Tips -> OFF" 

Now onto difficulty:

Thing I hate the most - Level scaling oponents. As I grow more powerful I want to feel that. If it takes 2 fireballs from an apprentice mage to dispose of a group of  unicorns, it should not take 3 fireballs from a seasoned mage to dispose of the same group of unicorns. If I remember correctly BG2 has done "level scaling" in a really sensible way. What would have been group of hobgoblins on lower level became a few golems on the higher ones.

Health bars - or more precisely, not having them (or having the ability to switch them off)


Am I the only one feeling that "modern" games are becoming more and more casual?

Disclaimer - I'm not a "professional 14 year old gamer", I do have a full time job, drinking commitments etc. My gaming time is fairly limited. Still I'd prefer a challanging rather then a "walk through the park" kind of game play.

[Scipio203]

Well DA:O and DA2 iirc have an option to turn off tutorial messages...so it's a step 

Honestly though, I see what you mean, but it's a stretch to say that a few hints is "dumbing down" games.

A  game series that allows you to change tips (high, low, or off) is the Total War series by Creative Arts, and this feature has stayed in even their most recent game, so it's not as if all games are going toward that direction.

Modifié par Scipio203, 28 novembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[MichaelStuart]

I think games use to be simpler, so they didn't need tips.
I do think games are easier, happened around the time they let have you save your game (unlimited lives)

[CaptainBlackGold]

About tool tips, I have no comment. At lest all the games I play have the option to turn them off.

About level scaling, prepare for incoming rant; I hate level scaling. I realize that there are game play mechanics that are complicated and affect story progression, but I believe the whole concept robs a game of any real meaning. The higher I grow in level, the more dangerous the enemies become which means in fact, I have not grown at all. Suddenly, all the lower level enemies go extinct or something...

I would prefer areas that are just too strong for low level characters to enter. And here an in-game warning (such as a sign, or tavern keeper's dire warning, or something that gives verisimilitude ) should let the PC know that he is not yet ready to face those opponents. But bandits should not suddenly become "super-ninja, unstoppable forces of nature" just because I leveled up. Beasts should not go from "fluffy bunnies" to "lions and tigers and bears, O my!" just because I got a new skill. And yeah, the "super health bar bosses" is just IMHO, lame.

By the mid to end point of the game, I would prefer lower level enemies to flee in terror when I and my party arrive - or suffer the consequences. I think DAO did it quite well in the final battle against the Dark Spawn when you finally entered the city and they were all one hit kills - it showed that your character had actually accomplished something during the long progression.

I admit that my preferences require a lot more thought and preparation on the Developer's parts to craft interesting and engaging encounters for various level characters - and I will not pretend to know how to advise them. I just know that I hate level scaling and wish they would come up with a better way.

Modifié par CaptainBlackGold, 28 novembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[Jones7602]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

About tool tips, I have no comment. At lest all the games I play have the option to turn them off.

About level scaling, prepare for incoming rant; I hate level scaling. I realize that there are game play mechanics that are complicated and affect story progression, but I believe the whole concept robs a game of any real meaning. The higher I grow in level, the more dangerous the enemies become which means in fact, I have not grown at all. Suddenly, all the lower level enemies go extinct or something...

I would prefer areas that are just too strong for low level characters to enter. And here an in-game warning (such as a sign, or tavern keeper's dire warning, or something that gives verisimilitude ) should let the PC know that he is not yet ready to face those opponents. But bandits should not suddenly become "super-ninja, unstoppable forces of nature" just because I leveled up. Beasts should not go from "fluffy bunnies" to "lions and tigers and bears, O my!" just because I got a new skill. And yeah, the "super health bar bosses" is just IMHO, lame.

By the mid to end point of the game, I would prefer lower level enemies to flee in terror when I and my party arrive - or suffer the consequences. I think DAO did it quite well in the final battle against the Dark Spawn when you finally entered the city and they were all one hit kills - it showed that your character had actually accomplished something during the long progression.

I admit that my preferences require a lot more thought and preparation on the Developer's parts to craft interesting and engaging encounters for various level characters - and I will not pretend to know how to advise them. I just know that I hate level scaling and wish they would come up with a better way.

This. And please let me add, that I miss games where something could go actually wrong and you have to think about what you are doing. Like character development, when was the last time some attribute points actually ment something?

[cJohnOne]

Personally, I love level scaling. Yes, I maybe the only one who does.

[esper]

cJohnOne wrote...

Personally, I love level scaling. Yes, I maybe the only one who does.

No, I do too. Not level scaling actually always ruined my immersion a little, because I suddenly could wade through hordes of enemies, which I quite frankly no matter how strong I was shouldn't be able to do.

[hexaligned]

I need level scaling to enjoy non-linear games. I do not enjoy running around one-shotting everything, unless they can one shot me as well. If I reach a point where I am ever unkillable, unless I fall asleep from boredom at the controls or something, I stop playing. DAO is a good example of this actually, the enemies in that game only scale up to a certain point, I think it's 15. It took me forever to actually play past that point, actually I think it took a mod that "fixed" it before I could play through the rest of the game.

[Nurot]

Yes, level scaling in some way is necessary to keep the gameplay interesting. What I didn't like about DA2 was that my armor and defense got worse with each lavel up. I shouldn't be punished by leveling up, It should make me feel stronger not weaker. Make the enemies tougher instead to balance things.

[hoorayforicecream]

They could just hide the level scaling a bit better. Here's an example:

When you're level 1-10, you fight Goblins. When you're level 11-20, you fight Goblin Warriors. When you're 21-30, you fight Goblin Berserkers. They functionally behave the same way (melee enemy at around the same level as you), but they look a little different (reskinned at each step) and have different creature names when you target them to give the illusion of progress.

[Maria Caliban]

I like that idea. Though at some point, I'd like 'goblins' to no longer be a threat at all.

[Bestyj669]

@ CapitanBlackGold - Glad someone agrees with me

relhart wrote...

I need level scaling to enjoy non-linear games. I do not enjoy running around one-shotting everything, unless they can one shot me as well. If I reach a point where I am ever unkillable, unless I fall asleep from boredom at the controls or something, I stop playing. DAO is a good example of this actually, the enemies in that game only scale up to a certain point, I think it's 15. It took me forever to actually play past that point, actually I think it took a mod that "fixed" it before I could play through the rest of the game.

Dark Souls had no level scaling. Just saying.

If you're immortal and obliterating absolutely everything in a given area it simply means you should have visited it earlier in game. Having common back alley bandits more capable then the kings army just makes no sense whatsoever. DA2's example, killing a dragon in act1 was quicker then killing few bandits in act2. To each their own, but to me it makes more sense if I struggle with an oversized, fire-breathing lizzard then few guys with knives.

EntropicAngel wrote...

Do I even want to know what a "drinking commitment" is?

What am I saying, of course I do.

What I meant with that was: I do spend considerable ammount of my time in a pub, and probably drink considerably more then an average person. Or in other words, I drink like a bastard.

Scipio203 wrote...

Honestly though, I see what you mean, but it's a stretch to say that a few hints is "dumbing down" games.

It is indeed. It's not just the tips/hints (although I do hate those with passion). Why does it feel like I simply can't make a mistake and go somewhere I shouldn't go? (Apart from New Vegas when you can walk into a Deathclaw pretty much right after you started, and die rather quickly). It feels like regardless of what you do you're always able to get away with it.

Edit:

hoorayforicecream wrote...

They could just hide the level scaling a bit better. Here's an example:

When you're level 1-10, you fight Goblins. When you're level 11-20, you fight Goblin Warriors. When you're 21-30, you fight Goblin Berserkers. They functionally behave the same way (melee enemy at around the same level as you), but they look a little different (reskinned at each step) and have different creature names when you target them to give the illusion of progress.

That would almost make me happy. (Assuming the Goblin you fight at level 1 is exactly the same one you fight at level 10)
1-10 - You fight 5 goblins
11-20 - You fight a goblin shaman and 2 ogres
21-30 - You fight a giant
31-40 - You fight a T-Rex
etc etc.
99-100 - You get hit by a low flying comet and die instantly.

Modifié par Bestyj669, 29 novembre 2012 - 07:10 .

[CaptainBlackGold]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

They could just hide the level scaling a bit better. Here's an example:

When you're level 1-10, you fight Goblins. When you're level 11-20, you fight Goblin Warriors. When you're 21-30, you fight Goblin Berserkers. They functionally behave the same way (melee enemy at around the same level as you), but they look a little different (reskinned at each step) and have different creature names when you target them to give the illusion of progress.

While I agree that this is better than just pumping up the health of normal enemies, it still does not deal with what for me is the real issue - character growth. What is the point in leveling a character, if the entire world levels with you?

Realistically, nothing has changed. All the stat improvments, armor and weapons upgrades are virutally useles because they make no real difference - you are still fighting the "same" enemies (albeit in your example, they are reskinned).

The point of leveling your PC ought to be to do things that you could not do before - otherwise why bother except to give the player an artificial sense of accomplishment? Seriously, that makes about as much sense to me as being given one of those "Thanks for Participating" trophies.

Of course, getting rid of enemy scaling means that if you wander into the wrong area, you get killed - quickly. That may be too high a price for some people. I can understand that, especially if someone only plays a game once or twice. The illusion of growth then becomes more important than actual progression.

Granted, as mentioned above, no level scaling means that the design team has a more difficult job in crafting encounters that are tough, but not too tough, arranged within the context of the story to make sense.

But the end result is, I think, a far more satisfactory gaming experience. You really do look forward to that next upgrade in armor/weapon because it can make the difference between winning and losing a battle. You really do try and scrape together enough XP to level up because you are desperate to get that necessary skill improvment because without it, you just can't do something, you need to do.

As it currently is being used in Bioware games, leveling up means almost nothing. It is almost as if leveling is simply something left over from the dim, dark ages of role playing games - a mere formality that we give a head nod to while we get on with the real deal of awesome buttons, flashy animations and cinematic cutscenes.

Don't get me wrong, I like awesome; I like animations and cutscenes. I just want level progression to mean something and that means level scaling needs to be rethought.