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[Display Name Owner]

I guess Cerberus' efforts to hinder the war effort was the result of indoctrination. Given that TIM took the astoundingly stupid decision to hang the Human-Reaper's largely intact remains up right outside his office, it's safe to assume that he and the rest of Cerberus command have been subtly indoctrinated since after ME2. It's not complex or interesting, but it explains things. Personally, I wish they'd not just gone the 'indoctrination' route with Cerberus, or given them so much focus at all, but there it is.

I suppose they made way too much of a big deal of Cerberus in ME2 to just discard them in ME3. I mean, I actually do enjoy fighting Cerberus enemies from a gameplay perspective, but storywise, they were just far too prominent. It's not just about how much you see them, but how much stuff they do. It feels like they're behind every major event or innovation in the galaxy, achieving the impossible everywhere whilst every other faction sits around twiddling their thumbs.

They invade Sur'Kesh, they seize Omega, the effective capital of an entire region of space; they invade the Citadel (albeit with inside help); they kickstart the downfall of the all-knowing Shadow Broker; they uncover the secrets of Indoctrination, a technology unique to a race millions of years more advanced than any other; they bring a person back to life; they happen to discover a derelict Reaper; the Illusive Man seems to know everything that goes on everywhere and is capable of manipulating absolutely anyone he pleases... It's just too much. What are the agents and scientists of the other species doing in all this time? Because aside from the Thanix Cannon, I can't think of one important achievement from the lot of them.

Phew. Hate to go off on one, since I do actually like ME3 a lot, but this is something that really bugs me about Mass Effect.

[N7 Shadow 90]

You said it yourself, The Illusive Man was indoctrinated. The Illusive Man touched a Reaper artifact on Shanxi in The First Contact War, if I remember correctly. It's been a while since I read that comic. So The Illusive Man was being slowly indoctrinated ever since before the events of the trilogy, the way I see it. Everything that Cerberus do in ME3 is either supporting the Reapers, or interfering with Shepard, or his/her ally's plans. All of the Cerberus troopers are indoctrinated too, so they would follow these orders, without question.
I believe that The Illusive Man was being swayed by the Reapers, slightly, ever since the end of ME2. Him wanting Shepard to save the Collector Base could have been the Reapers influence, in my opinion. He was mostly indoctrinated until he (By the Reaper's influence) implemented Reaper technology. After that point, he was fully indoctrinated, and that's why he told the Reapers of the plan to use the Crucible. The fact that The Illusive man, for the first time in the series, has a clearly indoctrinated face shows this. The earlier, slightly indoctrinated, Illusive Man, had them mysterious blue eyes. He was starting to be controlled.
The Illusive Man, does however, break through the indoctrination attempt at some points during ME3, for example, Sanctuary, Horizon. He found a way to oppose the Reapers. After a long time his mind was finally, fully, controlled, at the end of ME3.

Modifié par N7 Shadow 90, 30 novembre 2012 - 04:26 .

[DeinonSlayer]

To give Shepard faceless humanoid mooks to shoot at. No other reason.

[Seboist]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

To give Shepard faceless humanoid mooks to shoot at. No other reason.

Yeah, they're just a more retarded version of the Sesame Street mercs from ME2.

[Kel Riever]

I'll stand up for Cerberus being mindless mooks to shoot at. They are a more interesting thing to shoot at than Reapers and Geth anyway.

Having said that, things could have been explained better. One of my complaints is it just seems so easy for Cerberus to invade the Citadel. Whether you buy it or not, it seems quite a bit much and I'm left to wonder if an organization has that much power, couldn't they have done much more frightening things if they are on the path to indoctrination?

Cerberus, the concept as an enemy, isn't a problem for me nor is their appearance. What is a problem is there are some plot holes, if you will, that make you wonder a lot about them. I just think that Kai Leng is unnecessary, the Citadel attack is unecessary, and a lot of the rest of it is fine. Going beyond the Omega 4 relay...not a problem. Shepard DID communicate with the Illusive man from the other side...I had no problem head cannoning things like that once a transmission got through, with his resources, he could have figured out the rest (and yeah, there were probably even more losses figuring it out...but who cares? send in the bodies).

[IntoTheDarkness]

Fans happy as long as they have something to shoot at, and for a good and long time. So yeah Ceberus doesn't make sense as much as anything else in ME3.

[Kabooooom]

Guglio08 wrote...

- Cerberus invades the Citadel and attempts to kill the Council. Why?

To implement Udina as the sole council member. They made some sort of deal with him, presumably they would get him into power in exchange for control over the Citadel like they have control over Omega, I would guess.

What people often miss is that for the entirety of ME3, TIM is likely partially, if not fully indoctrinated and all of his forces ARE indoctrinated (although their research allows Cerberus to gain some control over them). Much of their actions make sense from a perspective of indoctrination, which is probably what Bioware intended. From a perspective of Cerberus Indoctrination, the Reapers exploit TIM's lust for power and use it to attempt to gain control of the Citadel.

- Cerberus steals the Prothean VI from Thessia. I guess this is to prevent Shepard from learning what the Catalyst is.

Not entirely. TIM believes that he can use the Crucible to control the Reapers, instead of destroy them. But he needs to know what the Catalyst is as well - he has no clue. He has allowed the Alliance to build the Crucible with the intent of actually using it himself. He needs the Prothean VI equally as much as the Alliance does.

- The Illusive Man flees to the Citadel, tells the Reapers of Shepard's plan, and had Reaper implants put into him. Um, what? This part makes no sense at all. I understand that The Illusive Man is indoctrinated and stuff, but from his point of view, I don't understand how this is at all a logical idea.

This part is my own explanation, gleaned from evidence in the game: It is likely that the research from Sanctuary was vital to altering the Crucible to Control the Reapers (that was TIM's goal for the entire game, if you remember). He sent Kai Leng there to retrieve it for him. He knows several things at this point. He knows that the Citadel is the Catalyst, and that the Crucible must dock with it to work. It is reasonable that he must physically go to the Citadel to alter it in some fashion in order to allow Control to be a viable option. This would require unlimited access to the Citadel, which would only be possible if a) he staged another coup (not happening) or  The Reapers invaded, and all hell breaks loose. He chooses the latter.

As far as altering himself, he believes he can control/resist the implants. He was foolish, but confident.

- Cerberus unleashes Adjutants from beyond the Omega 4 Relay (how, exactly?) onto Omega and then takes the station over. Apparently this was done so they could eventually turn the residents of Omega into Cerberus-obedient Adjutants. But why? And for what purpose?

This is all explained in the comics.

It seems to me that Cerberus would have had a much easier time letting Shepard do whatever, hiding in the shadows with their Sanctuary thing, then when Shepard attempts to dock the Crucible, they usurp it and use it to control the Reapers. The gameplay reasons for them being cartoonishly evil are obvious - BioWare didn't want us to fight the same seven enemy types all game - but their actual story motivations are completely non-existent.

In Retribution, the Alliance deals a massive blow to Cerberus a few months before ME3 takes place. ALL of their major bases/facilities are destroyed, and TIM is nearly killed himself. They are short on manpower, and all they have left is what is beyond the Omega-4 relay. He knows the Reapers are invading, so what does he do? In ME3, they are seen forcefully abducting people. This is to bolster their ranks. He recruits, abducts, and then indoctrinates them into a new army. This is the only way he can combat both the Alliance and the Reapers simultaneously.

Anything he can do to oppose the Alliance's progress is appropriate, and anything he can do to gain more strategic control over the galaxy is appropriate. So that is pretty much what he does, for the entire story.

Was Cerberus handled poorly in ME3? Yes. Are they purely cartoonish villains? No, not really. I didn't have nearly as much of a problem with them as other people did, but I think that's because I've read the books, and I understood that Cerberus had to make a transition from the organization of ME2 to the much more aggressive and militaristic organization in ME3, if they were going to survive in the coming chaos.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 30 novembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[Gulaman]

Because TIM is indoctrinated and he wants to save the Reapers, whereas Shep and co want to destroy them? Makes sense why Cerberus are involved but the extent of their involvement is LUDICROUS. They're everywhere, every damn point int the galaxy Cerberus can be found.
I don't have a problem with Cerberus being in the game but I do object to their newfound superpower that allows them to be everywhere.

[nos_astra]

Kabooooom wrote...
In Retribution, the Alliance deals a massive blow to Cerberus a few months before ME3 takes place. ALL of their major bases/facilities are destroyed, and TIM is nearly killed himself. They are short on manpower, and all they have left is what is beyond the Omega-4 relay. He knows the Reapers are invading, so what does he do? In ME3, they are seen forcefully abducting people. This is to bolster their ranks. He recruits, abducts, and then indoctrinates them into a new army. This is the only way he can combat both the Alliance and the Reapers simultaneously. 

And after this massive blow to Cerberus they somehow manage to find the ressources to build a fleet and equip an army strong enough to tackle multiple enemies at the same time. After TIM pretty much thought they were screwed and wanted to off himself.



Where do the ships, the armor and weapons come from? 

Modifié par klarabella, 30 novembre 2012 - 06:40 .

[DeathScepter]

klarabella wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...
In Retribution, the Alliance deals a massive blow to Cerberus a few months before ME3 takes place. ALL of their major bases/facilities are destroyed, and TIM is nearly killed himself. They are short on manpower, and all they have left is what is beyond the Omega-4 relay. He knows the Reapers are invading, so what does he do? In ME3, they are seen forcefully abducting people. This is to bolster their ranks. He recruits, abducts, and then indoctrinates them into a new army. This is the only way he can combat both the Alliance and the Reapers simultaneously. 

And after this massive blow to Cerberus they somehow manage to find the ressources to build a fleet and equip an army strong enough to tackle multiple enemies at the same time. After TIM pretty much thought they were screwed and wanted to off himself.



Where do the ships, the armor and weapons come from? 

:alien:Space Magic.... that is my answer.:alien: Reaper Space Magic explains everything.

[steamcamel]

So they could lure us in with Martin Sheen playing some kind of illusive cigaretclichéman who is going to do...something.

As far as I'm concerned, everything concerning Cerberus in me3 (which is pretty much the whole game), is just a typo in the script.

I just plain hated the illusive man, kai lame and the entire role cerberus had in the story. It was way over-emphasized and made no sense for me to care about.

That's why my fondest memories were the liberation of Tuchanka and Rannoch, because there was a clear threat and something was actually at stake.

Modifié par steamcamel, 30 novembre 2012 - 07:14 .

[NRieh]

He recruits, abducts, and then indoctrinates them into a new army. This is the only way he can combat both the Alliance and the Reapers simultaneously.

Wait. But only reapers can indoctrinate, no? I mean Cerberus really turned people into husks.

But same as with Saren - I don't see how he could indoctrinate anyone. Saren could not, it was Sovereign that did things to Benezia and others and made them obey Saren. Same goes for TIM, I guess. He could do nasty things in labs, but where do you get that he had ways of spreading indoctrination? Reaper artifacts served only Reapers, as I understand it. What he did to Shep after beam - was not indoctrination. He manipulated body, not will.

[Fixers0]

beacuse plot, that's why.

[T-Raks]

Yup, OP, that is still the question of the hour. I had high hopes that Omega would shed some light on what Cerberus is up to, but I got nothing out of it and the Cerberus arch still doesn't make any sense, which is THE tragedy of ME3. Finding out about Cerberus plan was the only motivation for my Shep to go to Omega in the first place after the main game failed to deliver a logical Cerberus arch. Now I'm nearly as empty regarding ME3 as I was after first finishing the game.

It looks more and more like the Reapers were too big an opponent to write lots of and good story missions around (because usually you can't fight them on foot with your two squadmates), so Cerberus took on the position of the main antagonist group without any good story reasoning, just so you have something to shoot at.

Trying to take control of the Citadel after Thessia (learning about the Catalyst) and after building their own crucible (maybe on Omega or with Omega as resource) to be able to control the Reapers? Might have been a plan. Building a different Reaper control weapon on Omega? OK, sounds about right. Decoding the secrets of the catalyst/crucible first, seeing that it is THE key to their goal, letting the Alliance etc. do all the work and then sneak in at the last second? Great idea!

Instead it looks a bit like a bad business plan:
1) Be everywhere, try to control anyone.
2) ?
3) Profit.

So far, they try to hinder us where and whenever they can, though in the end our work is the key for their plan. Alright? How did that look on your tactical board Mr. Illusive Man? Ah, I see, you are not that good with Xs and Os...

Modifié par T-Raks, 30 novembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Nrieh wrote...

He recruits, abducts, and then indoctrinates them into a new army. This is the only way he can combat both the Alliance and the Reapers simultaneously.

Wait. But only reapers can indoctrinate, no?

Incorrect.

I mean Cerberus really turned people into husks.

Not quite. Husks were the means by which Cerberus learned to control them, but Cerberus troopers are more akin to implant-indotrination akin to Saren.

But same as with Saren - I don't see how he could indoctrinate anyone. Saren could not, it was Sovereign that did things to Benezia and others and made them obey Saren. Same goes for TIM, I guess. He could do nasty things in labs, but where do you get that he had ways of spreading indoctrination? Reaper artifacts served only Reapers, as I understand it. What he did to Shep after beam - was not indoctrination. He manipulated body, not will.

What the Illusive Man did on the Citadel was not indoctrination, correct. However, Cerberus learned how to utilize indoctrination for their own purposes using technology salvaged from the Collectors.

[Kabooooom]

Where do the ships, the armor and weapons come from?

TIM is a multi-billionaire. He knows the end of the galaxy is coming. He liquidates his assets. It really does not require that much hard thinking on it compared to other 'wtf' moments of ME3. There's no reason to hang onto his money anymore, or carefully orchestrate his shadow organization behind front companies. Sell it all, pour everything into Cerberus.

Wait. But only reapers can indoctrinate, no? I mean Cerberus really turned people into husks.

Not so. Read the books - ME3 is really perplexing without them. I do appreciate that they were trying to tie in other media, but it makes it really confusing for people that haven't read them. Grayson's story is the first part of the puzzle. Cerberus acquires Reaper nanites from beyond the Omega-4 relay. This gradually converts Grayson into a husk, but on the way he becomes Indoctrinated as he still has part of his mind intact, and he describes what it feels like. He is rapidly converted, and becomes mindless, which is what happens when someone is indoctrinated rapidly compared to over a long period of time. Over a long period, it is insidious - you don't realize you are indoctrinated until it is too late. But quickly, you feel the Reapers reaching into your brain, bending you to their will. You can still resist, but it is difficult, and you are aware of it.

This is analogous to being directly exposed to Reaper tech...because he was. Most people are exposed externally. He was injected with it. And this is what Cerberus does to their troops. They have learned to somewhat control the process, and they partially huskify their troops. But, if you remember, in ME3 it was described that the troops were hearing voices after this process - they were indoctrinated, but subsequently controlled by Cerberus.

How they did this, I don't know, but they probably used a control implant like they did with the Adjutants. Cerberus had this technology all the way back before ME2, according to Miranda.

What the Illusive Man did on the Citadel was not indoctrination, correct. However, Cerberus learned how to utilize indoctrination for their own purposes using technology salvaged from the Collectors.

Dean gets it. Thumbs up.

It is interesting to me that most people didn't pick up on this. Honestly, I didn't until my second playthrough of ME3. When that happens, it means they did a really crappy job with the story telling. I mean, I got that they were screwing around with indoctrination, but the motivation and extent was vague to me. The books helped fill that in more than ME3 did.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[T-Raks]

Guys, that is all fine, but that is not what is missing in the Cerberus arch. The Cerberus arch lacks a master plan on how the Illusive Man thinks he can win this war by controlling the Reapers. Using the (our) crucible can't be his plan, because a) he tries to hide the plans from us and he tries whenever he can to hinder us to get important help to build it and c) he tries whenever he can to sabotage alliances that could help us keep it safe from the Reapers.

So the big question is: what is HIS plan. Where is his reaper control weapon/crucible/whatever? What is he gonna do about dem Reapers other than help them? He can do all that other **** (some because of starting indoctrination and what not/ which is a bad cop-out for erratic behavior though) when he has an alternative plan on how to win this war that doesn't include our help.

Modifié par T-Raks, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[xsdob]

I don't see how your confused, it all seems to make sense to me.

+Cerberus becomes aware of the crucible project and goes in to steal it. With the reapers arriving into sole they are forced to accerlerate their plans to steal it and thus are forced to kill everyone to get to the prothean archives to ensure no one alerts the alliance that the project is in jepordey. Shepard getting there when he did was just dumb luck.

+Cerberus is fighting for human dominance and the eventual control of the reapers to serve humanities inerest, a krogan-turian alliance could pose a threat if it panned out, since they could be used by the council to destroy their plans before they can be acheived, thus destroying the allaince becomes a prioritey.

+Cerberus fails to stop the alliance, and so determines to take over the council who controls the allaince, rather than trying to fight them head on. They orchestrate the coup so that udina, the head of the cerberus political branch(hinted at), can become the head of the council and help them keep things ready for their seizing of power from the reapers.

+Cerberus discovers that there is a prothean VI on thessia that can help them find the key to the crucible, and thus key to their plan to take over the reapers, and go to get it before the alliance does. They begin trying to find out what the catalyst is and where to find it.

+Cerberus is using sanctuary to create it's large armies, not just make husk. It's why they have so many forces working for them in the first place and where they get their implants from.

+Cerberus discovers that the catalyst is the citadel and move to try and capture it, unknowingly alerting the reapers to this fact as well. The reapers come and take the citadel shortly after cerberus has reached the station and their close presences causes TIM-s implants to go into overtime.

+Cerberus was expeirementing on ways to take over the reapers using multiple means. They were also trying to study the adjudant virus, and find a way to create powerful shock troopers from them, like what they tried with the rachni. Omega also made an excellent staging ground to launch assaults into council space and to seize control of the terminus systems, as aria explains. It also has a large supply of eezo, which is a very useful element in createing the artificial biotics cerberus uses as well as making ships and weapons, which they do.


It's all working towards the goal of weakening the galaxy enough so that cerberus faces little resistence when they take over. Without the alien's united, they will be easily taken control of, and with the crucible the reapers will become humanities tool for enforcing their rule over the galaxy.

Modifié par xsdob, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[T-Raks]

Sorry, double post.

Modifié par T-Raks, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[nos_astra]

Kabooooom wrote...

Where do the ships, the armor and weapons come from?

TIM is a multi-billionaire. He knows the end of the galaxy is coming. He liquidates his assets. It really does not require that much hard thinking on it compared to other 'wtf' moments of ME3. There's no reason to hang onto his money anymore, or carefully orchestrate his shadow organization behind front companies. Sell it all, pour everything into Cerberus.

What assets? Weren't most of his assets blown up or something? I mean, he wanted to kill himself. The situation must have been really dire. Didn't he also use most of this money to recreate Shepard and the Normandy? 

When and where did he buy all the stuff? Let's for a moment assume that building space ships is similar to building ships because we have no other reference, so yeah, costly and time-consuming. This can't have been a long-term plan or his emo episode (I'M RUINED! ALL MY PLANS WHERE FOR NAUGHT! I WANNA DIIIIIIE!) wouldn't make sense. Did he suddenly get a grip and decide to put all that beautiful money to good use? How come no one notices this? Like the SHADOW BROKER!

You're right, better not to think too hard about it and it will all make perfect sense: Stuff happened for reasons and lots of money. Moving on.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:08 .

[Bill Casey]

What assets?

Omega and Sanctuary for two...
Omega is essentially a mountain of red sand and eezo...
A giant money factory...

And people are paying top dollar for Sanctuary...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:08 .

[nos_astra]

Bill Casey wrote...

What assets?

Omega and Sanctuary for two...
Omega is essentially a mountain of red sand and eezo...
A giant money factory...

And people are paying top dollar for Sanctuary...

And he sends that money back in time?

[T-Raks]

BTW: I forget to mention that he tries to kill us when he finds out that the Citadel is the missing part to the crucible puzzle on Thessia - so how again does he want to control the Reapers when the ones that have the crucible have no clue about that important part of the puzzle in case he succeeds?

Does he think he can "overwrite" the catalyst without a crucible? Then tell us how he comes to that thought (without even knowing that the catalyst for the crucible is not the Citadel itself but Starbrat)...

Modifié par T-Raks, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:16 .

[Anti-killer]

Cerberus can defy Black Holes.

Everything on that list is a piece of ****** for any group that can defy a Black Hole...

[Mello]

Astralify wrote...

This has being discussed many times. It wasn't supposed to make sense. As long as you have something to shoot at. That's biowEAre's new priority.

This.
Some game antagonists are just there so you can just attack them. For example, Pac-Man why does the ghosts want Pac-Man? He just wanted to eat some dots why didn't Pac Man turn around and tell them to ****** off? I didn't find Cerberus useless or anything, I mean they did give me some good war assets.