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[Outsider edge]

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

why not?

Because they simply shouldn't have the manpower or equipment too do so. In ME1 and ME2 Cerberus are a shadowy group whose primary are research and espionage. In ME3 it's a full fledged army rivalling the Alliance/turians whatever. The timeline between the end of ME2 and ME3 is a mere six months in that time the Illusive man apparently acts as a Saruman on steroids and createshundreds of thousands of troops entire dreadnought fleets enough coordination too strike all over the galaxy, still has the resources too also have reliably intel on all the important bits so his goons can sweep in. It's just dumb. There was nothing wrong with having a faction that tried too hinder progress like what Javik said happened with the Prothians. But this is so far beyond hindering it's hilarious Cerberus are the main opposition in this game or at least it feels that way and there's simply no reason for that bar bad writing.

Please...

They siezed Omega, a huge store of eezo, and they are using Reaper tech to augment their forces. They got their money back.

Six months....that's how long it took them too build up their army of doom. Asfor their money back that's doubtfull since if they needed something they would have had too build it themselves. Turians and Asari are looking after their own devices and the galaxy wide economy is on it's ass or should be.

The point is the Cerberus of ME1 and ME2 should never had the capabilities too take over Omega in the first place let alone do all the other stuff. It's just lousy writing too buff them up too uber standards so Bioware can roll them out at as many oppertunities as they can. Add the asspull on Mars with the Superweapon™, the bad dreams Shepard has that turn out too have no meaning and a truckload of other stuff and one can see that ME3 has alot bigger problems than a mediocre ending. The ending is a sympthome of something much worse a severly mediocre main plot.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[txgoldrush]

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

why not?

Because they simply shouldn't have the manpower or equipment too do so. In ME1 and ME2 Cerberus are a shadowy group whose primary are research and espionage. In ME3 it's a full fledged army rivalling the Alliance/turians whatever. The timeline between the end of ME2 and ME3 is a mere six months in that time the Illusive man apparently acts as a Saruman on steroids and createshundreds of thousands of troops entire dreadnought fleets enough coordination too strike all over the galaxy, still has the resources too also have reliably intel on all the important bits so his goons can sweep in. It's just dumb. There was nothing wrong with having a faction that tried too hinder progress like what Javik said happened with the Prothians. But this is so far beyond hindering it's hilarious Cerberus are the main opposition in this game or at least it feels that way and there's simply no reason for that bar bad writing.

Please...

They siezed Omega, a huge store of eezo, and they are using Reaper tech to augment their forces. They got their money back.

Great now how did they abduct/ recruit enough personnel for their army pre war without anyone noticing? Where did they build the ships? How did they build the ships given how long construction on that scale takes? How did no-one notice? How did they train their personnel - especially their naval forces?

And they needed the army to seize Omega so that doesn't work as an explanation anyway....

and yet, really how big is their army and navy?

Because in fact, on Eden Prime they have to hide the fact that they have low numbers so th ecolonists don't overrun them.

Hell, the biggest reason Cerebrus is successful is because of their intellgence. They are at the right place at the right time. Thats how they came close to taking the Citadel and they got Omega by trickery.

[paul165]

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Because they wanted(Mac) the Sith Empire in Mass Effect

This and they couldn't work out a way to make fighting Reaper forces all game interesting - the point they realised this was probably the point they should have realised how screwed they were for the whole game.

After all they did what ?5? types of reaper enemy in the game only 2 of which were even potentially a threat.

So instead they added space ninjas and turned a small black ops group into the Galactic Empire:sick:

or yet read the post I just quoted about the themes Cerebrus brings to the series.

stop being ignorant.

First lose the insults.

Second the whole "dark side of humanity" thing. I read it I just thought it was the worst excuse for poor writing since the synthesis support threads. There are ways of doing human ambition as a theme that don't require Imperial Stormtroopers, Space Ninja and Villain dark matter (see ME2 Cerberus) ME3 Cerberus only exists to give players something to shoot.

[txgoldrush]

Outsider edge wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

why not?

Because they simply shouldn't have the manpower or equipment too do so. In ME1 and ME2 Cerberus are a shadowy group whose primary are research and espionage. In ME3 it's a full fledged army rivalling the Alliance/turians whatever. The timeline between the end of ME2 and ME3 is a mere six months in that time the Illusive man apparently acts as a Saruman on steroids and createshundreds of thousands of troops entire dreadnought fleets enough coordination too strike all over the galaxy, still has the resources too also have reliably intel on all the important bits so his goons can sweep in. It's just dumb. There was nothing wrong with having a faction that tried too hinder progress like what Javik said happened with the Prothians. But this is so far beyond hindering it's hilarious Cerberus are the main opposition in this game or at least it feels that way and there's simply no reason for that bar bad writing.

Please...

They siezed Omega, a huge store of eezo, and they are using Reaper tech to augment their forces. They got their money back.

Six months....that's how long it took them too build up their army of doom. Asfor their money back that's doubtfull since if they needed something they would have had too build it themselves. Turians and Asari are looking after their own devices and the galaxy wide economy is on it's ass or should be.

The point is the Cerberus of ME1 and ME2 should never had the capabilities too take over Omega in the first place let alone do all the other stuff. It's just lousy writing too buff them up too uber standards so Bioware can roll them out at as many oppertunities as they can. Add the asspull on Mars with the Superweapon™, the bad dreams Shepard has that turn out too have no meaning and a truckload of stuff more and one can see that ME3 has alot bigger problems that a mediocre ending. The ending is a sympthome of something much worse a severly mediocre main plot.

Please, than the Conduit in ME1 is an asspull, so is Tali's intro, so is the Cipher, so is Vigil.....oh no, precious ME1 is contrived....lol. You really want to go this route, because everybody who criticixes ME3 for being contrived while touting ME1 is either ignorant, or a hypocrite.

Nevermind the Lazarus Project, or the Reaper IFF, or that way the ship is emptied of squadmates so Joker can have his moments...ME2 is contrived too, it opens with a Deus Ex Machina.

[txgoldrush]

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Because they wanted(Mac) the Sith Empire in Mass Effect

This and they couldn't work out a way to make fighting Reaper forces all game interesting - the point they realised this was probably the point they should have realised how screwed they were for the whole game.

After all they did what ?5? types of reaper enemy in the game only 2 of which were even potentially a threat.

So instead they added space ninjas and turned a small black ops group into the Galactic Empire:sick:

or yet read the post I just quoted about the themes Cerebrus brings to the series.

stop being ignorant.

First lose the insults.

Second the whole "dark side of humanity" thing. I read it I just thought it was the worst excuse for poor writing since the synthesis support threads. There are ways of doing human ambition as a theme that don't require Imperial Stormtroopers, Space Ninja and Villain dark matter (see ME2 Cerberus) ME3 Cerberus only exists to give players something to shoot.

wrong

Did you even get how Shepard wand TIM are foils? It has to do with the main theme of ME3....sacrifice.

You are simply blind to the themes of the game.

[paul165]

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

why not?

Because they simply shouldn't have the manpower or equipment too do so. In ME1 and ME2 Cerberus are a shadowy group whose primary are research and espionage. In ME3 it's a full fledged army rivalling the Alliance/turians whatever. The timeline between the end of ME2 and ME3 is a mere six months in that time the Illusive man apparently acts as a Saruman on steroids and createshundreds of thousands of troops entire dreadnought fleets enough coordination too strike all over the galaxy, still has the resources too also have reliably intel on all the important bits so his goons can sweep in. It's just dumb. There was nothing wrong with having a faction that tried too hinder progress like what Javik said happened with the Prothians. But this is so far beyond hindering it's hilarious Cerberus are the main opposition in this game or at least it feels that way and there's simply no reason for that bar bad writing.

Please...

They siezed Omega, a huge store of eezo, and they are using Reaper tech to augment their forces. They got their money back.

Great now how did they abduct/ recruit enough personnel for their army pre war without anyone noticing? Where did they build the ships? How did they build the ships given how long construction on that scale takes? How did no-one notice? How did they train their personnel - especially their naval forces?

And they needed the army to seize Omega so that doesn't work as an explanation anyway....

and yet, really how big is their army and navy?

Because in fact, on Eden Prime they have to hide the fact that they have low numbers so th ecolonists don't overrun them.

Hell, the biggest reason Cerebrus is successful is because of their intellgence. They are at the right place at the right time. Thats how they came close to taking the Citadel and they got Omega by trickery.

Go and have a look at the size of the fleet guiding their base or Omega- their fleet is huge big enough to stand and fight against the combined forces guarding the crucible making them a major military power in their own right. This makes no sense in the light of previous lore about the organisation.

[Someone With Mass]

txgoldrush wrote...

or yet read the post I just quoted about the themes Cerebrus brings to the series.

stop being ignorant.

Stop pretending to be intellectually superior through petty insults.

Also, they really need money above everything else (especially when they just spent billions on creating a small army) when their race is facing extinction.

So much good the augmentation did them when we and other characters are mowing them down by the dozens.

[Outsider edge]

And that should be excused then? I'm not touting ME1 at all that game had it's share of problems but the total package and overall plot were fine.
Many defenders like you yourself constantly applaud the quality writing on display while that's simply not the case. Cerberus roll in ME3 is alot bigger then it should have been both thematically or in combination with the main plot. The cruscible itself could have worked eventhough it's somewhat contrived but i find it hard too believe everyone and their grandmother knows it can deal with the reapers even when they don't even have a clue how too build it. It's being put on a pedestal as the big sollution far too quickly. You could almost hear a sigh of relieve coming from the writer chambers at Bio HQ after u leave Mars: "We done it guys we found a way too tie this story up!".

[txgoldrush]

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

why not?

Because they simply shouldn't have the manpower or equipment too do so. In ME1 and ME2 Cerberus are a shadowy group whose primary are research and espionage. In ME3 it's a full fledged army rivalling the Alliance/turians whatever. The timeline between the end of ME2 and ME3 is a mere six months in that time the Illusive man apparently acts as a Saruman on steroids and createshundreds of thousands of troops entire dreadnought fleets enough coordination too strike all over the galaxy, still has the resources too also have reliably intel on all the important bits so his goons can sweep in. It's just dumb. There was nothing wrong with having a faction that tried too hinder progress like what Javik said happened with the Prothians. But this is so far beyond hindering it's hilarious Cerberus are the main opposition in this game or at least it feels that way and there's simply no reason for that bar bad writing.

Please...

They siezed Omega, a huge store of eezo, and they are using Reaper tech to augment their forces. They got their money back.

Great now how did they abduct/ recruit enough personnel for their army pre war without anyone noticing? Where did they build the ships? How did they build the ships given how long construction on that scale takes? How did no-one notice? How did they train their personnel - especially their naval forces?

And they needed the army to seize Omega so that doesn't work as an explanation anyway....

and yet, really how big is their army and navy?

Because in fact, on Eden Prime they have to hide the fact that they have low numbers so th ecolonists don't overrun them.

Hell, the biggest reason Cerebrus is successful is because of their intellgence. They are at the right place at the right time. Thats how they came close to taking the Citadel and they got Omega by trickery.

Go and have a look at the size of the fleet guiding their base or Omega- their fleet is huge big enough to stand and fight against the combined forces guarding the crucible making them a major military power in their own right. This makes no sense in the light of previous lore about the organisation.

Wrong

Did you not even pay attention?

Aria's fleet commander said that they had no problems with the Cerebrus ships, its Omega's new cannons that were the problem. There fleet in itself isn;t that significant. However, they are a problem from the intellegence they have.

[paul165]

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Because they wanted(Mac) the Sith Empire in Mass Effect

This and they couldn't work out a way to make fighting Reaper forces all game interesting - the point they realised this was probably the point they should have realised how screwed they were for the whole game.

After all they did what ?5? types of reaper enemy in the game only 2 of which were even potentially a threat.

So instead they added space ninjas and turned a small black ops group into the Galactic Empire:sick:

or yet read the post I just quoted about the themes Cerebrus brings to the series.

stop being ignorant.

First lose the insults.

Second the whole "dark side of humanity" thing. I read it I just thought it was the worst excuse for poor writing since the synthesis support threads. There are ways of doing human ambition as a theme that don't require Imperial Stormtroopers, Space Ninja and Villain dark matter (see ME2 Cerberus) ME3 Cerberus only exists to give players something to shoot.

wrong

Did you even get how Shepard wand TIM are foils? It has to do with the main theme of ME3....sacrifice.

You are simply blind to the themes of the game.

If your "theme" requires you to sacrifice narrative coherence, established lore and the basic logic of the setting in order to make it work....the theme shouldn't be there. It's one of the fundamental problems IMO with ME3 they sacrifice any logic and lore in favour of "awesome" (Kai Leng and his backing band) which isn't and "theme" (aka vision aka artistic integrity) requiring not just amnesia from the first two games but also restricting character choice to the extent there no longer is any.

Besides TIM in ME2 isn't your foil - unless you play as a particular flavour of paragon.

[txgoldrush]

Outsider edge wrote...

And that should be excused then? I'm not touting ME1 at all that game had it's share of problems but the total package and overall plot were fine.
Many defenders like you yourself constantly applaud the quality writing on display while that's simply not the case. Cerberus roll in ME3 is alot bigger then it should have been both thematically or in combination with the main plot. The cruscible itself could have worked eventhough it's somewhat contrived but i find it hard too believe everyone and their grandmother knows it can deal with the reapers even when they don't even have a clue how too build it. It's being put on a pedestal as the big sollution far too quickly. You could almost hear a sigh of relieve coming from the writer chambers at Bio HQ after u leave Mars: "We done it guys we found a way too tie this story up!".

And yet Liara's quest for the weapon is hinted in Shadow Broker DLC.

And could it be Liara knows what is because, you know, she is a Prothean researcher? They explain the dilemmas of the Crucible and how they approach building it. Their faith in it is simply part of the story elements because they have no other options.

No, ME1 is contrived all the way through, they simply make up new plot elements on the spot. Tell me the Cipher wasn't contrived. Hell, it manages to be both a Deus Ex Machina and a Diabolus Ex Machina at the same time.

[paul165]

txgoldrush wrote...

Wrong

Did you not even pay attention?

Aria's fleet commander said that they had no problems with the Cerebrus ships, its Omega's new cannons that were the problem. There fleet in itself isn;t that significant. However, they are a problem from the intellegence they have.

Again go and have a look at the cutscene beginning the assault on the Cerberus base and listen to what Hackett says about the number of forces they commit to the assault.

Then and only then come back and explain how the Cereberus fleet is "insignificant".

[paul165]

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

And that should be excused then? I'm not touting ME1 at all that game had it's share of problems but the total package and overall plot were fine.
Many defenders like you yourself constantly applaud the quality writing on display while that's simply not the case. Cerberus roll in ME3 is alot bigger then it should have been both thematically or in combination with the main plot. The cruscible itself could have worked eventhough it's somewhat contrived but i find it hard too believe everyone and their grandmother knows it can deal with the reapers even when they don't even have a clue how too build it. It's being put on a pedestal as the big sollution far too quickly. You could almost hear a sigh of relieve coming from the writer chambers at Bio HQ after u leave Mars: "We done it guys we found a way too tie this story up!".

And yet Liara's quest for the weapon is hinted in Shadow Broker DLC.

And could it be Liara knows what is because, you know, she is a Prothean researcher? They explain the dilemmas of the Crucible and how they approach building it. Their faith in it is simply part of the story elements because they have no other options.

No, ME1 is contrived all the way through, they simply make up new plot elements on the spot. Tell me the Cipher wasn't contrived. Hell, it manages to be both a Deus Ex Machina and a Diabolus Ex Machina at the same time.

And that is relevant to Cereberus because?.....

[Raizo]

Outsider edge wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

'Cause we need loads of goons to shoot.


Honestly, why did they bother adding the Reapers at all in ME3 when I fight Cerberus more often than them? The Reapers are background noise in ME3, they have hardly an appearance and are sidelined as the apparent 'main' antagonists. Not good writing, Bioware.

This i agree with. I had no problems dealing with an indoctrinated faction besides the Reapers themselves. But Cerberus is everywhere that it almost becomes comedy. Gives the feeling if they could have replaced the Reapers with Cerberus for the entire game they would have done so there's so much love for them. They attack everywhere, have an almost unlimited ammount of troops (Horizon must be working in overtime...), nigh unlimited ammount of ships since they turn up everywhere (did Darth Malak outsource his ship construction base from Kotor?) and have a way too big a part on the overall plot.

This

[txgoldrush]

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Because they wanted(Mac) the Sith Empire in Mass Effect

This and they couldn't work out a way to make fighting Reaper forces all game interesting - the point they realised this was probably the point they should have realised how screwed they were for the whole game.

After all they did what ?5? types of reaper enemy in the game only 2 of which were even potentially a threat.

So instead they added space ninjas and turned a small black ops group into the Galactic Empire:sick:

or yet read the post I just quoted about the themes Cerebrus brings to the series.

stop being ignorant.

First lose the insults.

Second the whole "dark side of humanity" thing. I read it I just thought it was the worst excuse for poor writing since the synthesis support threads. There are ways of doing human ambition as a theme that don't require Imperial Stormtroopers, Space Ninja and Villain dark matter (see ME2 Cerberus) ME3 Cerberus only exists to give players something to shoot.

wrong

Did you even get how Shepard wand TIM are foils? It has to do with the main theme of ME3....sacrifice.

You are simply blind to the themes of the game.

If your "theme" requires you to sacrifice narrative coherence, established lore and the basic logic of the setting in order to make it work....the theme shouldn't be there. It's one of the fundamental problems IMO with ME3 they sacrifice any logic and lore in favour of "awesome" (Kai Leng and his backing band) which isn't and "theme" (aka vision aka artistic integrity) requiring not just amnesia from the first two games but also restricting character choice to the extent there no longer is any.

Besides TIM in ME2 isn't your foil - unless you play as a particular flavour of paragon.

Please....

The last encounter with TIM highlights the fact that he is a foil of Shepard...its all in the narrative.

Face it, Cerebrus was heinous in ME1, or did you forget this. Hell, they were conducting Reaper experiments in ME1!!!!! Like studying Husks by killing colonists....sounds like Sanctuary to me. And thats the Colony of the Dead mission in ME1.

The novels and comics also cast them as antagonists. Hell, TIM's actions in Retribution and what they did with Greyson isn't morally grey. Niether was Kai Leng. Hell, Leng murders Aria's daughter in cold blood.

Its you that are ignoring clear plot elements that disprove your case.

[txgoldrush]

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Wrong

Did you not even pay attention?

Aria's fleet commander said that they had no problems with the Cerebrus ships, its Omega's new cannons that were the problem. There fleet in itself isn;t that significant. However, they are a problem from the intellegence they have.

Again go and have a look at the cutscene beginning the assault on the Cerberus base and listen to what Hackett says about the number of forces they commit to the assault.

Then and only then come back and explain how the Cereberus fleet is "insignificant".

and yet the Alliance sends only one fleet to take them out....

[RiouHotaru]

Actually, Cerberus has a very good reason for things they did. And not indoctrination either. But I highly doubt anyone on BSN will figure it out. It's just easier to call it bad writing and villain decay because it's not the "morally ambiguous" Cerberus from ME2

[Someone With Mass]

txgoldrush wrote...

Please....

The last encounter with TIM highlights the fact that he is a foil of Shepard...its all in the narrative.

Face it, Cerebrus was heinous in ME1, or did you forget this. Hell, they were conducting Reaper experiments in ME1!!!!! Like studying Husks by killing colonists....sounds like Sanctuary to me. And thats the Colony of the Dead mission in ME1.

The novels and comics also cast them as antagonists. Hell, TIM's actions in Retribution and what they did with Greyson isn't morally grey. Niether was Kai Leng. Hell, Leng murders Aria's daughter in cold blood.

Its you that are ignoring clear plot elements that disprove your case.

You're really missing the point.

The point is that Cerberus didn't need to be as big as they were in ME3, because it goes against the whole principle of their organization. That they needed to stick to the shadows and create diversions for their operations so that people wouldn't bring down the hammer on them. That they're vulnerable in the open. Their leader is even called by an adjective that suggests that they're relying on deceptions and secrets.

In ME3, that turns out to be completely wrong, since they can apparently pull fleets and armies out of their asses that rivals even the Alliance.

They're going all out so much that I don't think they need their secret funding from the company fronts anymore. Anyone could probably openly support them without any repercussions.

Sure, they got their money from rich people, but damn, does the whole thing feel contrived since apparently they have more money than the Earth's wealthiest nations combined.

If Cerberus had stuck to their original origin (an Alliance black ops team gone rogue), I think it for one would have been much more interesting to see how they handle problems beyond throwing a seemingly endless supply of mooks at them.

[RiouHotaru]

Someone With Mass wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Please....

The last encounter with TIM highlights the fact that he is a foil of Shepard...its all in the narrative.

Face it, Cerebrus was heinous in ME1, or did you forget this. Hell, they were conducting Reaper experiments in ME1!!!!! Like studying Husks by killing colonists....sounds like Sanctuary to me. And thats the Colony of the Dead mission in ME1.

The novels and comics also cast them as antagonists. Hell, TIM's actions in Retribution and what they did with Greyson isn't morally grey. Niether was Kai Leng. Hell, Leng murders Aria's daughter in cold blood.

Its you that are ignoring clear plot elements that disprove your case.

You're really missing the point.

The point is that Cerberus didn't need to be as big as they were in ME3, because it goes against the whole principle of their organization. That they needed to stick to the shadows and create diversions for their operations so that people wouldn't bring down the hammer on them. That they're vulnerable in the open. Their leader is even called by an adjective that suggests that they're relying on deceptions and secrets.

In ME3, that turns out to be completely wrong, since they can apparently pull fleets and armies out of their asses that rivals even the Alliance.

They're going all out so much that I don't think they need their secret funding from the company fronts anymore. Anyone could probably openly support them without any repercussions.

Sure, they got their money from rich people, but damn, does the whole thing feel contrived since apparently they have more money than the Earth's wealthiest nations combined.

If Cerberus had stuck to their original origin (an Alliance black ops team gone rogue), I think it for one would have been much more interesting to see how they handle problems beyond throwing a seemingly endless supply of mooks at them.

Did everyone forget that ME2 specifically stated they were focusing towards building up arms?  Ships/soldiers/guns?

So why in the world would TIM having a private army be a shock?  And they don't rival the Alliance.  The alliance NEVER brings it's full force to bear on Cerberus at any point.  As for the money, it's not the first time an eccentric but talented man has been worth tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars.  Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, etc, etc.  NOTHING about Cerberus breaks it's own character.  Even the transition from ME2 to 3 is incredibly consistent.

People just like to interpret the shift from mildly antagonistic to full antagonist as a step in the WRONG direction.  Which it's not.

[Outsider edge]

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

And that should be excused then? I'm not touting ME1 at all that game had it's share of problems but the total package and overall plot were fine.
Many defenders like you yourself constantly applaud the quality writing on display while that's simply not the case. Cerberus roll in ME3 is alot bigger then it should have been both thematically or in combination with the main plot. The cruscible itself could have worked eventhough it's somewhat contrived but i find it hard too believe everyone and their grandmother knows it can deal with the reapers even when they don't even have a clue how too build it. It's being put on a pedestal as the big sollution far too quickly. You could almost hear a sigh of relieve coming from the writer chambers at Bio HQ after u leave Mars: "We done it guys we found a way too tie this story up!".

And yet Liara's quest for the weapon is hinted in Shadow Broker DLC.

And could it be Liara knows what is because, you know, she is a Prothean researcher? They explain the dilemmas of the Crucible and how they approach building it. Their faith in it is simply part of the story elements because they have no other options.

No, ME1 is contrived all the way through, they simply make up new plot elements on the spot. Tell me the Cipher wasn't contrived. Hell, it manages to be both a Deus Ex Machina and a Diabolus Ex Machina at the same time.

And how would the Protheans know? They never finished building the damn thing. It's inception then nobody knows what it does going way back too earlier cycles but they all know it's capable of unfathomable levels of destruction and it will make quick work of the Reapers... Just face it it's an eleborate plotdevice too tie up a story they hadn't had a clue on how too finish.

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, then where has he been hiding this army of his? How the hell did no-one notice its movements? Surely it must've been using mass relays at one point. It also steps in with little to no introduction.

It goes from Cerberus gathering some more supporters (and suffering a pretty significant financial and tactical loss at the end of Retribution) to BOOM, they have a nation sized army.

[ioannisdenton]

Outsider edge wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

And that should be excused then? I'm not touting ME1 at all that game had it's share of problems but the total package and overall plot were fine.
Many defenders like you yourself constantly applaud the quality writing on display while that's simply not the case. Cerberus roll in ME3 is alot bigger then it should have been both thematically or in combination with the main plot. The cruscible itself could have worked eventhough it's somewhat contrived but i find it hard too believe everyone and their grandmother knows it can deal with the reapers even when they don't even have a clue how too build it. It's being put on a pedestal as the big sollution far too quickly. You could almost hear a sigh of relieve coming from the writer chambers at Bio HQ after u leave Mars: "We done it guys we found a way too tie this story up!".

And yet Liara's quest for the weapon is hinted in Shadow Broker DLC.

And could it be Liara knows what is because, you know, she is a Prothean researcher? They explain the dilemmas of the Crucible and how they approach building it. Their faith in it is simply part of the story elements because they have no other options.

No, ME1 is contrived all the way through, they simply make up new plot elements on the spot. Tell me the Cipher wasn't contrived. Hell, it manages to be both a Deus Ex Machina and a Diabolus Ex Machina at the same time.

And how would the Protheans know? They never finished building the damn thing. It's inception then nobody knows what it does going way back too earlier cycles but they all know it's capable of unfathomable levels of destruction and it will make quick work of the Reapers... Just face it it's an eleborate plotdevice too tie up a story they hadn't had a clue on how too finish.

Stop arguing with txgoldrush. You cannot win.
His headcanon skills is light years ahead of us.
His headcanon skills are over 9000
He is the best **** ever. Bioware does nothing wrong according to him.
He owns stocks of Bioware.
His attitude hurts Bioware in ways he cannot imagine. Justifying everything is terrible.
He claims Da2 is way better than DAO. ask him. (i do love DA2 also but lets be honest DAO >>> DA2)

Modifié par ioannisdenton, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:04 .

[RiouHotaru]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, then where has he been hiding this army of his? How the hell did no-one notice its movements? Surely it must've been using mass relays at one point. It also steps in with little to no introduction.

It goes from Cerberus gathering some more supporters (and suffering a pretty significant financial and tactical loss at the end of Retribution) to BOOM, they have a nation sized army.

Even with the loss of their agents and resources in Retribution, it's clear that by ME3 he no longer needs those resources, or, that their loss was of little consequence to him.  Also, notice that Cerberus never wages an overt war.  It's always surgical strikes and surprise attacks.  Even the Coup is uses the element of surprise.  Notice the C-Sec report detailing how frustrated Bailey and the officers are getting over the smuggling in of Hornet parts, from a source they cannot identify or locate.

Everything Cerberus did was done with the idea of striking hard and fast, in one swift stroke.

[Outsider edge]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Please....

The last encounter with TIM highlights the fact that he is a foil of Shepard...its all in the narrative.

Face it, Cerebrus was heinous in ME1, or did you forget this. Hell, they were conducting Reaper experiments in ME1!!!!! Like studying Husks by killing colonists....sounds like Sanctuary to me. And thats the Colony of the Dead mission in ME1.

The novels and comics also cast them as antagonists. Hell, TIM's actions in Retribution and what they did with Greyson isn't morally grey. Niether was Kai Leng. Hell, Leng murders Aria's daughter in cold blood.

Its you that are ignoring clear plot elements that disprove your case.

You're really missing the point.

The point is that Cerberus didn't need to be as big as they were in ME3, because it goes against the whole principle of their organization. That they needed to stick to the shadows and create diversions for their operations so that people wouldn't bring down the hammer on them. That they're vulnerable in the open. Their leader is even called by an adjective that suggests that they're relying on deceptions and secrets.

In ME3, that turns out to be completely wrong, since they can apparently pull fleets and armies out of their asses that rivals even the Alliance.

They're going all out so much that I don't think they need their secret funding from the company fronts anymore. Anyone could probably openly support them without any repercussions.

Sure, they got their money from rich people, but damn, does the whole thing feel contrived since apparently they have more money than the Earth's wealthiest nations combined.

If Cerberus had stuck to their original origin (an Alliance black ops team gone rogue), I think it for one would have been much more interesting to see how they handle problems beyond throwing a seemingly endless supply of mooks at them.

Did everyone forget that ME2 specifically stated they were focusing towards building up arms?  Ships/soldiers/guns?

So why in the world would TIM having a private army be a shock?  And they don't rival the Alliance.  The alliance NEVER brings it's full force to bear on Cerberus at any point.  As for the money, it's not the first time an eccentric but talented man has been worth tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars.  Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, etc, etc.  NOTHING about Cerberus breaks it's own character.  Even the transition from ME2 to 3 is incredibly consistent.

People just like to interpret the shift from mildly antagonistic to full antagonist as a step in the WRONG direction.  Which it's not.

Cerberus takes over Omega and has a full fleet circling it, they almost take over the Citadel, they can freely strike and (almost) take out an STG base on the salarian Homeworld (You know the race most famed for having the best intelligence etc.). Cerberus turns up everywhere on almost every major planet you visit and then some. It's just out of control ME3 makes it that Cerberus is almost on the level of entire races come military prowess. It's writer favouritism.

[Someone With Mass]

txgoldrush wrote...

And yet Liara's quest for the weapon is hinted in Shadow Broker DLC.

And could it be Liara knows what is because, you know, she is a Prothean researcher? They explain the dilemmas of the Crucible and how they approach building it. Their faith in it is simply part of the story elements because they have no other options.

No, ME1 is contrived all the way through, they simply make up new plot elements on the spot. Tell me the Cipher wasn't contrived. Hell, it manages to be both a Deus Ex Machina and a Diabolus Ex Machina at the same time.

You know, by your logic, pretty much any solution to a plot point is a Deus Ex Machina. Which is rather silly.

Shepard needed to find a way to make sense out of the weird visions in his head and he found one.

But I digress.