188 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Cerberus is a very good example.

An example to all the game developers & game writers how not to screw up a faction's purpose & aims in a role playing game or in any game for that matter. Couple of years from now Cerberus will be a warning from history.

A warning that games can be ruined by awful & incompetent writing.

That's what Cerberus is.

[Twinzam.V]

Nrieh wrote...

Saren has also been indoctrinated for decades. From the same Reaper artifact, in the same comic as TIM.

Just as I said before. Never happened in game + is not in codex = never happened. Sorry.

Actually it wasnt in the comic. That was Saren's brother. Saren was indoctrinated by the batarian reaper piece in Revelation.
That was his first true contact. In the comic he never gets near enough to be indoctrinated and like Nrieh said the fact of not knowing this tidbit of information doesnt hinder your game.
Since by the time he's inside Sovereign it's already late.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 30 novembre 2012 - 02:13 .

[BleedingUranium]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

Saren has also been indoctrinated for decades. From the same Reaper artifact, in the same comic as TIM.

Just as I said before. Never happened in game + is not in codex = never happened. Sorry.

Actually it wasnt in the comic. That was Saren's brother. Saren was indoctrinated by the batarian reaper piece in Revelation.
That was his first true contact. In the comic he never gets near enough to be indoctrinated and like Nrieh said the fact of not knowing this tidbit of information doesnt hinder your game.
Since by the time he's inside Sovereign it's already late.

Oh right, my mistake, I was confusing the two.

At any rate, not taking stuff like novels, comics, and other outside sources can be your own headcanon, but that's not how lore works. It's all canon, you don't have a say in that.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 30 novembre 2012 - 02:18 .

[Ithurael]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I distinctly remember blowing all of that to hell. With a rather large explosion. Oh, and a black hole. I mean, that was the whole thing about destroying it remember? TIM gave me this big sob story that I was too shortsighted and doomed us all because I destroyed the tech that would make TIM a complete monster. But then suddenly no, the tech is still there, I just get 10 less EMS.

HEY! That Mattered....

[The Night Mammoth]

BleedingUranium wrote...

And he repeatedly tried to get Shepard captured in ME2, he pretty much gave Shepard to the Collectors several times.

By repeatedly, I think you mean arguably once. 

The Reapers need the best from each cycle to make each Reaper. First it was Saren, then Shepard proved he was better. They couldn't make a Prothean Reaper because they failed to capture Javik.

That's just bullsh*t headcanon. 

[Twinzam.V]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

Saren has also been indoctrinated for decades. From the same Reaper artifact, in the same comic as TIM.

Just as I said before. Never happened in game + is not in codex = never happened. Sorry.

Actually it wasnt in the comic. That was Saren's brother. Saren was indoctrinated by the batarian reaper piece in Revelation.
That was his first true contact. In the comic he never gets near enough to be indoctrinated and like Nrieh said the fact of not knowing this tidbit of information doesnt hinder your game.
Since by the time he's inside Sovereign it's already late.

Oh right, my mistake, I was confusing the two.

At any rate, not taking stuff like novels, comics, and other outside sources can be your own headcanon, but that's not how lore works. It's all canon, you don't have a say in that.

Yes but the game doesnt need to be less if its lacking that lore information. 
An example, Star Wars, Do you know how much lore crap is out there just in comics.
Did you knew that it was made a clone of the Emperor and that basically the destruction of the Death Star didnt cripple the Empire since they built not one but two super weapons.
It's this kind of lore that's interesting but not necessarely important to know to watch the movies or play the Star Wars games.

[BleedingUranium]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

And he repeatedly tried to get Shepard captured in ME2, he pretty much gave Shepard to the Collectors several times.

By repeatedly, I think you mean arguably once. 

The Reapers need the best from each cycle to make each Reaper. First it was Saren, then Shepard proved he was better. They couldn't make a Prothean Reaper because they failed to capture Javik.

That's just bullsh*t headcanon. 

If by "bullsh*t headcanon" you mean "connecting the dots", then you're right!

[Reorte]

Didn't you know, stories don't have to make sense, they're just there to give a setting for shooting things. If you actually want an engaging, logical story you're a sad nitpicker, get a life and enjoy simply shooting stuff.

[The Night Mammoth]

BleedingUranium wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

And he repeatedly tried to get Shepard captured in ME2, he pretty much gave Shepard to the Collectors several times.

By repeatedly, I think you mean arguably once. 

The Reapers need the best from each cycle to make each Reaper. First it was Saren, then Shepard proved he was better. They couldn't make a Prothean Reaper because they failed to capture Javik.

That's just bullsh*t headcanon. 

If by "bullsh*t headcanon" you mean "connecting the dots", then you're right!

No, I mean it's bullsh*t headcanon. 

There's essentially nothing to support that idea. 

[BleedingUranium]

Twinzam.V wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

Saren has also been indoctrinated for decades. From the same Reaper artifact, in the same comic as TIM.

Just as I said before. Never happened in game + is not in codex = never happened. Sorry.

Actually it wasnt in the comic. That was Saren's brother. Saren was indoctrinated by the batarian reaper piece in Revelation.
That was his first true contact. In the comic he never gets near enough to be indoctrinated and like Nrieh said the fact of not knowing this tidbit of information doesnt hinder your game.
Since by the time he's inside Sovereign it's already late.

Oh right, my mistake, I was confusing the two.

At any rate, not taking stuff like novels, comics, and other outside sources can be your own headcanon, but that's not how lore works. It's all canon, you don't have a say in that.

Yes but the game doesnt need to be less if its lacking that lore information. 
An example, Star Wars, Do you know how much lore crap is out there just in comics.
Did you knew that it was made a clone of the Emperor and that basically the destruction of the Death Star didnt cripple the Empire since they built not one but two super weapons.
It's this kind of lore that's interesting but not necessarely important to know to watch the movies or play the Star Wars games.

I didn't say you had to know it. I don't know a lot about the Star Wars universe, but I do know that it's non-movie universe is a mess, to say the least. Not all fictional universes go by the same rules.

In Mass Effect, everything is canon, but you don't need to know what's not in-game, it just helps.

Halo is a good example of a very connected universe, you're pretty much expected to know all of it, especially now. You'll have a hard time understanding the main villain of Halo 4 if you haven't read the trilogy of books about his origins. The game doesn't even tell you that the Covenant you're fighting are just a small splinter group, and we actually are still at peace with the rest of them unless you read a seperate trilogy of books. Not to mention there are way more novels and comics compared to ME.

[BleedingUranium]

Reorte wrote...

Didn't you know, stories don't have to make sense, they're just there to give a setting for shooting things. If you actually want an engaging, logical story you're a sad nitpicker, get a life and enjoy simply shooting stuff.

I think Mass Effect might be the wrong game series for you, then. Halo might even be too much for you. Better go play CoD, but only after CoD4, because it actually had a story and was good.

[Skullheart]

Steelcan wrote...

Because someone thought grey morality in ME3 was a bad idea. BioWare wanted human mooks to shoot and the Derperus was born from the ashes of Cerberus.

This.

[Someone With Mass]

Implying that Cerberus was "morally grey" from the start. Which they weren't. They only said they were to justify needlessly cruel experiments.

[BleedingUranium]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Implying that Cerberus was "morally grey" from the start. Which they weren't. They only said they were to justify needlessly cruel experiments.

Thank you. Anyone who thought they were morally grey bought into their propaganda.

Also, nice avatar!

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 30 novembre 2012 - 02:50 .

[NRieh]

At any rate, not taking stuff like novels, comics, and other outside sources can be your own headcanon, but that's not how lore works

That's how lore works for monsters like SWU - it involves all sorts of media and "lores". ME is (or better say - was) videogame trilogy. Any novel or comic can depend on game content, and add something. But game content itself can NOT depend on anything other than two previous games.

[Th3 Bunman]

Nobody would be having this conversation if Bioware didn't let Drew Karpyshyn go.There's a writer who pretty much created the ME universe.He would have everything make sense and this would have been a truly epic conclusion to a fantastic trilogy.

Now i understand why he left since EA got involved.

[gesco420]

Eterna5 wrote...

Cerberus has only one goal in ME3, which is to control the reaper and stop Shepard from Destroying them.

Some of their actions also stem from indoctrination. I'm pretty sure they tried to take control of the Citadel because the Illusive man knows it is Reaper tech. Plus eliminating the councillors will totally divide the galaxy and send it into chaos so that cerberus has no resistance with their control the reapers scheme. 

Their motivations are pretty easy to figure out once you realize they only have two motivations when doing anything:

-Either stopping or slowing Shepard down and preventing him from creating Alliances
-Reteiving tech and other items that further their goal of controlling the reapers. 

Agree but indoctrination also plays a huge role. Saren didn't have full control but he had enough to run his experiments on Virmire, Feros, and Noveria which all had to do with control. The Virmire mission wasn't only to destroy the genophage cure but it also showed how desperate Saren was to understand indoctrination while his own control was sliping away. After that he was given more implants to make him more obedient. TIM had a similar path I think. Cerberus was given Reaper tech by the Reapers I believe because they use agents to help them and TIM was a powerful agent. Everything he did was to help the Reapers whether he knew it or not.

[Twinzam.V]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Implying that Cerberus was "morally grey" from the start. Which they weren't. They only said they were to justify needlessly cruel experiments.

Thank you. Anyone who thought they were morally grey bought into their propaganda.

Also, nice avatar!

Then all people involved in research like Project Manhatan are evil.
All things that cause directly and inderectly pain to others can be considered evil.
Then the fact of someone stealing bread to feed its family can be considered evil since theres no concept  of "grey" in morality only black and white. If to save 100 people you had to kill 1 you can be considered evil if you kill that 1 person.
Cerberus was evil but not woefully evil, more lawful evil.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 30 novembre 2012 - 02:59 .

[BleedingUranium]

Twinzam.V wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Implying that Cerberus was "morally grey" from the start. Which they weren't. They only said they were to justify needlessly cruel experiments.

Thank you. Anyone who thought they were morally grey bought into their propaganda.

Also, nice avatar!

Then all people involved in research like Project Manhatan are evil.
All things that cause directly and inderectly pain to others can be considered evil.
Then the fact of someone stealing bread to feed its family can be considered evil since theres no concept of "grey" in morality only black and white. If to save 100 people you had to kill 1 you can be considered evil if you kill that 1 person.
Cerberus was evil but not woefully evil, more lawful evil.

I agree with you, I think this was a misunderstanding. What I meant was more like: They are, and have always been, antagonists; even in ME2.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 30 novembre 2012 - 03:01 .

[Twinzam.V]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Implying that Cerberus was "morally grey" from the start. Which they weren't. They only said they were to justify needlessly cruel experiments.

Thank you. Anyone who thought they were morally grey bought into their propaganda.

Also, nice avatar!

Then all people involved in research like Project Manhatan are evil.
All things that cause directly and inderectly pain to others can be considered evil.
Then the fact of someone stealing bread to feed its family can be considered evil since theres no concept  of "grey" in morality only black and white.

Those depend on personal values. I could not care for grey morality and also thing that stealing bread to feed your family isn't wrong.

I get what you're saying, but what we meant was more like: They are, and have always been, antagonists.

They always have been antagonists. Thats a certainty, but they werent the primary antagonists, that role belonged to the Reapers. 
In ME3 Cerberus became the primary antagonists, you face them every time and its forgotten that the Reapers are trying to kill every one as opposed to the pro humans that although a treath arent destroying planets like Palaven or Earth. 
You only face the Reapers as the true enemy in the last half hour of the game, were suddently those massive Cerberus armies you faced simply dissapear.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 30 novembre 2012 - 03:07 .

[BleedingUranium]

Twinzam.V wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Implying that Cerberus was "morally grey" from the start. Which they weren't. They only said they were to justify needlessly cruel experiments.

Thank you. Anyone who thought they were morally grey bought into their propaganda.

Also, nice avatar!

Then all people involved in research like Project Manhatan are evil.
All things that cause directly and inderectly pain to others can be considered evil.
Then the fact of someone stealing bread to feed its family can be considered evil since theres no concept  of "grey" in morality only black and white.

Those depend on personal values. I could not care for grey morality and also thing that stealing bread to feed your family isn't wrong.

I get what you're saying, but what we meant was more like: They are, and have always been, antagonists.

They always have been antagonists. Thats a certainty, but they werent the primary antagonists, that role belonged to the Reapers.
In ME3 Cerberus became the primary antagonists, you face them every time and its forgotten that the Reapers are trying to kill every one as opposed to the pro humans that although a treath arent destroying planets like Palaven or Earth.
You only face the Reapers as the true enemy in the last half hour of the game, were suddently those massive Cerberus armies you faced simply dissapear.

While I agree there should've been more Reapers, less Cerberus, it's not that bad. More like 50/50.

Remember that every enemy you fight in ME3 is indoctrinated, and thus working for the Reapers. Even in MP.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 30 novembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[Reorte]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Didn't you know, stories don't have to make sense, they're just there to give a setting for shooting things. If you actually want an engaging, logical story you're a sad nitpicker, get a life and enjoy simply shooting stuff.

I think Mass Effect might be the wrong game series for you, then. Halo might even be too much for you. Better go play CoD, but only after CoD4, because it actually had a story and was good.

I was being sarcastic you realise.

[Yate]

Reorte wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Didn't you know, stories don't have to make sense, they're just there to give a setting for shooting things. If you actually want an engaging, logical story you're a sad nitpicker, get a life and enjoy simply shooting stuff.

I think Mass Effect might be the wrong game series for you, then. Halo might even be too much for you. Better go play CoD, but only after CoD4, because it actually had a story and was good.

I was being sarcastic you realise.

HAHHAHAHHHA

[Yate]

this thread is like complaining that you had to fight mercs in ME2 when the real enemy was the collectors

or krogan in ME1

I still fail to understand how Cerberus in ME3 could've taken anyone by surprise

[Yate]

I mean really, if you're complaining about enemy variety, you've hit rock bottom. Move on with your life instead of making up problems with ME3 to try and justify your butthurt.