271 réponses à ce sujet

[Rixatrix]

Wow.  That is quite the fire you've got there.  But okay, I'll try to answer your objections to my thoughts.

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

- All mages have the same rights as everyone else.[/quote]

To live on the street in povertry, starve and suffer plague? To be abused, raped and murdered by nobility and guardsman which are not accountable to anyone but themselves? To live in a family and suffer all the emotional instability which that may cause? To have children with a husband or wife and see them grow old, perhaps grow sick and... die? To yearn for more influence in the world, to seek to rise above their station?

I think everyone else wished the yhad the same rights as mages, tbh.[/quote]

Rights are fundamental normative rules about what people are owed or should be allowed to do.  I can see you have a very emotional response here, but if you really want to engage in a discussion on this, I can only address logical arguments.  Now, if you really believe being "abused, raped, and murdered" are rights, then I can't have a reasonable discussion with you on this topic.

I refer to rights such as natural rights, or the negative right to be left alone.  My point is that regardless of the mage variable, all individuals in a given country should have the same rights, unless their actions exclude them.

[quote]
[quote]No phylacteries and no templar control.[/quote]

So no supervision, nor any accountability for their actions or way to track them down?[/quote]

Phylacteries pre-suppose wrongdoing by all mages.  Perhaps allowing phylacteries for mages who have committed non-capital offenses would be a good idea, similar to fingerprinting.  This comes down to your own ethical views.  Taking phylacteries for all mages is akin to fingerprinting individuals who have committed no crimes because their circumstances make them more susceptible to crime.  My conscience doesn't allow for prejudging individuals.

[quote]
[quote]However, templars still exist, and if mages allegedly commit a crime like murder, they are sent to capture the mage alive so that s/he can stand trial.[/quote]

How would you know it's murder if a mage commited it? They could've mind-controlled someone else to do it, perhaps even have the person kill themselves. Hell, maybe they summoned a mage and did it! Perhaps burned down the entire house and made it look like an accident!

Hell, what would Templar do when they finally surround the mage? They don't have an entire army unlike the Circle, who's to say they won't get overrun by blood magic or demons?[/quote]

How do you generally know if a murder has been committed?  An investigative unit examines a body and an alleged scene of a crime and draws conclusions, which may or may not be proven in court.  Both sides engage in a battle of experts who give their expert opinions.  I'm not entirely informed of the judicial systems in Thedas, but I am in support of mages being bound to them like everyone else.  If the current system is inadequate to support mages' inclusion, then it should be fairly augmented to do so.

[quote]
[quote]but have special prisons guarded by templars that prevent magical means of escape.[/quote]

There isn't any "magical prison". The one that exists is a death sentence for anyone imprisoned within.[/quote]

Obviously, I meant that there should be.  It would be a prison like any other, except that it would be staffed by individuals trained in the resistance and handling of magic.

[quote]
[quote]The Circle of Magi gets control of itself.[/quote]

Like it already does.[/quote]

No.  The Circle is governed by and monitored by the Chantry.  Thus, the Chantry is in control of the Circle.

[quote]
[quote]Its profits, however, must go to continue research, mage education, mage prison funding, and templar training, among other things.[/quote]

So, like it already does. However--how will they garner profits? Most of the Circle's profits are from the Tranquil and I assume you're thinking of abolishing the Rite of Tranquility.[/quote]

Hence "continue."  Potions, in addition to texts and services, would make up profits.  Dwarves, some of whom are capable of enchanting without tranquility, could join the Circle to learn.  Besides, when weighing profits against human rights, profits should never win.  (Even if, in Thedas and in reality, they often do.)  I base this on facts from the Dragon Age universe:

"It is revealed that proximity to a mage bonded with a Fade spirit can temporarily restore a Tranquil to their former self. In contrast to the content and peaceful outlook of the Tranquil, the restored individual described it as a horrific experience in comparison."

Knowing that it is horrific for the person being made Tranquil, how can this rape of a human's emotions be considered acceptable?

[quote]
[quote]Mages can live among everyone else, procreate, marry, hold titles, etc.[/quote]

Yes, this won't cause any problems at all.[/quote]

I never said it wouldn't cause problems.  However, should rights be taken from a minority because they may "cause problems"?  Obviously, this is a question based in ethics, and for my part, I say no, that would be unconscionable.

[quote]
[quote]No magic is forbidden; however, if it hurts someone, mages are bound by law like everyone else and will be punished as the local law provides.[/quote]

Have fun stopping the empowered blood mage / abomination with... local authorities?[/quote]

Mages causing harm to others would be punished under local law, but by templars.  Yet again, it is a philosophical debate whether there are certain actions that don't cause an injury for which the law provides a remedy, but which is considered ethically and legally "wrong."  In my opinion, blood magic, as long as it does not cause injury or deprive others of their rights, should not be punishable until it does.  

[quote]
[quote]Being made tranquil is no longer allowed as a punishment.  This is like a lobotomy, and it is both cruel and unusual.[/quote]

Ah! Here it is! Let's make the Circle not have any income! Brilliant! [/quote]

This presuppposes that the Tranquil are the only organ of the Circle capable of earning an income.  The herbalists, mages preforming services, dwarven enchanters, etc., can earn income for the Circle.  If you just want to come and troll, then being rude accomplishes your goal.  However, if you truly want to have a discussion, using logical reasoning politely will accomplish the task.

[quote]
Let's forget that the alternative is execution / death and that many submit to Tranquility of their own free will--allowed to leave the Circle to do as they please in the outside world once done.[/quote]

When you say "free will," that does not contradict my assertion that it should not be used a punishment.  (You can't punish the willing, right?)  Tranquility was used to prevent mages from being possessed by demons, but this was proven wrong.  Gutting a person of their emotional center is cruel and unusual.  Additionally, there have been allegations that mages were being made tranquil without cause, for the financial benefit of the Chantry and for abuse by templars -- allegations which have not been given fair consideration.

[quote]
[quote]Something that has always bothered me about the in-game world is that "being a mage" means you have fewer rights than others.[/quote]

Because commoners, elves and dwarves have soooo many rights! [/quote]

That is beyond the scope of the OP.  We can discuss this elsewhere, if you prefer, as it is off-topic.  And once again, being rude does not enhance your argument, but detracts from an otherwise civil discussion.

[quote]
[quote]"Being" anything you have no control over should not mean it is okay to take your rights away.[/quote]

Being a threat is, a man who's dangerous won't be allowed to live in public--intent or no.[/quote]

What makes him dangerous?  Actions make him dangerous.  If a person has committed a crime, then yes, he may need to be imprisoned.  However, a person being who s/he is from birth should never be a "crime."  There is a difference between punishing actions and qualities.  

[quote]
[quote]That leads to discrimination.  Your actions, however, are fair game.
[/quote]

And here we have modern code of ethics coming into play, thank heavens those exist in Thedas wait no they don't.

[/quote][/quote]

Unfortunately, misdirection is not a proper argument against my statement.  Yes, Thedas is a fantasy world, but that does not mean we cannot apply concepts from reality in analysis of its events.  Moreover, need I remind you that the world of Thedas is a creation by people from our world, who may hold to a modern code of ethics?

In addition, my ethical beliefs' modernity has nothing to do with their substance.  Simply because a concept is newer does not negate its validity.  Perhaps you would care to explain why you believe punishing individuals for their natural qualities is ethically sound?

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:21 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Auintus wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

I may be misremembering, but your "alternative Circle" sounds like what the Circle was originally supposed to be when it was established yes? It has become what it is today after centuries of vitriol from the two main factions involved (the Circle and the Templar) after the Tevinter Circle basically fell apart and magistrates rose to power again. Then the other Circles at the behest of the Templar made it a life time commitment in the "schools for magic" as it were.

Am I remembering this right? Or did I just imagine it happened like that?

I don't know, where did you hear that?

I can't remember, which is why I thought it might be my brain being stupid.

brushyourteeth wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

The greatest
number we've seen maybe, but not that we have heard about. Before the
fall of old Tevinter it was run by blood mages, but there were no
Templar. In modern Tevinter the Templar are like lapdogs to the mages,
they have no power and are just for show, yet it is run by blood mages.

You
can't blame the Templar for "creating evil bloodmages by being mean"
any more than you can blame the mages for "creating evil Templar by
turning to bloodmagic."

Templar who are evil are that way for the
same reason mages who become bloodmages are, they find a reason to
justify them but it's what they want, to be cruel and have power. Good
people stay good, bad people will go bad at the first chance they get.
Look and anything you want and you see it. In the games we see it and in
the books, in other places too, like in Star Wars when talking about
the Jedi and Sith or Harry Potter and the magic in that world.

Templars
AND mages are to blame because they reinforce the culture. What's
needed is for good mages and (if possible) good templars to take control
of the situation and see to it that good is reinforced through
encouragement and abuse by either faction is discouraged through swift
punishment. For mages, their positive behavior will for once be
acknowledged the way it ought. For the templars... well, that's easy.
Even the most vile and disgusting templar will behave if you threaten to
take his source of lyrium away.

This is kind of what I'm hoping we as the player can do in DA3, we can use the Inquisition to find the good mages and Templar and unit them against the bad guys.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:20 .

[brushyourteeth]

In DG's "Asunder" novel, Rhys reflects that the Orlesian enchanters were allowed into Val Royeaux to shop and see the sights before Anders basically set the magical world on fire.

So even though mages everywhere have long been subject to suspicion and some level of maltreatment, it hasn't always been completely unreasonable in every Circle across Thedas. Mages from the White Spire were allowed "field trips" and interaction with normal people until the Kirkwall Chantry explosion.

[brushyourteeth]

Auintus wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Well put! How to best implement that is a tricky question, but I completely agree with what you're saying. 

Thanks, and yes, it's definitely a dilemma that I don't really have a good answer for.

I think a good start (and granted, it's only a start) would be the Chantry seeing to it that every decently populated town has a responsible and approved skilled healer available for general aid living and serving within that city's Chantry among the priests and (yes) templars.

When little Billy's injuries are severe enough, and if the Chantry's endorsement is strong enough, Farmer Bob will eventually subject his family to the help of magic. And trust can be formed in that community over time.

Auintus approves +10, though I think mages could be more than just healers. Jowan, sorry, Leyvn, served as bodyguard for a group of mundanes in a bugged quest.
You are quite right, though. Seperating them is only asking for trouble. However, if you remember, there is an apprentice in the Circle who nearly torches himself because he has yet to control his powers completely. Perhaps when apprentices reach a certain point in their training, they can have..."field trips" of sorts to build their compassion towards non-mages.

I think... it would be quite some time before normal people could handle seeing a mage use his/her powers combatively without having a complete freakout. In fact, were I a Chantry official in charge of the Circle, I'd put some sort of emphasis in the healing school of magic into effect. Because healers are useful and much less scary than people who can shoot fire out of their fingers. And in a combat situation, we all know that mages are every bit as useful as healers as dps machines (which is something non-mages can cover, even if not quite as effectively, especially if they can stay alive a lot longer to fight with whole squads of healers to help them do it).

there's a simple psychology to it: healing = good
watching you freeze a guy until he shatters in a bloody mess (even if he's "the bad guy") = wet-pants scary

Thedas might just need to see the softer side of magic.  
(I'm not, of course, talking about what they should do if they want to overthrow the Chantry. I'm talking simply about what's possibly the best way to win the hearts and trust of the people.)

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 01 décembre 2012 - 01:34 .

[MisterJB]

BlueMoonSeraphim: All of your arguments are based on flawed concept.
You want equality between mages and mundanes. However, the principles of equality is based on the idea that all are, aproximatelly, equal. In our world, this makes sense. Some are smarter, some are stronger but all humans, regardless of race or gender, have the same basic capabilities and weaknesses. Thus, the idea that we are all equal is applicable in our world.
However, just like I can objectivally prove water is different from acid, so I can objectivally prove that mages and mundanes are not equal. Mages have acess to a wide range of abilities that no mundane can match.
And just like the restrictions set to keep control of handguns differ from those set to keep track and contain nuclear bombs, so must the freedoms of mages be more restricted that those of mundanes to compensate for their increased potential for destruction.

Mages are people like others, that is true. And therein is the problem. Because people are weak; people are greedy; people are selfish. I know very well that there have been moments in my life whereas were I a mage, I would have caused catastroph. And the number of times I would have used these powers to give myself an unfair advantage over others are innumerable.

And, ultimately, that is why I don't believe equality between mages and mundanes is possible. At best, you would have a mage dominated world where they are the elites and mundanes second class citizens. At worst, Tevinter.

[Foolsfolly]

Auintus wrote...

In recent discussions, it has come up that, with the Circle no longer aligned with the Chantry as of the end of Asunder, a new system of containing/training mages will have to arise. Elsewise, untrained mages would fall to demons left and right and the world would be torn apart. That's what the original Inquisition rose to eliminate.

So, my question is: How should mages be treated in the new system? Harsher? Kinder? Stricter?

My idea: The Circle remains, as a mandatory school, not a prison. Young mages will be brought in and trained. Should they pass their Harrowing, they are allowed to leave the Circle, should they choose to do so. Phalacteries would still be made for the purpose of tracking mages that become maleficar or abominations. Teams of templars and mages would exist as a policing force against these threats. Demonology would be conducted only within the Circle, with extensive precautions in place. I doubt I covered everything, but it's a start.

note: Please do not quote the entire OP. It takes up more space than necessary.

Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. Gotcha.

[Josielyn]

I like the OP idea, exactly what I have been thinking. However, I do agree that mages should not be forced to fight a demon in school either.

[SirGladiator]

You've definitely got to have a system for training younger mages, there's no question about that. There's no reason for them to be completely separated from their families of course, I see no reason why they can't be allowed frequent visits to the tower. But at the core, there's always going to be a need for a circle, and for the Templars, because we're always going to need teachers to help young mages learn to control their abilities, and folks who are able to track them down and put them down if they turn into abominations. Once a mage becomes an adult, and has passed all the tests that proves that they are in complete control and aren't a threat, then they should have the same freedoms as anybody else, the ability to come and go from the tower, leave the tower altogether, or stay all the time and help others, whatever they want to do. Good common sense solutions sure seem like a good idea to me.

[Rixatrix]

MisterJB wrote...

BlueMoonSeraphim: All of your arguments are based on flawed concept.
You want equality between mages and mundanes. However, the principles of equality is based on the idea that all are, aproximatelly, equal. In our world, this makes sense. Some are smarter, some are stronger but all humans, regardless of race or gender, have the same basic capabilities and weaknesses. Thus, the idea that we are all equal is applicable in our world.

You are missing my point.

The concept that only actions, not natural qualities, should be punished is universal.  I don't care if the human being has magic, laser eyes, firecracker hands, or anything else - unless that individual has committed an offense for which the law demands a punishment, I refuse to consider taking away their rights as human beings.  That is what we are dealing with when talking about mages.  Human beings.

When any governing body starts expecting a group of individuals to be criminals and restricting their rights as a consequence, it should come as no surprise that that group rebels against such tyranny.  My opinion on that stands whether we are dealing with police in poor neighborhoods or templars in the Circle of Magi.

(On a sidenote, in reply to your point, I do not believe that everyone in our world is approximately equal.  Just as people in Thedas are born with an advantage like magic, people in our world are born to other advantages, such as massive wealth, social standing, race, national origin, and even gender.  In fact, I would consider being born into a multi-billion dollar family a much greater advantage than having magic a la Dragon Age.  Additionally, the law has not succeeded in achieving equality in our world, either.)

[Patchwork]

Young mages need to be trained and the quickest way to change the system that is to make the Circles exclusively schools. A staff of teachers, guards and non-magical activities like wallop teams. The school would be mandatory and Harrowing something done annually, perhaps every five years after graduation. It's naive to think that because someone can resist when they're a bright eyed apprentice they still can after life has kicked them around a bit.

After graduation the mage like everyone else has to make their way in the world. Unlike most of Thedas mages have a first class education and would make great scribes and clerks, apprentice themselves to apothecaries, healers even become guards. Right now there's a strong them verses us mentality and that will take time to change.

Mages are dangerous but cutting them off from everything creates more problems than it solves. Say what you like about the Tevinter and Dalish mage dominated societies but they're not over run by abominations.

[Lotion Soronarr]

So much fantasy, so much impossible dreams.

And it's so sad that people fail to grasp the purpose of the Harrowing and why telling the mages what the test is about would completley undermine the test, thus rendering it pointless.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

BlueMoonSeraphim: All of your arguments are based on flawed concept.
You want equality between mages and mundanes. However, the principles of equality is based on the idea that all are, aproximatelly, equal. In our world, this makes sense. Some are smarter, some are stronger but all humans, regardless of race or gender, have the same basic capabilities and weaknesses. Thus, the idea that we are all equal is applicable in our world.

You are missing my point.

The concept that only actions, not natural qualities, should be punished is universal.  I don't care if the human being has magic, laser eyes, firecracker hands, or anything else - unless that individual has committed an offense for which the law demands a punishment, I refuse to consider taking away their rights as human beings.  That is what we are dealing with when talking about mages.  Human beings.

You dont' care. Others do. Because others are clearly smarter.

You talk in absolutes, yet absolutes are garbage.
You apply a principle that works in our world, in a world where it wouldn't work the same.

When any governing body starts expecting a group of individuals to be criminals and restricting their rights as a consequence, it should come as no surprise that that group rebels against such tyranny.

It's not tyrany is REASONABLE SEGREGATION.
No one excpets mages to be criminals, becuase you don't have to be a criminal to frak up massively. A mage doesn't have to do anything criminal and he can still end up destroying a whole village.

[DKJaigen]

The circle system right now is decent. Buts the templar order that is the corruption which needs to be removed

[MisterJB]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...
You are missing my point.

The concept that only actions, not natural qualities, should be punished is universal.  I don't care if the human being has magic, laser eyes, firecracker hands, or anything else - unless that individual has committed an offense for which the law demands a punishment, I refuse to consider taking away their rights as human beings.  That is what we are dealing with when talking about mages.  Human beings.

When any governing body starts expecting a group of individuals to be criminals and restricting their rights as a consequence, it should come as no surprise that that group rebels against such tyranny.  My opinion on that stands whether we are dealing with police in poor neighborhoods or templars in the Circle of Magi.

My rights are restricted. I can't buy a firearm in my country or drive on the opposite side of the road whenever I please. The rulers who forbid me from doing this did not take into account my morality not did they expect me to be a criminal. They considered the possibility of me being a criminal or simply the possibility of me not knowing how to drive and restricted my freedoms in order to ensure that I am less of a threat to others. Then they estricted the freedoms of all other civillians in the same way because they too are capable of pulling a trigger or crashing into someone.

The same logic applies to the DA world. We do not expect mages to be criminals. We consider the possibility that they might be and restrict their freedoms in order to ensure they're less of a threat to others. Their freedoms are more restricted simply because they have the advantage of magic that other people don't.

(On a sidenote, in reply to your point, I do not believe that everyone in our world is approximately equal.  Just as people in Thedas are born with an advantage like magic, people in our world are born to other advantages, such as massive wealth, social standing, race, national origin, and even gender.  In fact, I would consider being born into a multi-billion dollar family a much greater advantage than having magic a la Dragon Age.  Additionally, the law has not succeeded in achieving equality in our world, either.)

True, in practice, there's little real equality in our world. But, even if the practice fails, the theory makes sense in our world. The difference between people of our world are, mostly, superficial.
Neither the theory nor the practice apply in Thedas.
I am of the opinion things that are equal must be treated equally. Things that are not, such as mages and mundanes, it would be irresponsible to pretend they are equal and expose mundanes to the threat of magic.

[MisterJB]

Ser Bard wrote...
Say what you like about the Tevinter and Dalish mage dominated societies but they're not over run by abominations.

No, they're just mage supremacist.
I oppose this as well.

[Drakar123]

I don't.Mages are better then mundanes and there is no denying it.This isn't like racial discrimination where you can't be sure weather someone is right or not.Mages are superior and as such should rule over mundanes and have more rights.It's the same way we treat cattle in our world.Yes they can feel pain and everything else a regular human can but they are ultimately lesser beings then humans and as such have no rights and are slaughtered by us for food.Humans treat all animals this way and there is nothing wrong with that.We would experience the same thing if another superior species came along.Mages are superior to mundanes and there is no reason to protect them from mages because ultimately although they are human beings the difference between a mage and a mundanes is the same as the difference between a human and a cow.One is obviously superior and as such should complete power over the one who is inferior

[Dave of Canada]

[quote]BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Rights are fundamental normative rules about what people are owed or should be allowed to do. *snip*[/quote]

Which change as time goes on, no society suddenly has "rights"--they need to be developed through generations of societal change. The lower-middle class never had rights until they were created, something which Thedas hasn't achieved for anyone as of yet.

Those of gentlebirth, those in a position of authority (guardsmen) and criminals run rampant across Thedas abusing the commoners, Chevaliers rape women and Guardsmen are allowed to slaughter /rape peasants without anyone batting an eyelash.

Whether you want to believe it or not, no-one has rights. The only rights outside of Circles is the right to be abused like everyone else as the concept of "rights" hasn't been developed yet. This isn't an emotional response, it's straight fact.

Mages cannot bear emotional turmoil and Thedas is full of it, at least the Templar answer to a higher authority and mages never suffer the commoner's fate while being given an education, being provided with food, having warm beds and healing magic at their disposal.


[quote]Phylacteries pre-suppose wrongdoing by all mages.[/quote]

It's also completely harmless and helps tracking down those who've done wrong. The entire assumption that mages need to do wrong to be chased is silly, they'd get away by then--you can't "fingerprint" a dangerous apostate / blood mage.

Hell, what if someone gets possessed by a demon? Do you want no way for them to be tracked down? Mages are capable of wrongdoing whether they want to or not. That's the entire point of Circles.

[quote]An investigative unit examines a body and an alleged scene of a crime and draws conclusions, which may or may not be proven in court.  Both sides engage in a battle of experts who give their expert opinions.[/quote]

Would work if there was possibly a way to identify if the mage was responsible, though there's not. A man is murdered in cold blood and his wife was blamed, she claims blood magic--how do you prove her innocence? You don't, nobility and guardsmen don't care and they'd simply imprison/execute the woman. Perhaps abuse her while she's in prison too because why the hell not.

Hell, they wouldn't even be able to prove her innocence even if they bothered to.

[quote]If the current system is inadequate to support mages' inclusion, then it should be fairly augmented to do so.[/quote]

It's inadequate to support anyone, Thedas society hasn't developed to that point at all. 

[quote]Obviously, I meant that there should be.  It would be a prison like any other, except that it would be staffed by individuals trained in the resistance and handling of magic.[/quote]

So, a prison filled with dangerous blood mages and Templar? That'd go over well.

[quote]No.  The Circle is governed by and monitored by the Chantry.  Thus, the Chantry is in control of the Circle.[/quote]

The Circle was created by the mages alongside the Chantry, they were and always had the right to leave the Chantry and held two public gatherings to discuss whether or not they wanted to leave. Votes in the original meeting fell in favor with the Chantry and the second one fell in favor of war by one vote.

They're monitored but by no means governed.

[quote]Potions, in addition to texts and services, would make up profits.[/quote]

They already do those. Mages keep their gold for themselves, would you rather that gets taken away from them?

[quote]Dwarves, some of whom are capable of enchanting without tranquility, could join the Circle to learn.[/quote]

They already do that in Orzammar, they make a profit there. Surface Dwarves aren't as good as their earthen bretheren, however. In addition, why would they work with the Circle? They can just sell their wares themselves.

[quote]Besides, when weighing profits against human rights, profits should never win.[/quote]

Unless human rights don't exist yet and profits mean maintaining the Circles.

[quote]Knowing that it is horrific for the person being made Tranquil, how can this rape of a human's emotions be considered acceptable?[/quote]

We've only seen two people be cured of tranquility and both were done against their will, we've yet to see the thoughts of those who desired to be tranquil and even then--you'd claim executing someone on a claim which most tranquil don't even experience is more humane? They only realize the horror when cured.

[quote]I never said it wouldn't cause problems.  However, should rights be taken from a minority because they may "cause problems"?[/quote]

Yes, most nations do so in real life too--I can't purchase a handgun because they'd rather be safe than sorry.

The difference being in Thedas, "human rights" don't exist and a commoner can never be on par with a mage. The fact that they didn't slaughter every mage yet is a surprise.

[quote]In my opinion, blood magic, as long as it does not cause injury or deprive others of their rights, should not be punishable until it does.[/quote]

The sheer fact that blood magic requires blood to power it should indicate that there's no way to use it without injury.

... and it's practically impossible to track down who's abusing blood magic or not until demons come out of the woodworks. Wouldn't it be nice to not know when someone is themselves and someone is mind controlled by a blood mage?

[quote]This presuppposes that the Tranquil are the only organ of the Circle capable of earning an income.[/quote]

They're complete income straight into the Circle's coffers, they require little maintenance and don't have much desire to purchase goods which they don't require to survive.

[quote]The herbalists, mages preforming services, dwarven enchanters, etc., can earn income for the Circle.[/quote]

The current system has all of this (except the dwarves but I don't understand why you cling to that point, they'd most likely rather work on their own), mages just keep their profits as Tranquil sustain them. Cutting Tranquil would harm the mage's income and surely would never be enough to compensate for the complete lack of Tranquil.

[quote]Tranquility was used to prevent mages from being possessed by demons, but this was proven wrong.[/quote]

It was proven wrong when they found out demons could possess Tranquil but they'd never consider doing so unless forced to absolutely do so. They can possess normal people, chairs, lamps, skeletons and whatever but they don't because they desire powerful people.

Hell, Asunder goes on to say Tranquil are more useless to demons than inanimate objects. Tranquility does work as it takes a desirable target and makes them useless to demons.

[quote]Additionally, there have been allegations that mages were being made tranquil without cause, for the financial benefit of the Chantry and for abuse by templars -- allegations which have not been given fair consideration.[/quote]

Only in Kirkwall which was being done by a rogue Templar who went behind the orders of both Elthina and Meredith and was slain by Hawke and co.

[quote]What makes him dangerous?  Actions make him dangerous.  If a person has committed a crime, then yes, he may need to be imprisoned.  However, a person being who s/he is from birth should never be a "crime."  There is a difference between punishing actions and qualities.[/quote]

A plague victim has no rights, they're locked away in plague houses or into plague quarters and left to fend for themselves--infected or not. Same thing with any prison camps for a group of people which the ruling body fears might cause harm--they'd rather imprison anyone dangerous than leave the innocent to frolic.

The fact was, we as a society had deemed the risk was too high over any concept of "innocence".

Although a flawed comparison, mages are similar. They're all afflicted by magic and whether they want to or not, they may become dangerous to everyone around them (by virtue of possession) and when mages go bad, it only gets worse all around (Kirkwall, Ferelden Circle, Redcliffe, Denerim mage cult, etc).


[quote]Yes, Thedas is a fantasy world, but that does not mean we cannot apply concepts from reality in analysis of
its events.[/quote]

You can all you want but far too many people apply modern ethics and code to try as reasoning to rebuilding the Circle and intend to do so by using modern ideas. An impossible and silly task as no-one on Thedas thinks like our society does.

[quote]Moreover, need I remind you that the world of Thedas is a creation by people from our world, who may hold to a modern code of ethics?[/quote]

But their creations do not, that's the point. A writer must abandon their ethics and beliefs if they desire to create a dilemma as they must understand the alternate point of view. 

[quote]Perhaps you would care to explain why you believe punishing individuals for their natural qualities is ethically sound?
[/quote]

The needs of the many over the needs of the few.

[Dave of Canada]

MisterJB wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...
Say what you like about the Tevinter and Dalish mage dominated societies but they're not over run by abominations.

No, they're just mage supremacist.
I oppose this as well.

They've also got abomination problems.

Tevinter takes away the young, ships them to the Circle and locks them in with the Templar under they learn how to use their abilities. The weak die out, the strong thrive and the competent are left to fend for themselves against others less-morally conflicted blood mages. Templar are simply on the payroll of the mages and don't interfere in public duels and don't mind when citizens of Tevinter are sacrificed / killed in combat.

The Dalish have limits on how many mages can be within one clan, they have precautions incase an abomination is made (in which the Dalish hunt down the abomination) and any clan which fails to defend themselves from an abomination / mage is simply wiped off the map and forgotten. Their structure only succeeds because they're small in number and are nomads, it would never work on a larger scale.

One is the one everyone opposes and the other is impossible.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Mages cannot bear emotional turmoil and Thedas is full of it, at least the Templar answer to a higher authority and mages never suffer the commoner's fate while being given an education, being provided with food, having warm beds and healing magic at their disposal.

They frequently suffer the commoners' fate you mentioned of rape/abuse/occasionally just getting killed (see Cole).

Would work if there was possibly a way to identify if the mage was responsible, though there's not. A man is murdered in cold blood and his wife was blamed, she claims blood magic--how do you prove her innocence? You don't, nobility and guardsmen don't care and they'd simply imprison/execute the woman. Perhaps abuse her while she's in prison too because why the hell not.

It'd be interesting to see if this was actually true; if it's not, there might be detectable magic traces left on her.

It's inadequate to support anyone, Thedas society hasn't developed to that point at all.

There's no reason not to work toward it.

The Circle was created by the mages alongside the Chantry, they were and always had the right to leave the Chantry and held two public gatherings to discuss whether or not they wanted to leave. Votes in the original meeting fell in favor with the Chantry and the second one fell in favor of war by one vote.

Ah, so they have the "right" for war to be levied against them for doing so, then? In any case, the Chantry outright refused when the Fereldan Circle tried to seek independence.

We've only seen two people be cured of tranquility and both were done against their will, we've yet to see the thoughts of those who desired to be tranquil and even then--you'd claim executing someone on a claim which most tranquil don't even experience is more humane? They only realize the horror when cured.

I personally believe in informed decisions. Everyone who's made Tranquil should then be cured thereafter, so that they can assess both states while being mentally unaltered.

A plague victim has no rights, they're locked away in plague houses or into plague quarters and left to fend for themselves--infected or not. Same thing with any prison camps for a group of people which the ruling body fears might cause harm--they'd rather imprison anyone dangerous than leave the innocent to frolic.

The latter are very frequently evil themselves. And the former is a relative nonissue with healing magic.

[brushyourteeth]

This thread is quickly derailing from "The Circle is imperfect. What would be a better idea?" back into the much argued-over, sightly off-topic and frankly, less interesting argument between a very few forumites about whether mages or templars are more wrong.

I think... for the purpose of this discussion, it's more helpful to accept the notion that the templar order has been wrong, and how can fixing it essentially fix mages?

Just my two cents. I'd hate to see this genuinely intelligent discussion slowly get dragged back into the same old arguments. :/

[Dave of Canada]

The only thing I'd change in the Circles is building a village surrounding each tower, perhaps quarters which would allow the Templar and their families to reside there. In addition, mage families are given the option to come along but doing so gives all their property to the Chantry and they'll work in the village sewing clothing / preparing food / ect for the mages.

To prevent abuse from the system, the families of the mage must own atleast one property which the Circle can relinquish. This is supposed to be a sacrifice for the betterment of the child and prevents families from trying to play the system by desperately desiring a mage child for better living conditions or coming along despite loathing their mage child.

Visits would be allowed under Templar supervision in open areas like the Gallows courtyard at appointed times (which the family schedules).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 décembre 2012 - 03:42 .

[Xilizhra]

The only thing I'd change in the Circles is building a village surrounding each tower, perhaps quarters which would allow the Templar and their families to reside there. In addition, mage families are given the option to come along but doing so gives all their property to the Chantry and they'll work in the village sewing clothing / preparing food / ect for the mages.

I would do this too, but minus the Chantry. They could share profit with the Circles (meaning another source of income that could compensate for the winding down of Tranquil). I'd also allow the villages to perhaps expand a tad more.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 décembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The only thing I'd change in the Circles is building a village surrounding each tower, perhaps quarters which would allow the Templar and their families to reside there. In addition, mage families are given the option to come along but doing so gives all their property to the Chantry and they'll work in the village sewing clothing / preparing food / ect for the mages.

To prevent abuse from the system, the families of the mage must own atleast one property which the Circle can relinquish. This is supposed to be a sacrifice for the betterment of the child and prevents families from trying to play the system by desperately desiring a mage child for better living conditions or coming along despite loathing their mage child.

Visits would be allowed under Templar supervision in open areas like the Gallows courtyard at appointed times (which the family schedules).

That's... not a bad idea. I say we run with it.

[Sir JK]

The biggest issue methinks is the disparity between a mage and a mundane. The only way to make any functioning system is to address the concerns that come with that. The planasene cultures (Orlais, Nevarra, Free Marches, Ferelden and possibly Antiva) are warrior societies that revolves around the premise that if you're opressed you take to arms to defend your "rights". If you fear a warrior you either ask him to disarm himself or you become an equally skilled warrior to yourself and take what you desire. But a mage cannot be disarmed nor can you learn magic to reach parity with them. For all intents and purposes this means that, all other things being equal, mages always have an advantage over mundanes.

This is a far more pressing concern than any fear of abominations or blood mages. Those are concerns as well, but far more manageable than the inherent advantage that mages have. Any working alternative needs to have an inbuilt method of addressing this, it needs to provide at the very least the illusion that the mages are brought down to the same level (or below) as any mundane.

Anything short of that is just in the long run going to lead to the planasene cultures arming themselves to fight for their own rights. To take what they feel they deserve at the very edge of a sword.

So the real question is how to create a system where mundanes do not feel intimidated by mages without mages feeling restricted or opressed. The current system seemed to succeed at the former but fail at the latter.

A crucial snag in all of this is that allowing mages to police mages means in effect to surrender yourself to a mage patron. Which is the very premise that Tevinter society revolves around.