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[Someone With Mass]

Outsider edge wrote...

Cerberus takes over Omega and has a full fleet circling it, they almost take over the Citadel, they can freely strike and (almost) take out an STG base on the salarian Homeworld (You know the race most famed for having the best intelligence etc.). Cerberus turns up everywhere on almost every major planet you visit and then some. It's just out of control ME3 makes it that Cerberus is almost on the level of entire races come military prowess. It's writer favouritism.

Really this.

The way the scenes with the Cerberus strikes are told, they can outsmart any military by almost brute forcing their way in.

[RiouHotaru]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Cerberus takes over Omega and has a full fleet circling it, they almost take over the Citadel, they can freely strike and (almost) take out an STG base on the salarian Homeworld (You know the race most famed for having the best intelligence etc.). Cerberus turns up everywhere on almost every major planet you visit and then some. It's just out of control ME3 makes it that Cerberus is almost on the level of entire races come military prowess. It's writer favouritism.

Really this.

The way the scenes with the Cerberus strikes are told, they can outsmart any military by almost brute forcing their way in.

Actually, it's not a full fleet, but it is a sizeable one in Omega, but Invasion establishes this well in advance.  The Salarians are implied to have been betrayed from within, and the Citadel I explained in my post.  Nothing so far contradicts Cerberus' abilities.

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, there's a difference between smuggling in small firearms (one would think that security would be able to notice rail gun parts and weapon-grade eezo cores more than anything) and being able to drop a fifteen foot tall battle mech onto the center of the Citadel as well as smuggle in full body armors, palm disruptors, turrets and swords.

I know C-Sec can't be everywhere at once, but come on. The airports we have today have tighter security than that.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:17 .

[Outsider edge]

Full fleet...sizable fleet.....who cares where did they get all those dreadnoughts? Or the dreadnoughts and fighters at the Academy, or the fighters and air support on the Salarian Howeworld or the dreadnought and air support on tuchanka etc etc. Also was it cleared up who allegedly betrayed the Salarians? Ofcourse not just a quick out too get Cerberus once again involved somewhere. Writer favouritism that's all.

[RiouHotaru]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, there's a difference between smuggling in small firearms (one would think that security would be able to notice rail gun parts and weapon-grade eezo cores more than anything) and being able to drop a fifteen foot tall battle mech onto the center of the Citadel as well smuggle in full body armors, palm disruptors, turrets and swords.

I know C-Sec can't be everywhere at once, but come on. The airports we have today have tighter security than that.

Remember, when Shepard arrives the Coup is already well underway.  And again, the C-Sec report states they WERE catching most of the Hornet parts, and confused as to where these parts were coming from and how they were getting onto the station.  Likely what happened is C-sec was prepared for an "invasion" from the exterior, when what really happened is Cerberus attacked from the interior.  They already had agents and men aboard the Citadel.

Likely the result of extensive planning and work.

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, then what about the Citadel fleet? How can they not notice anything when Cerberus just ups and leaves?

[RiouHotaru]

As far as how Cerberus gets off the station? I assume there are very few survivors, as the game doesn't actually state how many, or even IF any of the troops used in the Coup escape except for Kai Leng, who seems to have gotten away while the Coup was still taking place. The problem is we're given very little or zero timeframe for long how the coup actually lasted.

But I'm under the impression the only important person in the Coup, (Leng), was the only one to escape the aftermath.

[Islandrockzor]

The main problem with Cerberus will still be Kai Leng. He steals TIM's face time, and doesn't add anything useful. He doesn't feel like a nemesis to Shepard, he's just that annoying guy who turns up and thinks he is... Silly goggles, coat and sword does nothing to help him, I'd take a N7-armoured gun-wielding hitman over it any time. It'd signal efficiency, instead of narcissism. Go better with Cerberus' style.

[ioannisdenton]

Islandrockzor wrote...

The main problem with Cerberus will still be Kai Leng. He steals TIM's face time, and doesn't add anything useful. He doesn't feel like a nemesis to Shepard, he's just that annoying guy who turns up and thinks he is... Silly goggles, coat and sword does nothing to help him, I'd take a N7-armoured gun-wielding hitman over it any time. It'd signal efficiency, instead of narcissism. Go better with Cerberus' style.

but casey hudson thinks he was a badass in deception...

[guacamayus]

To tell you the truth I really don't care if they explained it on some comic or via twitter or whatever, information as important as this should be included ingame, at least a short version to get players up to speed.
There's so much wrong with cerberus I don't even know where to start, from their massive pool of endless troops to armors, mattocks, atlas, etc for each and every soldier... and don't get me started on the fact that if you kidnap a bunch of civilians, implant them, and give them armors the result it's pretty much what it seems; a huge but undisciplined force, which recieved no training at all. Unless this is the matrix, and people can learn stuff through implants I say Cerbrus should be pretty screwed, specially in open war which they seem to do constantly in ME3.

Modifié par guacamayus, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:54 .

[Islandrockzor]

Speaking of the word deception... The gun-wielding, armoured Kai should have joined the crew under guise of "Private Smith", before revealing himself a traitor. Would add personal involvement.

The blade-wielding space ninja however, I doubt could decieve anyone. His whole appearance screams obvious self-absorbed bad guy.

[someguy1231]

Completely agree with the OP. The portrayal of Cerberus in ME3 was one of my biggest complaints. I was hoping we'd have the option to make a truce with them, or at least not fight them so damn much. Seriously, if you factor in Omega, you probably fight Cerberus more often than the Reapers now in ME3. I honestly cringed and sighed everytime I was fighting Cerberus in my first playthrough because everything about it felt so wrong to me. Like others have said, Bioware just needed another enemy for the player to shoot at, so they turned Cerberus into two-dimensional stereotypical bad guys. And this from the same people who said a final boss would be "too video-gamey". <_<

Modifié par someguy1231, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[Raizo]

Islandrockzor wrote...

Speaking of the word deception... The gun-wielding, armoured Kai should have joined the crew under guise of "Private Smith", before revealing himself a traitor. Would add personal involvement.

The blade-wielding space ninja however, I doubt could decieve anyone. His whole appearance screams obvious self-absorbed bad guy.

I have always been very critical of Kai Leng's appearance ( because the whole entire get up looks daft ) but something you just said really got my attention and has got me thinking. I think one of the main reasons why his get up bothers me is that it screams I'm a douche bag, please hate me. It's too obvious that he is a badguy, he stood out for all the wrong reasons.

At least with TIM we had a more intersting villain ( at least in ME2 before he lost the plot completely in ME3 ), one who did not see himself as evil but thought that he was in the right. Shame about Cerebus ended up in ME3, they were more interesting in that morally grey area instead of being the main ( despite what Bioware says, we spent more time fighting Cerebus than fighting Reapers and Reaper forces and this does end up hurting ME3 in the end since not enough time is spent on the main bad guys of the Trilogy ) bad guys in ME3.

[EnvyTB075]

On the subject of Kai Leng, i just hate that hes a literal ninja in space. And people actually liked that enough that they wanted it in multiplayer.

The whole concept is possibly the most utterly moronic things about this game, the fact i'm meant to take this seriously, when all i can think is "What was the game designer on when he created these guys?"

[DeathScepter]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

On the subject of Kai Leng, i just hate that hes a literal ninja in space. And people actually liked that enough that they wanted it in multiplayer.

The whole concept is possibly the most utterly moronic things about this game, the fact i'm meant to take this seriously, when all i can think is "What was the game designer on when he created these guys?"

Kai Leng is the archtype of the Highly visible Ninja. Well I don't mind it one bit. Keep in mind that we have biotics and FTL. and We had a Ronin in ME2 named Samara.

[Pantanplan]

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

why not?

Because they simply shouldn't have the manpower or equipment too do so. In ME1 and ME2 Cerberus are a shadowy group whose primary are research and espionage. In ME3 it's a full fledged army rivalling the Alliance/turians whatever. The timeline between the end of ME2 and ME3 is a mere six months in that time the Illusive man apparently acts as a Saruman on steroids and createshundreds of thousands of troops entire dreadnought fleets enough coordination too strike all over the galaxy, still has the resources too also have reliably intel on all the important bits so his goons can sweep in. It's just dumb. There was nothing wrong with having a faction that tried too hinder progress like what Javik said happened with the Prothians. But this is so far beyond hindering it's hilarious Cerberus are the main opposition in this game or at least it feels that way and there's simply no reason for that bar bad writing.

Please...

They siezed Omega, a huge store of eezo, and they are using Reaper tech to augment their forces. They got their money back.

Great now how did they abduct/ recruit enough personnel for their army pre war without anyone noticing? Where did they build the ships? How did they build the ships given how long construction on that scale takes? How did no-one notice? How did they train their personnel - especially their naval forces?

And they needed the army to seize Omega so that doesn't work as an explanation anyway....

and yet, really how big is their army and navy?

Because in fact, on Eden Prime they have to hide the fact that they have low numbers so th ecolonists don't overrun them.

Hell, the biggest reason Cerebrus is successful is because of their intellgence. They are at the right place at the right time. Thats how they came close to taking the Citadel and they got Omega by trickery.

When Aria describes the Cerberus occupation of Omega, she describes it as 'Deceit. Distraction and a big ****ing army… They lured me away from
Omega and ambushed me. I escaped, but Cerberus had already laid siege.
By the time I could launch an assault, they were too entrenched.' Even she describes Cerberus as having a big army.

[EnvyTB075]

DeathScepter wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

On the subject of Kai Leng, i just hate that hes a literal ninja in space. And people actually liked that enough that they wanted it in multiplayer.

The whole concept is possibly the most utterly moronic things about this game, the fact i'm meant to take this seriously, when all i can think is "What was the game designer on when he created these guys?"

Kai Leng is the archtype of the Highly visible Ninja. Well I don't mind it one bit. Keep in mind that we have biotics and FTL. and We had a Ronin in ME2 named Samara.

There is a point in sci-fi when sometimes enough is enough.

Space ninjas is that point in Mass Effect.

[ioannisdenton]

Maybe an expanation that Cerberus soldiers are just CLONES would be great....
But nooooooo!!!

[DeathScepter]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

On the subject of Kai Leng, i just hate that hes a literal ninja in space. And people actually liked that enough that they wanted it in multiplayer.

The whole concept is possibly the most utterly moronic things about this game, the fact i'm meant to take this seriously, when all i can think is "What was the game designer on when he created these guys?"

Kai Leng is the archtype of the Highly visible Ninja. Well I don't mind it one bit. Keep in mind that we have biotics and FTL. and We had a Ronin in ME2 named Samara.

There is a point in sci-fi when sometimes enough is enough.

Space ninjas is that point in Mass Effect.

Try explaining that to the Star Wars EU writers with OP Force users and Superweapons. Space Ninjas are lame compared to OPness of Force users of Star Wars.

[Han Shot First]

I think Bioware had the right idea in having TIM and Cerberus become the indoctrinated lackeys of the Reapers, but I don't think they executed it as well as they could have.

The mistake Bioware made was revealing Cerberus to be an enemy very early on in the game, and in giving them too large a role. There is a section in the middle of the game where you are going from mission to mission literally fighting nothing but Cerberus.

Instead TIM and Cerberus should have returned early on in a role as somewhat shady and untrustworthy 'allies,' similar to how they were portrayed in Mass Effect 2, except this time Shepard wouldn't be working for them directly. They should have appeared to have been working against the Reapers and with the Council forces in an uneasy alliance. Basically an 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' type scenario, from the Council point of view. Cerberus being indoctrinated should have come as a suprise,  broadsiding the player when they betray Shepard at Thessia and steal the Catalyst. Only then should it have been revealed that Cerberus was indoctrinated all along, and playing the long game to undermine the war effort by sabotaging the Crucible. The coup should have occured post-Thessia, basically a one-two punch where Cerberus finally makes its move and tries to both sabotage the Crucible and kill the Council.

[Vic-TIM of Circumstance]

TIM and Cerberus should never have been indoctrinated. Their whole purpose in the game is to give a face to the human-bully theme from the first game. Ambition is a useful tool to get what you want, but how far is too far?

Are we willing to sacrifice our morals, our ethics to "better" ourselves? Should we sacrifice what essentially makes us "Human" to reach perfection?

THIS is the purpose of Cerberus in the story. Granted, I think it was ridiculous that they had such large armies of troops, but the fact that they do does not diminish their purpose.

Cerberus was meant to be an Icarus story. Cerberus isn't about the organization or the people in it. Cerberus is an IDEA. They are the greed of Humanity personified. Cerberus is meant to portray the outcome of what would happen if Humanity continued its destructive path of greed and lust for power. They would seek to touch the sun, and in the end, fall.

[txgoldrush]

ioannisdenton wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

And that should be excused then? I'm not touting ME1 at all that game had it's share of problems but the total package and overall plot were fine.
Many defenders like you yourself constantly applaud the quality writing on display while that's simply not the case. Cerberus roll in ME3 is alot bigger then it should have been both thematically or in combination with the main plot. The cruscible itself could have worked eventhough it's somewhat contrived but i find it hard too believe everyone and their grandmother knows it can deal with the reapers even when they don't even have a clue how too build it. It's being put on a pedestal as the big sollution far too quickly. You could almost hear a sigh of relieve coming from the writer chambers at Bio HQ after u leave Mars: "We done it guys we found a way too tie this story up!".

And yet Liara's quest for the weapon is hinted in Shadow Broker DLC.

And could it be Liara knows what is because, you know, she is a Prothean researcher? They explain the dilemmas of the Crucible and how they approach building it. Their faith in it is simply part of the story elements because they have no other options.

No, ME1 is contrived all the way through, they simply make up new plot elements on the spot. Tell me the Cipher wasn't contrived. Hell, it manages to be both a Deus Ex Machina and a Diabolus Ex Machina at the same time.

And how would the Protheans know? They never finished building the damn thing. It's inception then nobody knows what it does going way back too earlier cycles but they all know it's capable of unfathomable levels of destruction and it will make quick work of the Reapers... Just face it it's an eleborate plotdevice too tie up a story they hadn't had a clue on how too finish.

Stop arguing with txgoldrush. You cannot win.
His headcanon skills is light years ahead of us.
His headcanon skills are over 9000
He is the best **** ever. Bioware does nothing wrong according to him.
He owns stocks of Bioware.
His attitude hurts Bioware in ways he cannot imagine. Justifying everything is terrible.
He claims Da2 is way better than DAO. ask him. (i do love DA2 also but lets be honest DAO >>> DA2)

Wow you are an idiot....

I have called DAO one of the most overrated RPGs this gen, completely bashed Jade Empire's morality system, thinks Neverwinter Nights is their worst game, and called Obsidian's KOTOR II better than the first Bioware made KOTOR. Nevermind I continuously bash Bioware's recycling of plots and characters...and even called Drew K overrated as a writer who cannot develop his characters properly.

I am far from a drone.

And it isn't headcanon...its simply all in the narrative you choose to ignore.

[txgoldrush]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

On the subject of Kai Leng, i just hate that hes a literal ninja in space. And people actually liked that enough that they wanted it in multiplayer.

The whole concept is possibly the most utterly moronic things about this game, the fact i'm meant to take this seriously, when all i can think is "What was the game designer on when he created these guys?"

And yet notice that the only ones with katanas are Vanguards and Infiltrators, ones that can get to close quarter combat without being shot, and yet they still use guns.

Nevermind the codex says their blades are made of mommolecular material....assumes it breaks shields and barriers.

[txgoldrush]

Pantanplan wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

paul165 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

why not?

Because they simply shouldn't have the manpower or equipment too do so. In ME1 and ME2 Cerberus are a shadowy group whose primary are research and espionage. In ME3 it's a full fledged army rivalling the Alliance/turians whatever. The timeline between the end of ME2 and ME3 is a mere six months in that time the Illusive man apparently acts as a Saruman on steroids and createshundreds of thousands of troops entire dreadnought fleets enough coordination too strike all over the galaxy, still has the resources too also have reliably intel on all the important bits so his goons can sweep in. It's just dumb. There was nothing wrong with having a faction that tried too hinder progress like what Javik said happened with the Prothians. But this is so far beyond hindering it's hilarious Cerberus are the main opposition in this game or at least it feels that way and there's simply no reason for that bar bad writing.

Please...

They siezed Omega, a huge store of eezo, and they are using Reaper tech to augment their forces. They got their money back.

Great now how did they abduct/ recruit enough personnel for their army pre war without anyone noticing? Where did they build the ships? How did they build the ships given how long construction on that scale takes? How did no-one notice? How did they train their personnel - especially their naval forces?

And they needed the army to seize Omega so that doesn't work as an explanation anyway....

and yet, really how big is their army and navy?

Because in fact, on Eden Prime they have to hide the fact that they have low numbers so th ecolonists don't overrun them.

Hell, the biggest reason Cerebrus is successful is because of their intellgence. They are at the right place at the right time. Thats how they came close to taking the Citadel and they got Omega by trickery.

When Aria describes the Cerberus occupation of Omega, she describes it as 'Deceit. Distraction and a big ****ing army… They lured me away from
Omega and ambushed me. I escaped, but Cerberus had already laid siege.
By the time I could launch an assault, they were too entrenched.' Even she describes Cerberus as having a big army.

and yet have you considered that that army is most or a major part of their force?

Omega is important to Cerberus.

And explain why the forces on Eden Prime are undermanned and attempting to fool the colonists to think their are more of them then they really are.

[Kataphrut94]

In defence of the game, they do try to give justification for Cerberus' increase in strength between ME2 & ME3. The troops and resources come from Reaper tech, it's implied that most of their attacks are surgical strikes and that their forces are generally smaller than they appear. It's suggested that the garrison on Eden Prime were hiding their numbers and once that was revealed, they got kicked off the colony quite easily. Shepard states in his interview with Allers after the Citadel attack that they basically exhausted their forces trying to take down the Council, though that doesn't really hold water if you do the Cerberus Scientists mission right afterward where it looks like someone kicked a hornets nest towards the end.

The reason for the increase in troops was explained by Sanctuary, but where they get all the ships, armour and equipment is never alluded to. Considering how expensive Project Lazarus and the Normandy SR2 would have been, it's clear they do have some pretty serious funding in their pocket. Presumably they could make back quite a lot of money from those projects; it's not unreasonable to suggest an organisation that created a procedure to cure the dead would be pretty loaded with investor money.

It's also possible that they got all their manufacturing technology by swiping what the Reapers leave behind, since the Reapers don't need fuel or factories. The Reapers harvest a colony, leave the resources behind for their helpful little minions to use, Cerberus swoops in and claims the goods like a bunch of white and gold vultures. The Illusive Man would justify this as pulling a fast one over his enemy, then go back to clutching at his temples and groaning.

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:05 .