271 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

In recent discussions, it has come up that, with the Circle no longer aligned with the Chantry as of the end of Asunder, a new system of containing/training mages will have to arise. Elsewise, untrained mages would fall to demons left and right and the world would be torn apart. That's what the original Inquisition rose to eliminate.

So, my question is: How should mages be treated in the new system? Harsher? Kinder? Stricter?

My idea: The Circle remains, as a mandatory school, not a prison. Young mages will be brought in and trained. Should they pass their Harrowing, they are allowed to leave the Circle, should they choose to do so. Phalacteries would still be made for the purpose of tracking mages that become maleficar or abominations. Teams of templars and mages would exist as a policing force against these threats. Demonology would be conducted only within the Circle, with extensive precautions in place. I doubt I covered everything, but it's a start.

note: Please do not quote the entire OP. It takes up more space than necessary.

[Fuggyt]

I've read your plan before in another thread and you can probably already can guess my take on this, but you're an intelligent and reasonable person so I'll give you my opinion anyway. I see very little difference between a "mandatory school" and a prison, especially when "young mages will be brought in." Brought in or rounded up? What is the difference between being "brought in" and being kidnapped? What if the young mage doesn't want to go? What if the young mage's family doesn't want to relinquish her? Then we're back to coercion, which needs must always depend on violence or the threat thereof. And what of the phylacteries? Tracking chips might be appropriate for your dog, but how about for your sister? The problem is in the "mandatory" part. Once you start mandating requirements for other people, you are on the slippery slope to totalitarianism. Consider your phrase, "should they pass their Harrowing." And if they should not, they are to be killed or tranquilized? Why should they be harrowed in the first place? Harrowing itself is a loaded word, implying culling and the destruction of those deemed weak. Who does the deeming? What is their moral authority? The system you describe may seem kinder and gentler but it still retains the most odious aspects of the system that already exists throughout Thedas. It's like slavery in the modern world, which technically does not exist, yet there is still plenty of forced labor and bonded servitude. The difference between a **** and a courtesan is merely semantics. Let me ask you point blank: If you were a mage, would you submit? If your child was a mage, would you hand her over? I'll be very interested to read your response and develop this discussion, hopefully without the arrogance and vituperation that so often characterizes this debate (which, by the way, I never seem to tire of).

[Auintus]

@Fuggyt
Untrained mages are a threat by their mere existence. Mages absolutely have to be trained, and the weak must still be weeded out. I will admit, the only significant change mine proposes is allowing mages free after their Harrowing(which is the name of the ritual, I didn't choose it.)
Tracking chips, yes. My sister is an idiotic(rant over family issues) who can't even(more ranting) so yes, she definitely needs a tracking chip. More to the point, anyone would only have a reason to use these phalacteries should the mage turn criminal, so I see little reason for concern.
If their child will come back, if they would be allowed to see them, then why would any parent deny their child training that could save their life? I would submit, I would encourage my child to do so. The great change I propose is that it is only temporary, the only thing I take offense to in the current Circle. It is an improvement.
If I missed anything, remind me. It's hard to find specific complaints in your post.

Modifié par Auintus, 30 novembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[xsdob]

Fuggyt wrote...

I've read your plan before in another thread and you can probably already can guess my take on this, but you're an intelligent and reasonable person so I'll give you my opinion anyway. I see very little difference between a "mandatory school" and a prison, especially when "young mages will be brought in." Brought in or rounded up? What is the difference between being "brought in" and being kidnapped? What if the young mage doesn't want to go? What if the young mage's family doesn't want to relinquish her? Then we're back to coercion, which needs must always depend on violence or the threat thereof. And what of the phylacteries? Tracking chips might be appropriate for your dog, but how about for your sister? The problem is in the "mandatory" part. Once you start mandating requirements for other people, you are on the slippery slope to totalitarianism. Consider your phrase, "should they pass their Harrowing." And if they should not, they are to be killed or tranquilized? Why should they be harrowed in the first place? Harrowing itself is a loaded word, implying culling and the destruction of those deemed weak. Who does the deeming? What is their moral authority? The system you describe may seem kinder and gentler but it still retains the most odious aspects of the system that already exists throughout Thedas. It's like slavery in the modern world, which technically does not exist, yet there is still plenty of forced labor and bonded servitude. The difference between a **** and a courtesan is merely semantics. Let me ask you point blank: If you were a mage, would you submit? If your child was a mage, would you hand her over? I'll be very interested to read your response and develop this discussion, hopefully without the arrogance and vituperation that so often characterizes this debate (which, by the way, I never seem to tire of).

About mages being "brought in" and them not wanting to go. Kindergardners don't want to go to school the first time either, nor would many students want to go to a school. Should schools be abolished for kidnapping and imprisionment? What of boarding schools? Should they be outlawed as well?

Parents would consent to send their childern to get training so their childern do not become horribly twisted monsters and die IE CONNER AND FENRYAL, who have shown that home schooling a mage does not work. They need some way to teach them, someone experienced and with a large amount of experience to keep them alive while they learn magic. Apostates learn for masters, or more than likley do given what we've seen, and basically go through the same thing, becoming apprentacnes and essentially slave interns to do what their master orders to learn their powers.

Also, I've never seen a system of slavery where the slave was allowed a test to earn their freedom, none that I can readily recall anyway. You are distorting the mages plight with that of, say, the plight of the elves in tevinter who are in that position because of mages who came to power. But let's not talk about real slavery in thedas when we can talk about the metaphorical slavery of mages who aren't forced into labor, starved to death, experimented on, and than brutally killed for the fun of it.

It just seems your view is a mighty bit distorted here.

[Auintus]

xsdob wrote...

Parents would consent to send their childern to get training so their childern do not become horribly twisted monsters and die IE CONNER AND FENRYAL, who have shown that home schooling a mage does not work. They need some way to teach them, someone experienced and with a large amount of experience to keep them alive while they learn magic. Apostates learn for masters, or more than likley do given what we've seen, and basically go through the same thing, becoming apprentacnes and essentially slave interns to do what their master orders to learn their powers.

I'd just like to point out that Malcolm Hawke did a very good job homeschooling his child(ren), though I am aware that he is the exception rather than the rule.

Modifié par Auintus, 30 novembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Could the system be tweaked to provide the option of being educated closer to home?

[Vit246]

*SUBJECT TO ONGOING EDITS*

Among other things.

- All mages will be taught everything there is to know about demons to counter them, THEN they take the Harrowing, voluntarily, at the time of their choosing, fully informed of what it is. No more throwing mages to the wolves.

- All templars will be trained as a secular force, not zealots, and trained in "mage sensitivity".

- Any mages accused or even suspected of a crime or attempting crime will be afforded rights such a a public trial, to face his accuser and any evidence etc. We don't need a repeat of Jowan.

- Tranquility will cease being an arbitrary automatic punishment. It will require agreement / consent on both sides. The express agreement between both First Enchanter and Knight Commander. Maybe a vote of some kind.

- Reasonable privacy. No more constant 24 hour surveillance and building of distrust. No more restrictions or banning on mage relationships, marriage, children / family.

- Anti-magic Chantry doctrine will cease to be taught at least inside the Circles to reduce mage resentment and self-hatred.

- Counter-measures against blood magic will be taught, satisfying any curiosity of mages and de-incentivizing any malicious intent of mages.

- Shut down Kirkwall as a Circle location. The Veil there is hopeless.

- All templars (if possible) and Circle mages will be taught how to actually detect demonic possession using that spell from Merill and Anders.

- Rivaini mages will be consulted on how to discover and communicate with benign spirits, particularly in the interests of spirit healers. Also, the possibility of having emotionally stable Circle mages being willingly "possessed" by benign spirits and thus immunized against demonic possession and abominations.

- A Templar Internal Affairs that is actually competent. The Chantry Seekers are crap. 7 years of an unchecked Meredith along with an incompetent boss Grand Cleric and the Seekers still don't know why everything happened the way it did. Serious reprimands, punishments, and executions against Templars who break the law, torture, rape and murder mages and advocate anything like a "Tranquil Solution". 

Modifié par Vit246, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:37 .

[Auintus]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Could the system be tweaked to provide the option of being educated closer to home?

Maybe, Unfortunately, Circles cannot be established everywhere. Fereldan had just the one, I believe. So mage children from both Redcliffe and Denerim(a considerable distance apart) would have to be brought to the same location. That may not be an option, simply due to resources, unless, perhaps, you have a solution?

[PsychoBlonde]

I don't think there's a way to build an alternative Circle system. What needs to change is the underlying culture. A valuable first step might be to replace the Holy Roller templars with . . . dwarves. Dwarves are naturally magic-resistant and as a consequence not particularly afraid of mages. Nor do they seem inclined to be timid or squeamish. Plus, the dwarves have access to lyrium in quantity, and unrefined lyrium is deadly to mages. Seems like a good combination for keeping feisty mages under control without resorting to KILL EVERYONE!!! tactics. The mages can train by using their magic to keep the darkspawn under control. If they're busy and tired, with tons of Deep Roads to explore and crazy dwarven antics to witness, they're going to be a lot less interested in fretting over their condition. Plus, they can earn wealth independently this way, getting paid for valuable discoveries and for guard duty. That, and it's dangerous enough work that the truly weak and unstable will get weeded out without much need for a Harrowing.

It'd only take a few mages (possibly even ONE mage) to go to Orzammar or Kal-Sharok and offer their services to get this started. Then they can start advertising for apprentices.

Another important thing to do would be to make it a more personal system. None of this "a big council makes decisions for all of magedom" business. One teacher, one student. And you have to be vetted before you're allowed to take a student. No fraternities, councils, organizations, meetings, none of that. Put a lot of resentful people together, and they'll work themselves into a froth. Keep them apart, let them work out their own methods, and they'll become so individualistic that they'll never do anything in groups except bicker.

So, there's my alternate "circle" plan. Recruit dwarves. Put the mages to some serious hard work. Personal instruction. If it's managed well, mages would be monetarily self-sufficient or even independently wealthy by the time they're ready to go out on their own. They'll have valuable skills that can land them in lucrative, luxurious positions. And they'll be accustomed to being around people who have serious, active, anti-mage protection, so they'll have a MUCH more accurate view of their relative "power".

Fat, happy, self-satisfied, un-united mages won't turn to blood magic or go on murdersprees. Why bother, when you know all that you'll achieve will be a pitchfork-bearing mob and an unsightly smear?

Granted, the smugness levels may be near-toxic.  But that's a small price to pay.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 30 novembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[xsdob]

Auintus wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Parents would consent to send their childern to get training so their childern do not become horribly twisted monsters and die IE CONNER AND FENRYAL, who have shown that home schooling a mage does not work. They need some way to teach them, someone experienced and with a large amount of experience to keep them alive while they learn magic. Apostates learn for masters, or more than likley do given what we've seen, and basically go through the same thing, becoming apprentacnes and essentially slave interns to do what their master orders to learn their powers.

I'd just like to point out that Malcolm Hawke did a very good job homeschooling his child(ren), though I am aware that he is the exception rather than the rule.

Okay, because I was going to bring up flemeth as the example of why apostate masters can be a little...dangerous.

Better to get them trained at the circle where they can see their teachers credentials than an apostate who might be trying to steal your body or sacrifice you to raise an unholy demon from the fade or such stuff.

Sort of like getting someone without a liscense or cirtification to teach your kid a trade.

[Auintus]

Vit246 wrote...

Among other things.

- All mages will be taught everything there is to know about demons to counter them, THEN they take the Harrowing at the time of their choosing, fully informed of what it is.

- All templars will be trained as a secular force, not zealots, and trained in "mage sensitivity".

- Any mages accused or even suspected of a crime or attempting crime will be afforded rights such a a public trial, to face his accuser and any evidence etc. We don't need a repeat of Jowan.

- Tranquility will require the express agreement of both First Enchanter and Knight Commander

- Reasonable privacy. No more restrictions or banning on mage relationships, marriage, children / family.

- anti-magic Chantry doctrine will cease to be taught at least in the Circles to prevent resentment and self-hatred.

- Counter-measures against blood magic will be taught, satisfying any curiosity of mages and de-incentivizing any malicious intent of mages.

Yes then, no. Demons are shrewed beings and if a mage is warned beforehand of the contents of the Harrowing, it would lose it's lesson of "Always be on your guard."

I agree, though I would not say that all templars are zealots, nor that they should hesitate to cut down a mage should the need arise. Need, not just a whim. I read into one of Gaider's statements that sometimes mages don't even know that a demon is trying to get inside. We can't give that away.

Definitely.

Sounds agreeable. A recommendation of the apprentice's mentor, then confirmation from both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter.

Within the Circle, one may want to avoid such relationships, since they will be allowed out, though I agree on more privacy.

Within the Circles, yes. Keili was one of the most tragic figures in DAO. I always felt bad that I couldn't help her. However, as this only covers the Circles, we cannnot dictate what the Chantry teaches outside.

Makes sense. Anything else?

Modifié par Auintus, 30 novembre 2012 - 05:34 .

[xsdob]

@psychoblade, isn't that pretty much telling the mages to become slaves to the dwarfs? I mean, I may not know much, but I can take a gander that a none-dwarf, no matter how useful, is still going to be pretty low on the caste system.

Also the mortality rate for the mages will go through the roof, a lot more than the circles could, sicne the deep roads are pretty much a place people are sent to go and die, having them train there is going to result in large casualties than compare to the safe and controlled environment of the towers.

Also, making it so they will be unable to cooperate might shoot us in the foot, especially when the next blight occurs and their too busy trying to show off and gain fame and status to actually be helpful in the battle.

And what happens to mages that don't get vetted? They still need to learn magic, and are still at risk of becoming abominations.

Do we just kill them? Send them into the deeproads to act as target practice for those who are picked? That seems like something the dwarves would do becasue why should they care? These are just a bunch of low rank surface dwellers, not someone of actually high caste to worry about.

[Auintus]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Another important thing to do would be to make it a more personal system. None of this "a big council makes decisions for all of magedom" business. One teacher, one student. And you have to be vetted before you're allowed to take a student. No fraternities, councils, organizations, meetings, none of that. Put a lot of resentful people together, and they'll work themselves into a froth. Keep them apart, let them work out their own methods, and they'll become so individualistic that they'll never do anything in groups except bicker.

So, there's my alternate "circle" plan. Recruit dwarves. Put the mages to some serious hard work. Personal instruction. If it's managed well, mages would be monetarily self-sufficient or even independently wealthy by the time they're ready to go out on their own. They'll have valuable skills that can land them in lucrative, luxurious positions. And they'll be accustomed to being around people who have serious, active, anti-mage protection, so they'll have a MUCH more accurate view of their relative "power".

Note the bolded sections and get back to me on that.

I honestly do not like that idea. The Circle, even my Circle, may be kinda harsh, but unless I misunderstood, your throwing mages to the wolves, or darkspawn, whatever. That teaches mages to place their own survival above anything else.
In addition, if a "master" is a maleficar, and teaches their student the same, you have two problems for the price of one. Which is why I think education should be a universal thing.
Also, mage-broodmother. I don't like the sound of that.

[Auintus]

xsdob wrote...

Okay, because I was going to bring up flemeth as the example of why apostate masters can be a little...dangerous.

Better to get them trained at the circle where they can see their teachers credentials than an apostate who might be trying to steal your body or sacrifice you to raise an unholy demon from the fade or such stuff.

Sort of like getting someone without a license or certification to teach your kid a trade.

Yeah, we'll want an official cirriculum.

[TCBC_Freak]

I may be misremembering, but your "alternative Circle" sounds like what the Circle was originally supposed to be when it was established yes? It has become what it is today after centuries of vitriol from the two main factions involved (the Circle and the Templar) after the Tevinter Circle basically fell apart and magistrates rose to power again. Then the other Circles at the behest of the Templar made it a life time commitment in the "schools for magic" as it were.

Am I remembering this right? Or did I just imagine it happened like that?

[PsychoBlonde]

Auintus wrote...

In addition, if a "master" is a maleficar, and teaches their student the same, you have two problems for the price of one. Which is why I think education should be a universal thing.
Also, mage-broodmother. I don't like the sound of that.

You mean, you'd rather let someone like Uldred have access to HUNDREDS of students and other mages?  That turned out really well, didin't it.  Yes, you could wind up with TWO problems.  That's vastly better than several HUNDRED, and they'll both be surrounded by dwarves who only have to slip them a bit of lyrium and whoops, no more maleficar.

Considering that turning blood magic and demons on people is extremely contra-survival, I don't see any problem with inculcating mages with a survival orientation.  The problematic ones don't have a survival orientation.  They have a power-orientation or a desperation orientation.  People who want to live and see a pleasant, none-too-strenuous future for themselves are cooperative.  It's the ones who would rather die than live like this that you have to worry about.

The Circle and the Imperium are both centralized organizations of mages, and both are extremely bad.  A decentralized, professional system has a lot of benefits in contrast.

[TCBC_Freak]

Auintus wrote...


Note the bolded sections and get back to me on that.

I honestly do not like that idea. The Circle, even my Circle, may be kinda harsh, but unless I misunderstood, your throwing mages to the wolves, or darkspawn, whatever. That teaches mages to place their own survival above anything else.
In addition, if a "master" is a maleficar, and teaches their student the same, you have two problems for the price of one. Which is why I think education should be a universal thing.
Also, mage-broodmother. I don't like the sound of that.

Those are around, it is what the Darkspawn Emissars come from.

[Raydiva]

Auintus wrote...

In recent discussions, it has come up that, with the Circle no longer aligned with the Chantry as of the end of Asunder, a new system of containing/training mages will have to arise. Elsewise, untrained mages would fall to demons left and right and the world would be torn apart. That's what the original Inquisition rose to eliminate.

So, my question is: How should mages be treated in the new system? Harsher? Kinder? Stricter?

My idea: The Circle remains, as a mandatory school, not a prison. Young mages will be brought in and trained. Should they pass their Harrowing, they are allowed to leave the Circle, should they choose to do so. Phalacteries would still be made for the purpose of tracking mages that become maleficar or abominations. Teams of templars and mages would exist as a policing force against these threats. Demonology would be conducted only within the Circle, with extensive precautions in place. I doubt I covered everything, but it's a start.

note: Please do not quote the entire OP. It takes up more space than necessary.

I always thought the use of phalacteries as being hypocritical on the part of the whole circle thing.  They are using blood to track mages...blood magic.  And the Hallowing?  Demon based magic.

I like part of what you are saying.  All children should be tested and if proven to have mage give taken in for training.  Parents are free to visit the children on holidays and special occasions.  A student can even be given a leave of absence in rare cases (ie death in the family).  Once training and reasonable testing is complete, they are free to return home or where-ever they choose. 

By testing I don't mean the Hallowing.  Why are mages forced to take the Hallowing?  To prove they can not be corrupted?  Almost every mage I've seen corrupted has already gone through the Hallowing.  More often, I've seen the non-hallowed Apostates (sp?) fight off demons better.  Maybe the Hallowing actually makes the mage more open to demon control by being exposed to dark forces in the fade without any real support.  Its a pointless sink or swim test, and if you sink your head gets cut off.

I do believe, mages should not inherit titles.  Too much power and all that.  But I have a feeling after the more humbling training in a circle, a noble born mage might feel relieved that he/she is not expected to be bound to the duties acquired by just being born in a noble family.  They can take on positions of advisors, healers, war-mages in the armies, etc.  They should be able to find work that suits them.

As much as I hate to say it, a way to track mages is needed, but perhaps a different method or a leash.  A magical artifact (ie bracelet, ring, tatoo, etc) that can not be removed and that when blood magic is used triggers.  Perhaps, knocking the mage out and/or summoning local templars and/or other mages to stop him/her.  This artifact could be used instead of the blood based phalacteries to track mages down and could give witness on behalf of the mage if he/she is charged with using blood magic.  If not triggered then no blood magic.  The artifact would need to be attuned to each specific mage, but a decent group of specially trained enchanters should be able to do it.

[Fredward]

Auintus wrote...
My idea: The Circle remains, as a mandatory school, not a prison. Young mages will be brought in and trained. Should they pass their Harrowing, they are allowed to leave the Circle, should they choose to do so. Phalacteries would still be made for the purpose of tracking mages that become maleficar or abominations. Teams of templars and mages would exist as a policing force against these threats. Demonology would be conducted only within the Circle, with extensive precautions in place. I doubt I covered everything, but it's a start.

Basically that but with no templars at all. Mages can hunt mages.

[PsychoBlonde]

xsdob wrote...

@psychoblade, isn't that pretty much telling the mages to become slaves to the dwarfs? I mean, I may not know much, but I can take a gander that a none-dwarf, no matter how useful, is still going to be pretty low on the caste system.

Non-dwarves are outside the caste system.  The dwarves deal with them all the time with very few problems.  And there's no fundamental reason why the dwarves involved have to belong to the standard dwarven society.  Casteless dwarves and surface dwarves still have magic resistance and dwarven cultural attitudes.

Also the mortality rate for the mages will go through the roof, a lot more than the circles could, sicne the deep roads are pretty much a place people are sent to go and die, having them train there is going to result in large casualties than compare to the safe and controlled environment of the towers.

The "safe", "controlled" environment where mages get randomly thrown in cells without food or water for days, raped by templars, made Tranquil at the drop of a hat, have the constant threat of mass execution hanging over them, and get hauled from their beds in the middle of the night to be chucked into the Fade and fight a demon?  Riiiiiiight.  If you're going to need practice anyway, might as well get some benefit from it.

And what's wrong with massive casualties?  Aren't people constantly complaining that there are TOO MANY mages?  Let the restless ones go fight the darkspawn for fun and profit.  Either they'll die, or they'll work off their spleen.  It's a win either way.  The timid sheep who are content to stay in their rooms aren't the problem, anyway.  

[brushyourteeth]

The mage circles need to be more like squares.

Seriously - no trollin'. What I mean is that the mages shouldn't all be treated equally. Mages who are proven to show exceptional restraint and a desire to use their magic "to serve man and never to rule over him" should earn a lot more freedom and respect. What good does being a responsible, decent human/elven being of a mage get you in Thedas currently? Not much. You're still under lock and key 100% of the time under the watchful eyes of suspicious, not just vigilant jailers. While some policing needs to happen (preferably done both by responsible mages as well as non-mages, since they should both have a vested interest in the success of the institution) those mages who prove themselves (as Wynne and Regalyan have, as outliers) should have significantly more freedom.

Take people out of their homes because they're special, and they may eventually be able to see the good of it if you give them back their dignity and let them make their new dwelling into a home. Provide safety, comfort, allow kinship, and give them a purpose. Let them achieve something other than being frightened livestock.

Chantry folk are often raised in that environment as orphans or castaways and offered no other choice for their path in life. But they make themselves useful, and generally don't go starting revolts or blowing up buildings. Why? Because no one's constantly making wild accusations that they will, or belittling them because of their fate, or, as others have said, systematically abusing and accusing them because of what they are.

With the system as it currently is, no wonder mages get angry or bored and turn to blood magic. It's what's expected of them. It's what the system raises them for -- all so that the cycle can be reinforced and repeated again and again. Let them have something else: great punishment for wrong, but great honor for doing right. Let them know that, like anyone, they'll be cut down for breaking the law -- but that, like anyone, they can achieve great honor within their sphere of influence and a place in history for using their gifts for the benefit of others. Most mages would be plenty content with that.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 novembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[TCBC_Freak]

brushyourteeth wrote...

The mage circles need to be more like squares.

Seriously - no trollin'. What I mean is that the mages shouldn't all be treated equally. Mages who are proven to show exceptional restraint and a desire to use their magic "to serve man and never to rule over him" should earn a lot more freedom and respect. What good does being a responsible, decent human/elven being of a mage get you in Thedas currently? Not much. You're still under lock and key 100% of the time under the watchful eyes of suspicious, not just vigilant jailers. While some policing needs to happen (preferably done both by responsible mages as well as non-mages, since they should both have a vested interest in the success of the institution) those mages who prove themselves (as Wynne and Regalyan have, as outliers) to have significantly more freedom.

Take people out of their homes because they're special, and they may eventually be able to see the good of it if you give them back their dignity and let them make their new dwelling into a home. Provide safety, comfort, allow kinship, and give them a purpose. Let them achieve something other than being frightened livestock.

With the system as it currently is, no wonder mages get angry or bored and turn to blood magic. It's what's expected of them. It's what the system raises them for -- all so that the cycle can be reinforced and repeated again and again. Let them have something else: great punishment for wrong, but great honor for doing right. Let them know that, like anyone, they'll be cut down for breaking the law -- but that, like anyone, they can achieve great honor within their sphere of influence and a place in history for using their gifts for the benefit of others. Most mages would be plenty content with that.

Perhaps a triangle is a better visual than square with what you are saying?

[brushyourteeth]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Perhaps a triangle is a better visual than square with what you are saying?

Sure, if you like. It still has corners.  

[Fredward]

brushyourteeth wrote...
With the system as it currently is, no wonder mages get angry or bored and turn to blood magic. It's what's expected of them. It's what the system raises them for -- all so that the cycle can be reinforced and repeated again and again. Let them have something else: great punishment for wrong, but great honor for doing right. Let them know that, like anyone, they'll be cut down for breaking the law -- but that, like anyone, they can achieve great honor within their sphere of influence and a place in history for using their gifts for the benefit of others. Most mages would be plenty content with that.

This exactly. DA2 makes the situation in Kirkwall sound exceptional with the Knight Commander constantly pressuring the mages and them turning to blood magic or turning apostate to fight this. But really this is taking place on a grand scale all over the Circles. The templars are addicted to lyrium, they get lyrium to combat mages, they NEED mages to be dangerous otherwise their existence is no longer justified. So as long as their are lyrium-swilling templars around a greater than average amount of mages are going to turn to blood magic or turn into abominations. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Think about it. The greatest number of mages we've seen become blood mages and abominations have done so to fight the Chantry/Circle/templars remove those restrictions and the rate of magic abuse also drops.

[brushyourteeth]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
With the system as it currently is, no wonder mages get angry or bored and turn to blood magic. It's what's expected of them. It's what the system raises them for -- all so that the cycle can be reinforced and repeated again and again. Let them have something else: great punishment for wrong, but great honor for doing right. Let them know that, like anyone, they'll be cut down for breaking the law -- but that, like anyone, they can achieve great honor within their sphere of influence and a place in history for using their gifts for the benefit of others. Most mages would be plenty content with that.

This exactly. DA2 makes the situation in Kirkwall sound exceptional with the Knight Commander constantly pressuring the mages and them turning to blood magic or turning apostate to fight this. But really this is taking place on a grand scale all over the Circles. The templars are addicted to lyrium, they get lyrium to combat mages, they NEED mages to be dangerous otherwise their existence is no longer justified. So as long as their are lyrium-swilling templars around a greater than average amount of mages are going to turn to blood magic or turn into abominations. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Think about it. The greatest number of mages we've seen become blood mages and abominations have done so to fight the Chantry/Circle/templars remove those restrictions and the rate of magic abuse also drops.

*nods* And the more abominations there are, the more crazy distrustful of mages the Chantry gets. They're hardly regarded as the Maker's children anymore -- just some curse on the face of Thedas. Magic "meant to serve man"? Pah! We know what magic does. Ohh yes.

Case in point: Orsino. Huge disappointment. Would arguably have been a loyal Circle leader to the end, but he knew the system too well to let himself become the scapegoat one day. I don't approve of his actions, but I understand completely why he decided to learn himself a freaky blood magic ritual "just in case." And the day came that he felt justified in becoming the monster his jailers thought he was. Because why not, right? If you're going to go, go down fighting. But of course even if you take down hundreds of templars in the process, every mage loses when you reinforce their nasty assumptions about you. It's maddening.

It's Dragon Age. I sympathize with everyone and I'm also mad at everyone. Urgh.