193 réponses à ce sujet

[Dalis918]

Well, to dip my ink into the well. (innuendo intended)

I think equality is a great idea. And that was achieved to a degree quite a while ago. But the thing is, people are still going on about equality and women are infact getting more and more rights and privilages. And still expect to keep the special treatment they had before equality to a degree. What we're getting now is not equality, it's inequality in the opposite direction. I've seen advertisements recently for a Women only car insurance policy. Really equal there. But I have not seen any male only insurance policies. Perhaps there is a degree of favoritism towards male drivers in some businesses, but I'd wager they're in trouble soon as somebody decides to sue them over gender discrimination.

Not to mention the results of a divorce. equality my ass in those regards. And do we want to get into child welfare payments by the 'losing' parent. Most men are expected to pay and infact do. Women who somehow fail to win paternity over the child quite often don't. If men don't they get fined and possible jail time. Women don't.

If all you want is equality then go for equality for Both. Not just one or the other. That's when real resentment breeds and causes nasty little wars like this one here in this thread. The advantage here is that this little war is confined to a thread on a forum. In real life they get really nasty and Male orientated groups that fight against feminisim actually are rabid. But they often have to be to get anybody to actually listen to them.

[Stardusk]

Dalis918 wrote...

Well, to dip my ink into the well. (innuendo intended)

I think equality is a great idea. And that was achieved to a degree quite a while ago. But the thing is, people are still going on about equality and women are infact getting more and more rights and privilages. And still expect to keep the special treatment they had before equality to a degree. What we're getting now is not equality, it's inequality in the opposite direction. I've seen advertisements recently for a Women only car insurance policy. Really equal there. But I have not seen any male only insurance policies. Perhaps there is a degree of favoritism towards male drivers in some businesses, but I'd wager they're in trouble soon as somebody decides to sue them over gender discrimination.

Not to mention the results of a divorce. equality my ass in those regards. And do we want to get into child welfare payments by the 'losing' parent. Most men are expected to pay and infact do. Women who somehow fail to win paternity over the child quite often don't. If men don't they get fined and possible jail time. Women don't.

If all you want is equality then go for equality for Both. Not just one or the other. That's when real resentment breeds and causes nasty little wars like this one here in this thread. The advantage here is that this little war is confined to a thread on a forum. In real life they get really nasty and Male orientated groups that fight against feminisim actually are rabid. But they often have to be to get anybody to actually listen to them.

There is some truth to this.

[painforest]

Apl_J wrote...

painforest wrote...
Yes. And can you explain why modeling the males of a species takes precedent over modeling the females? Why isn't there a race where we only see the females, but the males are on the homeworld tending house and making sandwiches or something? 

"THEY ARENT IMPORTANT TO THE GAME"


Well, okay then.

Cool, a quote out of context. Lovely.

This isn't a game bout gender issues. Game Design isn't about accurate representation, its about making a game. If something isn't centripetal to the experience, it isn't necessary. You don't need to see everything just because its a fictional universe. Not because it has a vagina, but because using finite resources to make something they won't use is pointless. Real life race issues aren't represented in the game at all; is BioWare racist? No, the game isn't about that, so it isn't there. Females are there were female perspective is important, and vice versa for men. By the way, you're also forgetting the entire Asari race.

You aren't answering the other part of post. Why was it decided that it was more important to allocate resources towards making like, freaking volus and elcor (two races that are hardly present in the game and play no essential role) rather than making the females of each respective race? Because females aren't important enough. Ok, gotcha. That's sexist.

Why is it that Tali is the only quarian we see in ME1 and she happens to be female, but then ME2 rolls around and what's the first thing we see? Male quarians. Because a species where we only see the females is ridiculous but a species where we only see the males makes sense and people will defend it with their dying breath, apparently.

[painforest]

Dalis918 wrote...

Well, to dip my ink into the well. (innuendo intended)

I think equality is a great idea. And that was achieved to a degree quite a while ago. But the thing is, people are still going on about equality and women are infact getting more and more rights and privilages. And still expect to keep the special treatment they had before equality to a degree. What we're getting now is not equality, it's inequality in the opposite direction. I've seen advertisements recently for a Women only car insurance policy. Really equal there. But I have not seen any male only insurance policies. Perhaps there is a degree of favoritism towards male drivers in some businesses, but I'd wager they're in trouble soon as somebody decides to sue them over gender discrimination.

Not to mention the results of a divorce. equality my ass in those regards. And do we want to get into child welfare payments by the 'losing' parent. Most men are expected to pay and infact do. Women who somehow fail to win paternity over the child quite often don't. If men don't they get fined and possible jail time. Women don't.

If all you want is equality then go for equality for Both. Not just one or the other. That's when real resentment breeds and causes nasty little wars like this one here in this thread. The advantage here is that this little war is confined to a thread on a forum. In real life they get really nasty and Male orientated groups that fight against feminisim actually are rabid. But they often have to be to get anybody to actually listen to them.

They are certainly rabid, but no one is listening to them, that's for sure.

[kyles3]

Getting to choose between lady or dude for every kit would be cool, but what we've got is nothing to sneeze at. I mean, look at Team Fortress 2--total sausage party. I think the ME3 multiplayer team has done an incredible job of representing genders equally and I thank them for it.

[Apl_Juice]

painforest wrote...

You aren't answering the other part of post. Why was it decided that it was more important to allocate resources towards making like, freaking volus and elcor (two races that are hardly present in the game and play no essential role) rather than making the females of each respective race? Because females aren't important enough. Ok, gotcha. That's sexist.

No, its not. Making multiple, diverse races is an easy way to populate the universe. You're ignoring that there are indeed females of each race. Just because they aren't put into the spotlight doesn't mean they aren't there. Where females are very different from men, its noted, like with Krogans. Otherwise, one can assume that they aren't much different from human females.

Why is it that Tali is the only quarian we see in ME1 and she happens to be female, but then ME2 rolls around and what's the first thing we see? Male quarians. Because a species where we only see the females is ridiculous but a species where we only see the males makes sense and people will defend it with their dying breath, apparently.

Again, no. Male Quarians weren't important in ME1, so they weren't there. That's my entire point of what I'm saying. Also, you're forgetting that Tali herself is female, a decision made that could have easily been the opposite without much change to the game. But no, they did it for the sake of equality and she's a better character for it. In ME2, we go to the Migrant Fleet and boom: Male Quarians are necessary. Just because they were repesented first near the beginning has no bearing on anything. Asari could have easily been also male. But no, they aren't; even if they're mono-gendered, they're instrinsically female.

Also, I'd appreciate you cutting it out with the labelling. I'm not attacking you, I'm not calling you anything you aren't; I don't know you, and you don't know me. Stop calling me an MRA, cause I'm not.

Modifié par Apl_J, 29 novembre 2012 - 08:59 .

[Dalis918]

If they had nothing but female quarians they'd probably get moaned at for providing fanservice. Dem hips


Edit: Too much fanservice that is:whistle:

Modifié par Dalis918, 29 novembre 2012 - 09:02 .

[kyles3]

Dalis918 wrote...

If they had nothing but female quarians they'd probably get moaned at for providing fanservice. Dem hips

Like the male Quarians don't provide fanservice. Dem pecs. 

[painforest]

Apl_J wrote...

painforest wrote...

You aren't answering the other part of post. Why was it decided that it was more important to allocate resources towards making like, freaking volus and elcor (two races that are hardly present in the game and play no essential role) rather than making the females of each respective race? Because females aren't important enough. Ok, gotcha. That's sexist.

No, its not. Making multiple, diverse races is an easy way to populate the universe. You're ignoring that there are indeed females of each race. Just because they aren't put into the spotlight doesn't mean they aren't there. Where females are very different from men, its noted, like with Krogans. Otherwise, one can assume that they aren't much different from human females.

Why is it that Tali is the only quarian we see in ME1 and she happens to be female, but then ME2 rolls around and what's the first thing we see? Male quarians. Because a species where we only see the females is ridiculous but a species where we only see the males makes sense and people will defend it with their dying breath, apparently.

Again, no. Male Quarians weren't important in ME1, so they weren't there. That's my entire point of what I'm saying. Also, you're forgetting that Tali herself is female, a decision made that could have easily been the opposite without much change to the game. But no, they did it for the sake of equality and she's a better character for it. In ME2, we go to the Migrant Fleet and boom: Male Quarians are necessary. Just because they were repesented first near the beginning has no bearing on anything. Asari could have easily been also male. But no, they aren't; even if they're mono-gendered, they're instrinsically female.

Also, I'd appreciate you cutting it out with the labelling. I'm not attacking you, I'm not calling you anything you aren't; I don't know you, and you don't know me. Stop calling me an MRA, cause I'm not.

Omg. You're totally missing the point. Yeah, they aren't important to the game. Because they don't even exist. And sorry, but "they're there, they just aren't HERE" isn't a good enough explaination for me or for many other people. If they were actually willing to spend the time modeling them, then they could be important. And they could also populate the universe which is noticably lackin females.


Also, I did not call you an MRA wut r u even talking about

[Dalis918]

Data7 wrote...

Dalis918 wrote...

If they had nothing but female quarians they'd probably get moaned at for providing fanservice. Dem hips

Ohhh you did not. 
They did have only female quarians. And you know what? 
They shot out some male qurian playable characters ASAP.
We're getting another one soon too. 

I was refering to the quarian ships, but eh, all gamers being men sterotypes, enforced by society (no discussion on which gender it is dominated by. It's Dominated by non-gamers. Which is bad)... I can't say I really noticed that there weren't male quarian about since there were no female turians or krogan. And you know what? I didn't notice that either. I Was too busy in the beginning zipping around on my female Vanguard and blowing stuff up with my male soldier.



EDIT: I think we can all agree however, in all seriousness. there is no need for female vorcha. Unless there is a huge amount of gender dimophisim in that species.

Modifié par Dalis918, 29 novembre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Deucetipher]

Stardusk, taking a single quote and using it to characterize an entire, fairly diverse movement isn't very good argumentation. I think you know this, as you seem to be well-educated. There are extremists in any groups, particularly in activist groups. For every Robin Morgan (who I haven't actually read, I admit), there is a Camille Paglia. Say what you will about Paglia, there is no man-hate there.

Let's be honest: grabbing that kind of singular, unrepresentative quote and using it to characterize your opponent's position is veering dangerously close to strawman argumentation. I understand the value in such statements as a rhetorical device, but several of the people commenting here seem to be intelligent, rational thinkers. Such theatrics are not necessary.

[Dalis918]

Data7 wrote...

Dalis918 wrote...

EDIT: I think we can all agree however, in all seriousness. there is no need for female vorcha. Unless there is a huge amount of gender dimophisim in that species.

Vorcha are like clownfish. They change their gender when they need to/as seen fit. 
Only I don't think Vorcha are ruled by a matriarch vorcha. (like clownfish are)
But you get my point.  

You have now terrified me with this revelation. 

[himohillo]

Dalis918 wrote...

Data7 wrote...

Dalis918 wrote...

EDIT: I think we can all agree however, in all seriousness. there is no need for female vorcha. Unless there is a huge amount of gender dimophisim in that species.

Vorcha are like clownfish. They change their gender when they need to/as seen fit. 
Only I don't think Vorcha are ruled by a matriarch vorcha. (like clownfish are)
But you get my point.  

You have now terrified me with this revelation. 

Ehh...

[Nissun]

So many terrible people in this terrible thread.

[Dalis918]

..... It Burns! It Burns like hygiene to the unclean! Oh god why my eyes!

[Syrus101]

yes plix!

that bubble skill she had was sweet

[Apl_Juice]

painforest wrote...
Omg. You're totally missing the point. Yeah, they aren't important to the game. Because they don't even exist. And sorry, but "they're there, they just aren't HERE" isn't a good enough explaination for me or for many other people. If they were actually willing to spend the time modeling them, then they could be important. And they could also populate the universe which is noticably lackin females. 

Also, I did not call you an MRA wut r u even talking about

I get your point, I'm trying to tell you why its not as important for them to be in the spotlight. In entertainment media, women are utilized when being female is a plot/character-central device, such as with motherhood, love, weakness, frailty, etc. When we see a frail character, a women or a child characterizes that better than a male does. It gets the point across better. That's sexist, no doubt. That's where I agree with your point.

Video Games have another excuse not to use females on top of that, in that capturing females accurately is another cost altogether. Until popular opinion on women's roles are changed, there's just no point. Hell, when you consider money, there's still no point.

Also, I assumed with your sarcasm that your MRA comment was directed at me. Sorry if it wasn't.

[painforest]

Apl_J wrote...

painforest wrote...
Omg. You're totally missing the point. Yeah, they aren't important to the game. Because they don't even exist. And sorry, but "they're there, they just aren't HERE" isn't a good enough explaination for me or for many other people. If they were actually willing to spend the time modeling them, then they could be important. And they could also populate the universe which is noticably lackin females. 

Also, I did not call you an MRA wut r u even talking about

I get your point, I'm trying to tell you why its not as important for them to be in the spotlight. In entertainment media, women are utilized when being female is a plot/character-central device, such as with motherhood, love, weakness, frailty, etc. When we see a frail character, a women or a child characterizes that better than a male does. It gets the point across better. That's sexist, no doubt. That's where I agree with your point.

Video Games have another excuse not to use females on top of that, in that capturing females accurately is another cost altogether. Until popular opinion on women's roles are changed, there's just no point. Hell, when you consider money, there's still no point.

Also, I assumed with your sarcasm that your MRA comment was directed at me. Sorry if it wasn't.

There is no excuse good enough. There's just no point? Okay, whatever, but I think you're in the miniority with that opinion. What I don't get is that Bioware presents itself as a company that values female character and that cares about equality in their games. Totally ignoring the female side of a race for two entire games does not mesh well with that image. And I do not see how anyone can defend that decision and not see it as anything but sexism. You seem to get that, which is why I'm confused as to why you're still defending it.

[Apl_Juice]

painforest wrote...
There is no excuse good enough. There's just no point? Okay, whatever, but I think you're in the miniority with that opinion. What I don't get is that Bioware presents itself as a company that values female character and that cares about equality in their games. Totally ignoring the female side of a race for two entire games does not mesh well with that image. And I do not see how anyone can defend that decision and not see it as anything but sexism. You seem to get that, which is why I'm confused as to why you're still defending it. 

I think its a matter of perspective. I think using resources to create the best game possible is preferable to modelling females, especially when BioWare represents women so well compared to the rest of the media. If BioWare had infinite resources, then yea, I'd love to see everything the universe had to offer. One more point, its also a possibility that BioWare doesn't know what they're yet doing with each female, in regards to how different they'd be. Even the female Turian wasn't made until ME2 when that comic came out. Anyway, nice debate. Read a few points I hadn't previously considered.