271 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Gameplay =/= Story.

A mage can mind-control without making an obvious ritual. Connor did it, Idunna did it, etc.

However, getting mauled by a dragon and then drinking a poultice (which isn't something you drink, btw) is gameplay mechanics. Stabbing your staff through your chest is gameplay mechanics. Being able to fight hundreds of abominations as they float up through the ground is gameplay mechanics.

[Vandicus]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
So, just to make sure your position is clear, you're saying that all those mages in DA2 violated the laws of magic by teleporting?

My opinion is as stated, nothing more, that animations for skills in Dragon Age actually show in the universe.

It seems, though, that you are convinced to ski down the slippery slope fallacy, so by all means, have fun.

Why just animations and not the spells themselves? Now you're selectively choosing which gameplay mechanics represent how magic works, and in a counterintuitive fashion I might add. It would be more reasonable to argue that since teleportation is an actual action we see being performed, teleportation is being done story-wise, though by Word of God we know this isn't true.

[Rixatrix]

Vandicus wrote...
Your stance, gameplay mechanics represents how magic really works.

Nice strawman you got there.  Burn it for me?  

In case you forgot, here's what my stance actually is:

Each spell, including those "controlling" others, have very visible casting effects.

That skills have visible effects, like casting Fireball shoots a fireball, casting Tempest rains lightning down on an area, etc.  You're the one lumping all gameplay in, but keep the fallacies going... maybe a combo chain has a bonus score?

Anyway, unless explicitly told otherwise by the writers, I imagine that skills in Dragon Age are as depicted in the games.

Sure, that might not suit your purposes, but Dragon Age wouldn't be the first fantasy universe to have visible spell effects.  Graphical representations of skills are distinguishable from all the other extraneous stuff you mentioned.  These skills are part of the lore, part of the classes, and used - is it so farfetched that they play out as shown?

If it is, then once again, I'd like to known how all the skills in Dragon Age actually look - I'm all ears (or "eyes," as it were).

BTW, Regroup: "Anders can revive fallen friends even in the heat of battle, restoring a portion of their health and stamina or mana."

---
EDIT:  This is probably getting very off-topic to derailment level.  I merely wanted to present the stance that magic may not be invisible as some assert in their arguments.  Willing to continue via PM or new thread.  Sorry, Aiuntus.

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 02 décembre 2012 - 10:18 .

[MisterJB]

Since we're on the topic of talents, three years and I still haven't figured out what Holy Smite is supposed to be.

[Rixatrix]

MisterJB wrote...

Since we're on the topic of talents, three years and I still haven't figured out what Holy Smite is supposed to be.

It's a game-crashing spell (DAO).  At least it was for me.  

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 02 décembre 2012 - 09:10 .

[Vandicus]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...


Anyway, unless explicitly told otherwise by the writers, I imagine that skills in Dragon Age are as depicted in the games.

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

So then, the game's depiction of the world is wrong, and instead opinions are the facts?

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...
 I went by the literal interpretation - what you see is what you get with magic - while some have chosen to see the animations figuratively. 

Fond of moving the goalposts are we? Your original position is based on a premise of gameplay accurately reflecting the lore. You have since reduced your position to saying "Only in the case of combat animations, and when not contradicted by the writers." That's an awfully convenient definition of when and how gameplay reflects the truth of the story.

[Rixatrix]

Vandicus wrote...

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...


Anyway, unless explicitly told otherwise by the writers, I imagine that skills in Dragon Age are as depicted in the games.

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

So then, the game's depiction of the world is wrong, and instead opinions are the facts?

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...
 I went by the literal interpretation - what you see is what you get with magic - while some have chosen to see the animations figuratively. 

Fond of moving the goalposts are we? Your original position is based on a premise of gameplay accurately reflecting the lore. You have since reduced your position to saying "Only in the case of combat animations, and when not contradicted by the writers." That's an awfully convenient definition of when and how gameplay reflects the truth of the story.

You conveniently didn't quote my first post on the subject.  Fond of selecting what to include in our evidence, are we?

My flair for the dramatic got away from me there on that second post - I'll fix that so you're not confused.  It was the one outlying comment not specifying skills and clearly meant as a sarcastic remark, but hey, are you really worried about addressing the substance of my arguments? 

[CELL55]

 I am reluctant to read 8 pages of posts, so forgive me if I restated anyone else's points.
Any system where one side exists to govern and execute the other side as they deem necessary is open to abuse (as is the case with the Templars and Mages). It is also important to remember that the towers are not just places to train or imprison mages, but also to protect them from the common man, who in the Dragon Age Setting is likely possessed of all kinds of prejudices against mages. The best solution to this problem that I can think of is the relegation of Templars to something more akin to border police, keeping peasants from forming mobs to kill mages out, and keeping any abominations that pop up in.

This still gives the Templars an edge in power over Mages, and that won't do. Tevinter does it the other way around, with Mages having more power than the Templars, and going on to abuse their power. So whoever has power over the other seems to be destined to abuse it, right? The only solution to this problem (besides killing them both and letting the Maker sort them out) is some sort of council where Mages and Templars have a somewhat equal footing with checks and balances for both sides.

It should be pretty obvious that what I am describing is some sort of democracy, or even a republic, and given that I was born and raised in the USA, I'm pretty sure I have several metric tons worth of bias in favor of such systems. And seeing how Thedas is still mostly Feudalistic/Monarchial, and that democracies don't happen overnight (as can be seen in the Middle East now), I'd say my suggestion for a perfect Mage system is about as realistic as the Qunari learning how to smile and dance gaily through the various meadows of Thedas. It just isn't going to happen anytime soon. There is too much that needs to be changed politically, economically, culturally, etc. before any kind of equal footing becomes anything other than a pipe dream.

The best that can be hoped for is that some sort of temporary solution or minor gain be given to the mages so that they won't be as suppressed as before. Worst case is one side gets wiped out and they start the whole system over again.

THE VIOLENCE IS INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM! HELP, HELP, I'M BEING OPRESSED! 

Modifié par CELL55, 02 décembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[Rixatrix]

CELL55 wrote...
The only solution to this problem (besides killing them both and letting the Maker sort them out) is some sort of council where Mages and Templars have a somewhat equal footing with checks and balances for both sides.

1. An interesting thought.  I would like to read more on this.

2. Be warned: your thoughts will be dissected by the pro-templar police, although this thread pre-supposes that the current Circle is ineffective and asks for alternatives.

[Vandicus]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...


You conveniently didn't quote my first post on the subject.  Fond of selecting what to include in our evidence, are we?

My flair for the dramatic got away from me there on that second post - I'll fix that so you're not confused.  It was the one outlying comment not specifying skills and clearly meant as a sarcastic remark, but hey, are you really worried about addressing the substance of my arguments? 

Your first post was not restrictive in nature to the breadth in which you were applying the principle.

Lets try to make my position perfectly clear here

Gameplay and story are segregated, as such what we are shown in the story, be they codexes or cutscenes, trumps anything we see in gameplay.

You have previously taken the position that Idunna doesn't count because she's only one occurence while we see these gameplay animations repeatedly throughout the game.

As a counter I offer that because the writers reject the performance of teleport as a representation of story, we cannot base an argument on the idea that anything represented by gameplay trumps story by virtue of being more commonplace(there is only one codex saying teleportation is impossible, yet many many instances of teleportation, but the writers tell us that the teleportation in DA2 is a gameplay mechanic and not real teleportation, therefore no general principle of greater quantity lends authenticity exists)

[Swagger7]

Personally, I keep all my mages in heptagons.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...
That skills have visible effects.

For player convenience, yes. Nothing mroe.

Or are you saying me icons and floating numbers exist in Thedas as part of the lore?
After all, they are on the screen?

It's redicolous how deep you are digging yourself in with this...

[Lotion Soronarr]

CELL55 wrote...
It should be pretty obvious that what I am describing is some sort of democracy, or even a republic, and given that I was born and raised in the USA, I'm pretty sure I have several metric tons worth of bias in favor of such systems. And seeing how Thedas is still mostly Feudalistic/Monarchial, and that democracies don't happen overnight (as can be seen in the Middle East now), I'd say my suggestion for a perfect Mage system is about as realistic as the Qunari learning how to smile and dance gaily through the various meadows of Thedas. It just isn't going to happen anytime soon. There is too much that needs to be changed politically, economically, culturally, etc. before any kind of equal footing becomes anything other than a pipe dream.

:happy:
Finally someone that understands.
And here I though sanity has abandoned BSN forever....

Note that I don't think mages will EVER be able to go free - democracy or not.
I'm 100% convinced that todays governments would lock them up as well. After all, they do lock people up for far less.

[Rixatrix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Or are you saying me icons and floating numbers exist in Thedas as part of the lore? After all, they are on the screen?

/Sigh.  Slippery slope = fail.

I mean this in the nicest way - If you want to know what I am saying, read what I am saying.  I was talking only of skills and their visual depictions in game.

Vandicus wrote...
Your first post was not restrictive in nature to the breadth in which you were applying the principle.

I.e., "because... reasons."   Because, like, when I mention South America, I am of course discussing the entire universe, since I didn't say I wasn't.... Sorry, can we just skip the part where we argue over what I didn't say I wasn't discussing and just actually talk about mages, magic, the Circle, and possibly, whether skills (spells, specifically) have any visual aspect to them?

Lets try to make my position perfectly clear here

Cool, let's discuss yours.

Gameplay and story are segregated, as such what we are shown in the story, be they codexes or cutscenes, trumps anything we see in gameplay.

Okay, I'll bite - story-wise, what happens when a mage casts a spell?  What are the sights, sounds, smells, if any?

You have previously taken the position that Idunna doesn't count because she's only one occurence while we see these gameplay animations repeatedly throughout the game.
As a counter I offer that because the writers reject the performance of teleport as a representation of story, we cannot base an argument on the idea that anything represented by gameplay trumps story by virtue of being more commonplace(there is only one codex saying teleportation is impossible, yet many many instances of teleportation, but the writers tell us that the teleportation in DA2 is a gameplay mechanic and not real teleportation, therefore no general principle of greater quantity lends authenticity exists)

[emphasis added] 
That's good to know about teleportation.  That is a specific case in which what is written (codex) and what is shown (teleportation) are in contradiction, and the final word was given.  

I am not aware of any contradiction between spells, as shown in-game, and written in codex, nor of any "final word" given.  I would be most delighted to know, one way or the other.  Are there any codexes that say there are no visual effects when casting spells?

A broader question, if you'd like to indulge me - if you were to assume that all spells have visual effects, would that change your opinion on how much/little mages should mix into society or how much freedom they should have?

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 02 décembre 2012 - 09:52 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Or are you saying me icons and floating numbers exist in Thedas as part of the lore? After all, they are on the screen?

/Sigh.  Slippery slope = fail.

I mean this in the nicest way - If you want to know what I am saying, read what I am saying.  I was talking only of skills and their visual depictions in game.

A slippery slope you created.
YOU said spells and skill.
And all classes have visual effects fro their skills, even non-mage classes like fighters. Their swords leave colorfull traces when swung, etc, etc..
You can cherry pick all you want, but you dug your own hole.

As for real visual effects of spells? I'd presume what you'd expect - if you're trying to summon fire in your hand, you'd get fire in your hand. Nothing else. Magic doesn't have a color.
For mind control - what effect would there be at all?

A broader question, if you'd like to indulge me - if you were to assume that all spells have visual effects, would that change your opinion on how much/little mages should mix into society or how much freedom they should have?

Nope. A mage can still kill you or mind control you.
He'd just have to be a little more carefull where he does it.

[Rixatrix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Or are you saying me icons and floating numbers exist in Thedas as part of the lore? After all, they are on the screen?

/Sigh.  Slippery slope = fail.

I mean this in the nicest way - If you want to know what I am saying, read what I am saying.  I was talking only of skills and their visual depictions in game.

A slippery slope you created. YOU said spells and skill. And all classes have visual effects fro their skills, even non-mage classes like fighters. Their swords leave colorfull traces when swung, etc, etc.. You can cherry pick all you want, but you dug your own hole.

Do you know what a "spell animation" is?  Like the lightning raining down from Tempest, or the ice shooting out from Cone of Cold?  That is what I mentioned in my first post, you brought in "icons" and "floating numbers."  Now, put the shovel away, I have no intention of climbing in there. 

As for real visual effects of spells? I'd presume what you'd expect - if you're trying to summon fire in your hand, you'd get fire in your hand. Nothing else. Magic doesn't have a color.
For mind control - what effect would there be at all?

So... a Fireball casts a fireball, like you see in-game.  Was there a spell called "Mind Control"?  If we are talking about Blood Slave, blood magic still requires visible blood (unless we are on Toonami), even if choose to ignore how the spell is actually cast in-game.

A broader question, if you'd like to indulge me - if you were to assume that all spells have visual effects, would that change your opinion on how much/little mages should mix into society or how much freedom they should have?

Nope. A mage can still kill you or mind control you. He'd just have to be a little more carefull where he does it.

Not even a little? 

--
BTW, Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker also showed spell animations, which cannot be argued as "gameplay mechanics." 

Oh, and as for Connor, IIRC we didn't actually see him cast a spell controlling anyone - only after the cast - so we can only speculate as to whether there was an animation or not.  So, we can go with the casts we see, in our party for example, or speculate what may or may not have occurred behind the scenes.

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A slippery slope you created. YOU said spells and skill. And all classes have visual effects fro their skills, even non-mage classes like fighters. Their swords leave colorfull traces when swung, etc, etc.. You can cherry pick all you want, but you dug your own hole.

Do you know what a "spell animation" is?  Like the lightning raining down from Tempest, or the ice shooting out from Cone of Cold?  That is what I mentioned in my first post, you brought in "icons" and "floating numbers."  Now, put the shovel away, I have no intention of climbing in there. 

You already are in there, you just don't see it.

So... a Fireball casts a fireball, like you see in-game.  Was there a spell called "Mind Control"?  If we are talking about Blood Slave, blood magic still requires visible blood (unless we are on Toonami), even if choose to ignore how the spell is actually cast in-game.

We seen no special effects in any instance of mind control use (and we've seen 2 at least)

Again, spells like fire, ice and lighting summon elements.
What does mind control summon? Nothing.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope.
It doesn't amount to same.
You assume mages have some super-secreat way of detecting and tracking mages.

A blood mage can hide easily, a regular mage can't track him easily.
And it's still too big a cost to pay to move to a reactive system.

Uh...phalacteries? Something that is already practiced and proven rather effective?

People do stupid things all the time. didn't we go trough this many times before?
People are NOT perfect logic machines. People do NOT have perfect self-control.

You don't have to be either a child or ignorant or crazy to frak everyone up if you are a mage.

I never demanded perfection. But I highly doubt that a mage can nuke a town on accident.

Up to a point. But at least normals are more easily handled and are less dangerous.

So lack of capability is a reason for trust? I should trust an idiot over an inteligent individual?

No one would be treating them as monsters by their very existance. There would be no preconceptions of mages to give in to.

What?

"Meredith expects blood magic, then I will give it to her. Maker help us all."
Even you treat mages as a threat by their very existence. Is it any wonder that they eventually decide to become that monster? Here

Your belief is naive. Not the good and bad part, but the idea tha good and bad and somehow constant.
There are MOSTLY good and MOSTLY bad people...more or less.
But even good people can do bad things nad even bad people can do good things.

The tempations a mage faces are MUCH greater than that a mundane faces.
Hell, if you had the power to convince me you are right an win this debate, dont' tell me you wouldn't be tempted as hell to use it on me each time I post. And maybe you would resist temptation the first few times. but nothing is eternal or forever. Just like the passage of time, the sand carried by the wind or the rain erodes even the strongest rock, so does willpower erode the more it is tempted.

There isn't even mostly good or mostly bad. Good and bad are words that we use to express personal opinions of something. Even morality is just a set of decision-making principles. No two people see the world in the exact same way. Each individual has their own set of principles. A "good" person doing "bad" things is just you approving of one action and disapproving of another.

 I don't think anyone has that kind of power.
Why would I be tempted to do that? Unless it were over the same topic and you had already conceded the exact same point, but that would just be to show you that you had agreed before. How could I "use" something like that anyway? There wouldn't be a point.

Modifié par Auintus, 02 décembre 2012 - 11:57 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Do you know what a "spell animation" is?  Like the lightning raining down from Tempest, or the ice shooting out from Cone of Cold?  That is what I mentioned in my first post, you brought in "icons" and "floating numbers."  Now, put the shovel away, I have no intention of climbing in there. 

You already are in there, you just don't see it.

Huh, funny. There should be a counter-argument here, but I can't see it.

We seen no special effects in any instance of mind control use (and we've seen 2 at least)

Again, spells like fire, ice and lighting summon elements.
What does mind control summon? Nothing.

Soronnar's got you here, I'm afraid. Huon was glowing like mad, but his wife showed no outward effects of the blood magic.

[Rixatrix]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...
Do you know what a "spell animation" is?  Like the lightning raining down from Tempest, or the ice shooting out from Cone of Cold?  That is what I mentioned in my first post, you brought in "icons" and "floating numbers."  Now, put the shovel away, I have no intention of climbing in there. 

You already are in there, you just don't see it.

Huh, funny. There should be a counter-argument here, but I can't see it.

+1

We seen no special effects in any instance of mind control use (and we've seen 2 at least) Again, spells like fire, ice and lighting summon elements. What does mind control summon? Nothing.

Soronnar's got you here, I'm afraid. Huon was glowing like mad, but his wife showed no outward effects of the blood magic.

IIRC, Huon stabs Nyssa and uses her blood to fuel blood magic, he doesn't control her using Blood Slave.  Huon glowing red would probably be the spell animation, if he is initiating the sustained spell Blood Magic.

Just checking - the instances are Connor/Teagan, Huon/Nyssa, Idunna/Hawke?  We can see our allies or PCs themselves casting Blood Control in DAO or Hawke casting Blood Slave for most of the game.  Connor could have used Blood Control with animation prior to the scene we saw.   Huon doesn't actually use Blood Slave to my knowledge.  Idunna/Hawke is an outlier.  I can speculate about this, just as others can speculate about why there are animations for spells in DAO, DA2, and Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker.  I don't know why it's not consistent.

Also, it would be helpful to note which mind-controlling spell is being referenced in discussion.

Auintus wrote...
"Meredith expects blood magic, then I will give it to her. Maker help us all."
Even you treat mages as a threat by their very existence. Is it any wonder that they eventually decide to become that monster? Here

Reminds me of Utopia.

Also, I agree with you about the natures of human beings.  I don't like others speaking for me, saying that all people are self-serving.  It's silly, but I think of the nine alignments.  It is extremely presumptuous to lump everyone under evil alignments, especially when people differ so much.  I still believe there are people who want to do good in this world selflessly.

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 03 décembre 2012 - 12:46 .

[Vandicus]

 

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Do you know what a "spell animation" is?  Like the lightning raining down from Tempest, or the ice shooting out from Cone of Cold?  That is what I mentioned in my first post, you brought in "icons" and "floating numbers."  Now, put the shovel away, I have no intention of climbing in there. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

You already are in there, you just don't see it.

Huh, funny. There should be a counter-argument here, but I can't see it.

No argument or counter-argument can be made. BlueMoon is operating from a premise that spell animations trump what we see in cutscenes. We can present the generally accepted premise that cutscenes trump combat mechanics of all forms, including spell animations, but its not possible to argue the point any further because conventions are not rooted in all-encompassing rules of logic.

BlueMoon says we should take the 99.9% of the time we see mind control type spells cast with an animation in combat over the 1 cutscene with Idunna where no visible casting is present. Because Lotion and I operate with the premise that cutscenes do trump combat mechanics, including subsections of combat mechanics like spellcasting animations and spell effect visuals, we conclude that the case with Idunna represents the "story" version of how mind control works as per generally accepted story and gameplay segregation rules. BlueMoon operates on a different premise that spellcasting animations trump cutscene use of these spells. There's really no argument that can be made on either side, and outside of a writer coming in and saying that in his universe cutscenes or combat animations trump the other, continuing that aspect of the conversation is pointless.

[TCBC_Freak]

The pro-mage folks want one thing, mage domination. As someone who thought of himself as pro-mage for years since DA:O came out; It kind of pains me to see it become what it is. They will not accept any idea of a new Circle because they want total freedom and no regulation involving mundanes, no matter how lax. It all comes down to, "let mages police themselves, keep humans out of it and if humans end up suffering, too bad because mages have suffered for years so lets not worry that it might lead to that." You could suggest that the Circle be dissolved and reformed as a voluntary school and the Templar work solely to guard the voluntary school and respond to rumors of blood mages and abominations; and the new pro-mage group that has risen up would claim that that wont do because you can't trust the Templar because they are all bigots that would abuse the people who came to the school and the new Circle has the potential to become the same as the one that exists now (because speculating about the future is fine for their side). You know how I know even an idea like this will be rejected? Because I saw it get suggested and ripped apart as "no better" than the current system. I've slowly over the past year and more quickly over the past few weeks seen that I am pro-Templar, because they are willing to work with ideas that end up limiting the Templar power and they are willing to admit that both sides are at fault for what's happened while the pro-mages are content to blame the Templar for all the problems.

[TCBC_Freak]

grimkillah wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Believe what you want, but that isnt' true.
Demons are attracted to mages because they are mages. Personality has nothing to do with it.

And training? You cannot train yourself to resist all temptation.

Connor become possessed by a desire demon because he want to find a way to save his father.
Uldred trying to gain Loghain's support of a free circle, attacked fellow mages with demons, got possessed instead.
Evelina become an abomination after Templars trying to take her away from the children she was helping.
Huon was dragged away from his wife and community in chains by the Templars, when he returned, he uses blood magic, trying to recreate Elven empire.
Quentin become insane after the death of his wife, turned to blood magic, so he can bring her back.
Orsino have gained knowledge of blood mage for years, but only become a harvester when he think the situation at the Gallows was hopeless.
Corypheus become the first darkspawn after entering the golden city thinking they are as powerful as the Maker.
Grace moved from Starkhaven to Kirkwall, and resisted iron rule of Meredith, and become an abomination during the fight.

Care to give some example where mage become abomination just because???

Also while it is true that you can't resist 100% of all the temptation, you are however innocent until you screw up. Otherwise every mage will be a tranquil and every normal person will be in jail, for possible future crime in which he may or may not do.

You just gave an example of a mage that became an abomination just because... Corypheus. He became one just because he wanted power and thought he was more powerful than the maker.

Or maybe you define "just because" wrong. "Just because," means that it happens without the person meaning for it to. Which now that I think about it, is most of the list you gave. You found examples of people who became abominations not because they want to, but "just because" it happens as a result of reaching beyond your grasp.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 03 décembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[Auintus]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

IIRC, Huon stabs Nyssa and uses her blood to fuel blood magic, he doesn't control her using Blood Slave.  Huon glowing red would probably be the spell animation, if he is initiating the sustained spell Blood Magic.

Just checking - the instances are Connor/Teagan, Huon/Nyssa, Idunna/Hawke?  We can see our allies or PCs themselves casting Blood Control in DAO or Hawke casting Blood Slave for most of the game.  Connor could have used Blood Control with animation prior to the scene we saw.   Huon doesn't actually use Blood Slave to my knowledge.  Idunna/Hawke is an outlier.  I can speculate about this, just as others can speculate about why there are animations for spells in DAO, DA2, and Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker.  I don't know why it's not consistent.

Also, it would be helpful to note which mind-controlling spell is being referenced in discussion.

When Huon first meets Nyssa, she's scared, backing away. Then something happens and Nyssa kinda goes blank and walks over to Huon. Then she whimpers.

Reminds me of Utopia.

Also, I agree with you about the natures of human beings.  I don't like others speaking for me, saying that all people are self-serving.  It's silly, but I think of the nine alignments.  It is extremely presumptuous to lump everyone under evil alignments, especially when people differ so much.  I still believe there are people who want to do good in this world selflessly.

I think it's our experiences. They must not have seen much good. I've been around my mother. I'd argue against something from a pragmatic standpoint and she'd shrug it off with "It's the right thing to do." She does a lot of stuff like that and it's really given me a hopeful outlook for humanity as a whole.
If you think of the alignments as a scale and not one of nine, it's actually very accurate.

[Auintus]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

You just gave an example of a mage that became an abomination just because... Corypheus. He became one just because he wanted power and thought he was more powerful than the maker.

Or maybe you define "just because" wrong. "Just because," means that it happens without the person meaning for it to. Which now that I think about it, is most of the list you gave. You found examples of people who became abominations not because they want to, but "just because" it happens as a result of reaching beyond your grasp.

Corypheus is a darkspawn. He was corrupted by the Black City, not demons.

I define "just because" as "for s***s and giggles." Not an accident.