Herr Uhl wrote...
It was hilarious in ME3 when you stood and listened in on arguments and then supported someone, followed by them ignoring you and finding the obvious solution to both their problems.
ioannisdenton wrote...
No!!! we do not want autodialogue a la ME3!!!!
the flow is fine!!! do not feed them ideas please man!! i beg you!
David Gaider wrote...
SpEcIaLRyAn wrote...
Honestly i'd argue that in ME2 the conversation flow was just fine. DA2 it was fine. In ME3 they sacrificed dialogue options for more cinematic conversations.Which made "my Shepard" feel like someone else's Shepard at times. It was an unneeded change. If they can make conversations flow better without putting in auto-dialogue than i'll be okay with it. If not than leave it the way it is.
We're not using auto-dialogue like it existed in ME3. It will be the same as in DA2-- meaning we only use it when it stems directly off a choice that has already been made or in cutscenes/banter where the line is innocuous (and no opinions are being expressed or decisions made). In fact, there are things that will mean we'll need it even less.
This is just a stylistic difference between Mass Effect's approach and Dragon Age's, and it won't change.
Foolsfolly wrote...
SpEcIaLRyAn wrote...
Honestly i'd argue that in ME2 the conversation flow was just fine. DA2 it was fine. In ME3 they sacrificed dialogue options for more cinematic conversations.Which made "my Shepard" feel like someone else's Shepard at times. It was an unneeded change. If they can make conversations flow better without putting in auto-dialogue than i'll be okay with it. If not than leave it the way it is.
To be honest I didn't think there was a conversation flow problem in ME1, ME2, or DA2. The lack of agency over what Shepard says in ME3 was noted, however. The most aggrivating of them being the time Shepard apologizes and moans and damn near weeps over Thessia when I would have played the entire scene much much more angrily since my Shepard tends to be more Kirk than Picard whenever given the choice.
And he doesn't lose. And he gets angry when he's about to lose.
Other play-throughs would have enjoyed the apologizing sad dialogue and all but that first Shepard wouldn't have said those things. It was a nice big step backwards for the team and franchise.
Nice to know Gaider and Laidlaw aren't going that way... but I believe I've read that a few times now on these boards. Still, nice to hear.
Unrelated, BasilKarlo I saw your name and thought "Isn't that one of the Clayfaces?" Wiki'd Clayface and sure enough. ...made me smile. I disagree with your opinion but it was cool to see the name.
David Gaider wrote...
SpEcIaLRyAn wrote...
Honestly i'd argue that in ME2 the conversation flow was just fine. DA2 it was fine. In ME3 they sacrificed dialogue options for more cinematic conversations.Which made "my Shepard" feel like someone else's Shepard at times. It was an unneeded change. If they can make conversations flow better without putting in auto-dialogue than i'll be okay with it. If not than leave it the way it is.
We're not using auto-dialogue like it existed in ME3. It will be the same as in DA2-- meaning we only use it when it stems directly off a choice that has already been made or in cutscenes/banter where the line is innocuous (and no opinions are being expressed or decisions made). In fact, there are things that will mean we'll need it even less.
This is just a stylistic difference between Mass Effect's approach and Dragon Age's, and it won't change.
Fiacre wrote...
Just now, for example, I was playing through Aveline's Act 3 companion quest and confronted Jeven. My Hawke had sided with Petrice, so I got the special dialogue option "Some of you where with Varnell." I was curious, so I chose it -- Hawke says, "Hear me! I am your Champion! I've stood with you against the Qunari!" while gesticulating and facing the... uh, mob. (The very... tiny mob.) It really is like the start of a speech. It's not something that sounds any good on it's own. But Jeven complains that this isn't about Hakw, the aveline tells him he'll be left with less than nothing this time, and the fight starts.
And it isn't just this scene -- there are a lot of scenes where you end up getting the same results regardless of response that don't flow too well, depending on which option you chose. I'm... not sure how much work it would be to fix this, but I think it could help make the conversations more immersive.
In Exile wrote...
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about it breaking the flow. The paraphrase makes no sense (compared to the line) but I haven't played this scene this way ever, (never had aggressive Hawke) so I have actually no idea what the flow is.
DA:O always had this problem, because Bioware games have this problem. Sometimes the options are silly. DA:O hides it better because of the full text.
But other things that break the flow were DA:O's "more questions" ("Can I get back to my other questions" "Yeah, sure, whatever dude, why are you asking me for permission?") and DA2s investigate, where the tone of the questions (inquisitive) can totally not jive with the dialogue option you pick.
Fiacre wrote...
What happens is that Hawke starts this speech, then Jeven interupts rather weakly (making you wonder that if Hawke is starting this grand speech, why doesn't he just ignore Jeven? Particularly an agressive Hawke) then Aveline and Jeven just continue with their dialogue that they always have, no matter what option you pick. The transition of Hawke gearing up for some speech to manipulate the mob and then just shutting up and letting Aveline and Jeven argue didn't feel natural.
True... DA:O really just hid it better for the most part. And I agree that investigate option can be really pretty bad. Particularly if they themselves are somehwat judging and they you say something completely different, because of the paraphrase confusion. Or you just ask a lot of questions and then suddenly respiond to what was said five minutes ago...
David Gaider wrote...
SpEcIaLRyAn wrote...
Honestly i'd argue that in ME2 the conversation flow was just fine. DA2 it was fine. In ME3 they sacrificed dialogue options for more cinematic conversations.Which made "my Shepard" feel like someone else's Shepard at times. It was an unneeded change. If they can make conversations flow better without putting in auto-dialogue than i'll be okay with it. If not than leave it the way it is.
We're not using auto-dialogue like it existed in ME3. It will be the same as in DA2-- meaning we only use it when it stems directly off a choice that has already been made or in cutscenes/banter where the line is innocuous (and no opinions are being expressed or decisions made). In fact, there are things that will mean we'll need it even less.
This is just a stylistic difference between Mass Effect's approach and Dragon Age's, and it won't change.
In Exile wrote...
Ah, I get what you mean. Yes, that's a problem. I think that's just an option that didn't really pan out. But I see what you mean about it being a problem.
DA:O is the same way, in terms of investigate. It's just a feature of asking all of your questions before the dialogue, and it's the problem of info-dump NPCs. But that's just a staple of RPGs, and Bioware can't conceivably cut that away without more ire.
I personally found DA:O and DA2 to be the same in this regard (well, technically, I find DA:O to be worse, but the silence always breaks the flow for me).
Fiacre wrote...
Mhm. I always felt the silence hid it more, in both cases, which is probably why I find it more jarring in DA2, but I also like silents PCs a lot ( I don't dislike voice ones, though).
I'd advocate having more reactive dialogue -- rather than and NPC giving one line in reaction to you snarling at them and the saying the same thing they'd have said you'd been nice of made a joke, have it colour the whole conversation, as well as having investigate options move the conversation forward or change the responses avaliable to you in reaction to the new information reveived.
But I don't doubt people would be up in arms about these things, particularly investigate not being "safe" any more.
David Gaider wrote...
We're not using auto-dialogue like it existed in ME3. It will be the same as in DA2-- meaning we only use it when it stems directly off a choice that has already been made or in cutscenes/banter where the line is innocuous (and no opinions are being expressed or decisions made). In fact, there are things that will mean we'll need it even less.
This is just a stylistic difference between Mass Effect's approach and Dragon Age's, and it won't change.
Thank you! This is one of those things that I would normally take for granted after launch. After playing ME3 though, I can't really express how thankful I am to hear you at the DA team are continuing with DA2's PC dialogue approach. I'm in the process of replaying DA2 right now, and the difference to me is like night and day. ME3 frustrated me to no end with the autodialogue, which oftentimes would have Shepard express an opinion which differed from my own, or an opinion I had him express in ME1 or 2. With DA2, I'm like a kid at a playground with all the dialogue options, especially with the personality/tone indicators.
In Exile wrote...
The problem with that, though, is cost. Lots more branching dialouge means less dialogue overall, because the cost of reactivity is a shorter game.
That's the it doesn't make any sense problem. Why can't I go back to my other questions? How is that at all sensible? If I were really having a conversation, I could just keep asking until I'm told off.
Fiacre wrote...
Indeed, which is rather unfortunate. Though in all honesty, I could live with resources being relocated form environment and graphics to story if that'd balance it out, but I'd probably be in the minority there.
Really? It happens to me all the time. I ask a question, the conversation goes ina completely different direction.
Maybe someone offended the other, maybe you're just talking about another topic now and by the time the conversation ends and the other party leaves, you simply haven't gotten around to asking your question (happened to me when talking to a friend just two days ago), maybe something else grabs your attention and the previous question gets pushed back, because hey, someone just revealed something important, why would I ask them about something entirely different? Or maybe the NPC indeed gets fed up with your constant questions. I'd love for NPCs to do that more. "MY PRIVATE LIFE IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER :|"
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