227 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

TMZuk wrote...

Sorry to butt in late with a question, that might already be answered.

I am curious, however, how I figure in this? Because, I registered my game online. Since then I have been playing offline. I have not uploaded anything, whatsoever.

I have, however, completed DA:O, more than once. Same with ME and ME2. But, as I play offline, how can Bioware know anything about wether I've finished the game or not? How does this figure in the survey, if at all?

It doesn't. There are always outliers. Just consider that there are literally millions of players (and thus millions of data points), so the actions of a single player really aren't sufficient to move the needle significantly for any specific statistics. Basically, your behavior is somewhat anomolous and within the margin of error.

You'd need to show that a statistically significant number of customers behave the same way, and that those who do report data are not statistically representative of the total players who bought and played the game in order to actually call any of their statistics into question.

[Allan Schumacher]

Most of DA2's first-week sales came from pre-orders according to Bioware. That means Origins had nothing to do with DA2's lower sales and only benefited its sales.

I just want to point out that your conclusion isn't substantiated by the statement you made. You're missing context and other information.

You're made a logical deduction that works within the confines of the assumptions you've made (which, in logic, is perfectly reasonable), but it requires your assumptions to be correct. You don't have enough information to validate that.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 30 novembre 2012 - 08:45 .

[Bernhardtbr]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It doesn't. There are always outliers. Just consider that there are literally millions of players (and thus millions of data points), so the actions of a single player really aren't sufficient to move the needle significantly for any specific statistics. Basically, your behavior is somewhat anomolous and within the margin of error.

You'd need to show that a statistically significant number of customers behave the same way, and that those who do report data are not statistically representative of the total players who bought and played the game in order to actually call any of their statistics into question.

Yeah, if only a few players send reports the result will be a huge sample bias and therefore data not reliable enough to say what people did or enjoyed the most in the game.

One thing that would help would be to, after the game´s ending, ask the player to send his savegame to Bioware for analysis. Not a perfect method (since data from those people who didn´t bother to finish the game won´t be seen), but still.

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:22 .

[upsettingshorts]

Bernhardtbr wrote...

One thing that would help would be to, after the game´s ending, ask the player to send his savegame to Bioware for analysis. Not a perfect method (since data from those people who didn´t bother to finish the game won´t be seen), but still.

A vast number - we're talking millions - of players send telemetry without even being aware of it.

[Maria Caliban]

Bernhardtbr wrote...

Yeah, if only a few players send reports the result will be a huge sample bias and therefore data not reliable enough to say what people did or enjoyed the most in the game.

One thing that would help would be to, after the game´s ending, ask the player to send his savegame to Bioware for analysis. Not a perfect method (since data from those people who didn´t bother to finish the game won´t be seen), but still.

Your suggestion for removing sample bias is to stop taking data from people who don't finish the game (who are the majority) and only take it from people who finish the game (who are the minority) and opt-in to sending it.

You're replacing a non-exclusive opt-out method for a totally exclusive opt-in method. That would lower the amount of information they get dramatically.

It's the exact opposite of what you want to do to remove sample bias.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 30 novembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[Bernhardtbr]

You don´t even know if they get data from people who don´t finish the game... If you have proof or source that they have it, and a statistics of the reasons of WHY said people haven´t finished the game, then by all means post it. I´m not saying they should replace such data collection if it DOES exist, don´t make straw men FFS.

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 30 novembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[upsettingshorts]

Everyone who has:

1) An internet connection on whatever they play the game on
2) Not turned off telemetry in the options

is part of the telemetry data. Period. No further exceptions.

[Bernhardtbr]

Fair enough, but as I said, theren´s no data about WHY they haven´t finished the game (probably the most important data) or WHY people play to the ending several times. In the ME 2 example posted before, there was data for most played class etc etc. But not why they chose said class, through with more analysis naturally some hypothesis will be created.

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 30 novembre 2012 - 01:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

Bernhardtbr wrote...

Fair enough, but as I said, theren´s no data about WHY they haven´t finished the game (probably the most important data) or WHY people play to the ending several times.

That's what focus groups and feedback here and elsewhere are for.

[Bernhardtbr]

People who don´t finish the game seldom come to forums to give said feedback, and thus bias will always exist. It was already said before that only a minority of people frequent the forums and often those aren´t people who disliked the game. Exactly the opposite, fans are usually the ones who make noise.

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 30 novembre 2012 - 01:59 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Bernhardtbr wrote...

Fair enough, but as I said, theren´s no data about WHY they haven´t finished the game (probably the most important data) or WHY people play to the ending several times. In the ME 2 example posted before, there was data for most played class etc etc. But not why they chose said class, through with more analysis naturally some hypothesis will be created.

As stated repeatedly before, telemetry does not answer the "why", it only answers "who", "what", "when", "where", and "how". The "why" comes from the interpretation of this data. You might disagree with the conclusions that Bioware (or any other developer with telemetry data, for that matter) has come up with (or you think they have come up with), but the point is that having reasonably accurate data (a margin of error within a fraction of a percentage point) is still significantly better than having none at all.

They might not know the why, but suppose they are interpreting the data from DAO, and they see (numbers all made up):

- 36% of players defeated the archdemon
- Of those who did not defeat the archdemon, 46% of them started, but never completed the Fade. 38% of them started, but never completed, the Deep Roads. 23% of them started, but never completed, the Brecilian Forest, and only 14% of them started, but never completed, Redcliffe.

Examining further, they can then determine roughly how far most people got in each segment based on the data. What conversations did they choose? Did they large amount of time between interactions? Did they get killed a lot? Where did they spend most of that time? And the best part is that they actually have the answers to those questions.

Doing this can help paint a picture as to why some players quit. It won't be perfect, but there will be actual data to support it instead of anecdotes and intuition.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You of all people wouldn't let your predispositions get in the way of honest roleplaying though, would you?

Not consistently.  But I might engage in some catharsis now and then.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's what focus groups and feedback here and elsewhere are for.

Have you ever been in a focus group?  Most people have no idea why they hold the opinions they do.

I'm often in focus groups (because I have idiosyncratic opinions, and I want them heard), and the people I see there tend to hold positions on issues they've given no thought whatever, and can easily be swayed to adopt very strange positions by a single person doing nothing more than sounding confident (regardless of whether he's even telling the truth).

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Have you ever been in a focus group?  Most people have no idea why they hold the opinions they do.

Hell I don't need to go to focus groups to echo that sentiment.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

2 Scenarios:

I) That we are a part of that majority and our discontent should alarm bioware to fix things and put quality in its writing

II) Maybe what (the minority) we do here is in vain ... maybe the random buyer just buys the game, mindlessly just to have 'a new game'.

[upsettingshorts]

@Legatus Arianus

There is no consistent consensus on the BSN. The Mass Effect 3 endings fiasco came the closest, but even that was divided into several different camps, before we even count the minority that liked the endings.

As such "our discontent" says a lot of different things, some of which resonate with larger groups of players than others I imagine.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 novembre 2012 - 05:20 .

[brushyourteeth]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

2 Scenarios:

I) That we are a part of that majority and our discontent should alarm bioware to fix things and put quality in its writing

II) Maybe what (the minority) we do here is in vain ... maybe the random buyer just buys the game, mindlessly just to have 'a new game'.

Frightening, isn't it? 

[b09boy]

AlanC9 wrote...
Well, like I said, much of the stuff they cut out wasn't actually roleplaying. What I find myself doing a lot in ME2 is trying to manage the order of the investigate options so the conversation makes sense. Occasionally I have an actual choice to make, simce some of Shep's quesitons are awfully dumb, and others imply beliefs. Those are RP choices.

Maybe it's just that ME3 dispelled the illusion?

Well that was sort of the thing.  During ME3 they just threw all their investigate options in together, typically.  ME1 and 2 you  had a bit more option.  This might not seem like much, but when so many of the questions Shepard asks are incredibly stupid, it's nice being able to not choose them.  I also liked having neutral dialogue options and the ability to not give long-winded cheesy speeches.

[Maria Caliban]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

2 Scenarios:

I) That we are a part of that majority and our discontent should alarm bioware to fix things and put quality in its writing

II) Maybe what (the minority) we do here is in vain ... maybe the random buyer just buys the game, mindlessly just to have 'a new game'.

MAOR Scenarios

III) That we are part of that majority and not discontent.
IV) That we are part of a minority and what we 'do here' has impact, but that's not the same as BioWare shaping an entire game to our whim.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

MAOR Scenarios

III) That we are part of that majority and not discontent.
IV) That we are part of a minority and what we 'do here' has impact, but that's not the same as BioWare shaping an entire game to our whim.

It's clear that we are a minority.  The game sells vastly more copies than we see regular posters here.  Therefore, posters are a minority.

I hope we have impact, if not on the game then on each other.

[AlanC9]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bernhardtbr wrote...

One thing that would help would be to, after the game´s ending, ask the player to send his savegame to Bioware for analysis. Not a perfect method (since data from those people who didn´t bother to finish the game won´t be seen), but still.

A vast number - we're talking millions - of players send telemetry without even being aware of it.

And if they do the telemetry right, the save wouldn't tell them much more than the telemetry. It might tell them stuff they didn't think to track when they set up the telemetry, but that's about it.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I hope we have impact, if not on the game then on each other.

Because of you I drink.


Just kidding.  :P:P

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Just kidding.  :P:P

That's a shame.

[David Gaider]

BrotherWarth wrote...
Unless you're asserting that no one who pre-ordered DA2 did so because they enjoyed Origins I don't see how my statement is anything but 100% accurate.

Of course you wouldn't. Just as we can't help but notice that posters who invoke economic data do so with extremely selective perception. I can't help but notice that, when sales data says the exact opposite of one's position, it suddenly becomes irrelevant and unmentioned.

Personally, I really wish that if posters wanted to make an economic argument rather than just talk about their personal feelings/perceptions they try a bit harder not to do it quite so badly. Because unless one's goal in doing so is to sound convincing solely to those who couldn't possibly know any better, it doesn't really help you in any fashion.