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Why Indoctrinating Shepard Does Not Make Sense


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#1
JShepppp

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DISCLAIMER: This is my OPINION and is NOT fact. Also, this is not an anti-IT thread, and I hope we can avoid flaming.

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TL;DR: It is much more efficient for the Reapers to kill Shepard than indoctrinate him - thus trying to indoctrinate Shepard is pointless.

There has been a lot of discussion about Shepard being indoctrinated in ME3. Rather than look at whether or not this was the case, here I am going to look at WHY Shepard would be indoctrinated. Why would the Reapers go through all this effort to indoctrinate the avatar of organic resistance? Is it worth it?

My humble answer is no. And the rest of this post will be me explaining my thinking.

I. High Profile Indoctrination
II. Indoctrinating Shepard - The Benefits
III. Indoctrinating Shepard - The Costs

(Please note that while I refer to Shepard as male, that does not indicate any bias whatsoever.)

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I. High Profile Indoctrination

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Shepard is not your standard footsoldier - Shepard is a unique individual, possessing both a strong vitality (mental/physical) and the ability to realize that vitality through resources (political connections, fame, squadmates, etc.). This means that his indoctrination cannot be compared to Cerberus soldiers or that random dude that killed Dr. Bryson in the Leviathan DLC.

In other words, Shepard is a high profile individual. We know of two other high-profile individuals who were indoctrinated - Saren and The Illusive Man (TIM). Let's look briefly at their stories.

Saren: While I did not play ME1, the way I understand it, Saren was used by Sovereign since Sovvy needed an organic avatar to carry out the small scale actions. Saren, as a Spectre, was also in the unusually useful situation of being able to (initially) command resources while being given unquestioned secrecy and privacy. Saren also, as a Spectre, was knowledgable about a lot of the inner workings of the Council. Still, Saren was forced to operate on the fringes of society, and he required an "indoctrinated" army of Geth to be useful in combat. Once Saren was found out, and his actions affected the galaxy as a whole, people worked together to stop him. Saren also was lucky because the galaxy at the time was not suspicious; by ME3, people get suspicious of indoctrination easily and are much more aware.

TIM: Background information in the books apparently shows that TIM got indoctrinated by implanting himself with Reaper technology in order to better understand the Reapers. Though TIM always operated on the fringe of society with Cerberus, he continues to do so in ME3, and he relies on an indoctrinated army to support him. Everyone works against him anyways.

We can notice three commonalities in each of the above situations. Note that both Saren and TIM were powerful individuals, both as people and in terms of the resources and capabilities they commanded.

1. These individuals were forced to operate on the fringes of society.

2. These individuals required an indoctrinated-style army to support them.

3. Upon their indoctrinated actions, the galaxy worked against them.

Shepard, as even more of a high profile individual than Saren and TIM, is given less freedom to operate on the fringes. His squadmates won't follow him if he suddenly acts suspicious and hinders allied efforts. And despite whatever is going on in the galaxy, if they believe Shepard is indoctrinated, while they may or may not kill him, they definitely will separate him from the War Effort and make sure he cannot do any damage - even as a precautionary measure if they're not completely sure of Shepard's indoctrination. More on this in the next section.

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II. Indoctrinating Shepard - The Benefits

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Let's suppose, for a second, that the Reapers DID succeed in indoctrinating Shepard. What could Shepard accomplish? I'm going to look at a few possibilities and suggest why using an indoctrinated Shepard may not be as easy as it seems.

Here, I am operating under the assumption that Shepard is more difficult to indoctrinate than your average person. This is an assumption I developed from in-game observation, and while not exactly fact, it seems to be an accepted idea here on the forums.

1. The Reapers can use Shepard, physically, to hinder the War Effort.


This is the idea that Shepard, alone, can cause vast amounts of damage in terms of physical capability. I think we can split this up into four main parts - fighting, sabotage, espionage, and assassination.

FIGHTING: This is the idea that Shepard can pick up a gun and win ground fights. The problem with this is that Shepard, while an exemplary soldier, is not the Master Chief - there are no "hard" qualities that make Shepard stand out, and, most importantly, Shepard can just as easily be killed by explosives or aerial/orbital bombardment. The Reapers also are in no hurry to get more ground troops - they have a steady supply coming from their harvests. It's very likely, also, that Shepard will be killed by other exemplary soldiers (such as his squadmates) if he picks up a gun and shoots for the Reapers. By its nature, Shepard would be exposed by this action, making it a one-time thing. This idea does not make sense.

SABOTAGE: This is the idea that Shepard can take out high-value targets such as security networks, anti-air guns, fuel stations, etc. - key, strategic things that would hinder the War Effort. There are a few problems with this again. First, it would be much easier to get a person inside the facility, like a maintenance or other low worker, to become indoctrinated and do the deed. Second, doing this would expose Shepard's indoctrination immediately (for various reasons), so it would be a one-time deal. Third, the Reapers have other, more efficient methods for several of the high-value targets - orbital bombardment, hacking, blockades, and so forth - that they could use.

ESPIONAGE: This is the idea that the Reapers can know what Shepard knows physically in his brain, as information is power. The problem with this is that it would be easier for them to indoctrinate other people or hack computers to get that information.

ASSASSINATION: This is the idea that Shepard could take out high-value individuals, like Admiral Hackett, to hinder the War Effort. Again, this has a few problems. First, it would immediately expose Shepard, making it a one-time deal. Second, it would be much easier to indoctrinate someone else close to Hackett - like his assistant/aide/whatever - and get that person to do the deed.

2. The Reapers can use Shepard, politically, to hinder the War Effort.

This is the idea that Shepard's influence, rather than his soldiering capabilities, can be utilized against the War Effort. This has some immediate problems as well. First off, all the main missions in the single player campaign are Shepard doing things for other people, either on Hackett's orders or other politicians' orders. For Shepard to not carry out these missions as expected would be suspect, and given the state of the war and Shepard's known experiences, people may suspect him to be indoctrinated. To be better safe than sorry, they'd probably imprison him until they learned more, thereby decreasing his use.

There are two main ways, I think, the Reapers could use Shepard in this fashion.

OVERT POLITICAL ACTION: This would be obvious stuff, like Shepard suddenly getting up and giving a speech that the Reapers are everyone's "salvation through destruction" and saying things like "Harbinger is my bro". The problem is that such obvious things would not be accepted by the public (people aren't that gullible), and Shepard's squadmates and the militaries would immediately suspect his indoctrination, cutting him off from the War Effort.

COVERT POLITICAL ACTION: This would be stuff like sabotaging political discussions (e.g. talking s**t to politicians and upsetting them, delaying political compromises). There are two problems with this. First, as it is Shepard's job to deal with this, Hackett may just send along an ambassador and have this trained ambassador do the negotiating and have Shepard to the fighting. Second, if it is a really serious thing, Hackett, being smart, may suspect indoctrination and remove Shepard from the War Effort. Both of these reduce Shepard's influence and usefulness to the Reapers.

3. The Reapers can use Shepard to hinder the War Effort by lowering morale.


This is the idea that the loss of a hero demoralizes people. However, in terms of lowering morale, I think indoctrination and death would pretty much give the same loss of morale, that the mighty Shepard succumbed or fell to the Reapers. Given what is now known about indoctrination, nobody would blame Shepard, but they would be sad. I think here, though, death would be just as effective, given the costs.

4. The Reapers can use Shepard, biologically/scientifically, to improve themselves.

This is based off of ME2's Harby quote where he says to preserve Shepard if possible. Note the "if possible" though. While Shepard is unique, I don't think he's super unique as an individual - at least compared to some people the Reapers must have faced in a billion or so years - but he's just lucky. He's lucky to have a diverse galaxy, to have the Crucible fully planned (so the focus is only on building it), lucky to have the Protheans delay the signal...etc. His resistant attempts would make him a good study, sure, but this brings up the next part.

To the Reapers, harvesting someone keeps them alive, scientifically (this is supported by how Javik says DNA stores memories - the Reapers likely use this to learn about people and "keep them alive"). Thus, to the Reapers, harvesting Shepard would be the same as indoctrinating him in terms of scientific research, and it's much easier to harvest Shepard (overwhelm with physical force). On top of this, though, they can even learn a lot from his dead body through the DNA. And even then, the stuff they can learn may not be that big of a deal, as Shepard is just one anomaly. One out of a billion or so years apparently. To us, that might be the sign of being special, but to a machine, it's an anomaly, an outlier.

This makes some sense, but it should not be that big of a deal to waste so many resources on indoctrination. Harvesting or killing would be more efficient.

5. The Reapers, especially The Didact Harbinger, have a personal vendetta against Shepard and need to indoctrinate him because of that.

Again, this does not make sense. The personal vendetta is brought about by the reason above (4) whereby Shepard is more resistant - but not immune - to indoctrination. Machines are inherently about efficiency, and it would make more sense for Harby to realize Shepard is a threat, and seek to neutralize that threat in the most efficient way possible. There are also a bunch of other Reapers - and, of course, the Catalyst - who, without personal vendettas of any kind, should seek to eliminate Shepard.

One of the key things here is that, for the above situations, the other options available to the Reapers - harvesting or killing - are more efficient and can accomplish pretty much the same thing, combined with indoctrinating easier targets or using other methods to achieve Reaper goals.

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III. Indoctrinating Shepard - The Costs

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Benefits are only one side of the equation; costs are the other. There are three main problems indoctrination has versus killing - it takes longer, requires more resources, and give Shepard time to continue the war.

1. Indoctrination takes a long time.

Poor Harbinger has been trying to indoctrinate Shepard since ME2, and it's taking forever. Killing would be quick and decisive - if/when Reaper ground troops realize they're fighting against Shepard, the Reapers/Catalyst controlling the troops should be on the lookout and immediately fire lasers at the area until the ground is turned into glass. Quick and efficient. Given Shepard's resistance, indoctrination efforts take a long time, and the Reapers are better off indoctrinating others in a shorter amount of time to carry out their work.

2. Indoctrination takes more resources.

As a consequence of a long amount of time, indoctrination takes more resources for the Reapers, with little (or no) extra benefit. In addition to time, the Reapers must consequently keep Shepard in some form of Reaper contact, and it takes resources to do that (e.g. loss of Reaper troops that could be otherwise avoided).

3. Indoctrination allows Shepard to continue the War Effort longer than killing Shepard does.

Following from the first two reasons, this is a huge detriment. In addition (i.e. separate from) to just taking a long time and more resources, during this time, Shepard is hindering the Reapers in decisive, large-scale victories brought about through his political influence and soldiering abilities, combined with a large amount of just luck. Killing Shepard early on would stop his actions with little cost to the Reapers (use the massive Reaper lasers to do the job). Shepard is a fighter, and any extra moment he is alive has the potential for drastic reprecussions against the Reapers.

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Overall, to me, indoctrinating Shepard just doesn't make sense. Given Shepard's influence and spotlight, Shepard can't do much if he was indoctrinated without being discovered. It doesn't make sense that the Reapers would carry out a personal vendetta to such a degree that they would drastically reduce their efficiency. Killing Shepard solves the problem quicker and at a lower cost.

Again, I have to restate this - this is my OPINION and I am not saying it is right (i.e. fact). I just wanted to share. Indoctrinating Shepard just does not make sense for me from the Reapers' standpoint.

Modifié par JShepppp, 30 novembre 2012 - 07:52 .


#2
Applepie_Svk

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JShepppp wrote...

TL;DR: It is much more efficient for the Reapers to kill Shepard than indoctrinate him - thus trying to indoctrinate Shepard is pointless.[/b]


1. Indoctrination takes a long time.

2. Indoctrination takes more resources.

3. Indoctrination allows Shepard to continue the War Effort longer than killing Shepard does.


They were trying to kill him for 3 games... that should be enough to realize that something bad is going on ...

1. it could take hours, days, moths, years.... exact mechanism of indoctrinations is unkown

2. it already cost them more then it should for one soldier...

3. And also creating perfect chance to gain high-ranked agent in enemy lines which can lead allies to traps...

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Indoctrination of Shepard make ****ing perfect sense, you gain a powerful servant skilled in combat with infinite access to intel, as much deep covered and highly ranked agent in enemy lines, highly ranked so much that he could be responsibile for orders on battlefield or also know about special projects and other stuff...

Reapers so far don´t give a damm about costs, so why should they start now in the middle of war ?

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 30 novembre 2012 - 08:16 .


#3
Steelcan

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Well done OP, now just brace yourself for the horde of ITers that will come.

#4
demersel

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JSheppp - come to our thread - will discuss things. You seems to be open for a civil discussion.

This discussion is 100% IT related and should be proceeding in the main IT topic. 

Modifié par demersel, 30 novembre 2012 - 08:18 .


#5
OdanUrr

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demersel wrote...

JSheppp - come to our thread - will discuss things. You seems to be open for a civil discussion.

This discussion is 100% IT related and should be proceeding in the main IT topic. 


I can't believe what I'm reading here... 

Are you trying to hijack his thread?:huh:

#6
Guest_Finn the Jakey_*

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Devil's advocate here, but the Reapers have tried to kill Shepard countless times but to no avail, by Indoctrinating him they can do far more damage to the war effort, and they can just kill him afterwards.

#7
dreamgazer

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OdanUrr wrote...

demersel wrote...

JSheppp - come to our thread - will discuss things. You seems to be open for a civil discussion.

This discussion is 100% IT related and should be proceeding in the main IT topic. 


I can't believe what I'm reading here... 

Are you trying to hijack his thread?:huh:


Seems kinda like that.  Considering JShepppp's content is geared almost specifically away from IT folks, that's definitely a curious response.  

Maybe he just meant that he should visit the primary thread and discuss the post's point of view.  I dunno.

#8
dsl08002

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The vendetta with harbinger is actually possible because i was expecting a Line like this from harbinger:

(Harbinger)"You are nothing more than a bacteria shepard,! an insignificant pestelence about to be crushed"
(shepard) "You are relizing that your time is up, we beat sovereign we defeated the reaper on rannoch. Everytime we fight we learn how to defeat you.
(shepard) I swear this, we will defeat you and if we dont we will make sure that the next race will!"
(Harbinger) There will be no trace of you shepard, your civilazation will be annihilated along with all organics in this universe"!
(harbinger) And I will make sure that you alone will witness the extermination of your race, and you shall watch all of your allies burn!"

(Harbinger) AND WILL NEVER BE FREE FROM US!

Because harbinger want to inflict more pain on Shepard, then just kill him

Modifié par dsl08002, 30 novembre 2012 - 09:06 .


#9
Restrider

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The Reapers have two-fold strategy with varying priority over the course of the trilogy:
First they want to kill Shepard and if that does not work, let indoctrination manifest in his mind.
Through the course of ME2, the Reapers notice Shepard's value.
They still try to kill him, but Harbinger points out that Shepard's body should be preserved.
During Arrival, while having pissed the Reapers off again, the Reapers prioritize their indoctrination efforts.

#10
KingZayd

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Saren was difficult to stop even when the galaxy knew what he'd done. He was only stopped because Shepard could outfight him.

Shepard's crew are ridiculously loyal to him, and with the power of indoctrination helping him (remember Saren's crew) they would become even more so.

You say Shepard should be easy to kill, and yet the Reapers only managed to do it because he insisted on saving Joker. Even then they haven't managed to do it yet.

#11
Restrider

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dreamgazer wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

demersel wrote...

JSheppp - come to our thread - will discuss things. You seems to be open for a civil discussion.

This discussion is 100% IT related and should be proceeding in the main IT topic. 


I can't believe what I'm reading here... 

Are you trying to hijack his thread?:huh:


Seems kinda like that.  Considering JShepppp's content is geared almost specifically away from IT folks, that's definitely a curious response.  

Maybe he just meant that he should visit the primary thread and discuss the post's point of view.  I dunno.

The typical MO of the moderators is to lock down any topic related somehow to IT and pointing at the main thread.

#12
Dwailing

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Well, one theory is that each Reaper has some kind of central intelligence, one outstanding organic mind to direct the rest. That could be why they want Shepard. Think about Sovvy's comment about how each Reaper is a nation. Every nation needs a leader. That could be why they want to indoctrinate Shepard. Also, here's another reason. Shepard can't be killed. Seriously, they tried it once, and all it did was **** him off. So, if they can't kill him, that leaves only one alternative.

#13
Ranger Jack Walker

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This place needs a like button for the sole purpose of liking the OP's post.

#14
Bill Casey

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So why did they want to keep Shepard alive in Arrival?

Modifié par Bill Casey, 30 novembre 2012 - 09:50 .


#15
Andromidius

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Bill Casey wrote...

So why did they want to keep Shepard alive in Arrival?


Boom, headshot.

#16
Bill Casey

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Why does the Illusive Man not want Leng to kill Shepard?

#17
demersel

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Bill Casey wrote...

So why did they want to keep Shepard alive in Arrival?


Bacause Arrival sucks! It is when Mac Walters became the lead - all bad writing started from there. 

#18
demersel

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Bill Casey wrote...

Why does the Illusive Man not want Leng to kill Shepard?


Double kill!!!

#19
Leonardo the Magnificent

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This is very nice. It's rare to see someone discussing the stratagem behind indoctrinating Shepard, rather than the actual process. 9/10.

#20
acidic-ph0

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Harvesting the Galaxy takes a long time (centuries) even high-profile indoctrinated individuals routing out the last pockets of civilization. I think it would be in the reapers overall benefit to have an individual like Shephard in their pocket because he/she wouldn't have to do or say anything... just expose pockets of resistance and refugees to help speed the process up a bit. That would be the primary benefit to indoctrinating him/her and with the lowest chance of discovery. -Edit- This would also make sense considering Shepard could also lead the reapers to the Shadow Broker and all of her resources and information as well. 

In any case the reapers are timeless, they are infinitely patient so taking the time and effort to indoctrinate Shep doesn't really effect efficiency much at all.

As far as resources are concerned, the Reapers have pretty much unlimited resources in compared to the rest of the galaxy. I doubt that they would be concerned about that when wanting to indoctrinate Shepard either.

Also, you have to admit that the Reapers have wanted Shepard for quite some time ever since he proved to be an annoyance after killing Sovereign. If you played arrival it's made even more clear that they wanted Shepard as a thrall, because if they wanted to kill Shepard then the indoctrinated individuals at "The Project" could have easily offed Shep while he/she was unconscious. The monologues from object Rho, also seem to indicate that indoctrinating Shepard was what the Reapers wanted.

I dunno, it seems to me like the Reapers have a clear interest in taking Shepard alive if possible =/

At least that's just how I see it from what I got from the games.

Modifié par acidic-ph0, 30 novembre 2012 - 09:59 .


#21
Outsider edge

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Reapers still need a new "collector general" for when the harvest is finished. Who better then the Vanguard of the resistance?

That's how i saw a bad ending playing out tbh. A reaperized Shepard leading a contingent of husks beyond the omega 4 relay too carry out orders while the Reapers wait in dark space like the collectors.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:01 .


#22
acidic-ph0

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Outsider edge wrote...

Reapers still need a new "collector general" for when the harvest is finished. Who better then the Vanguard of the resistance?


Oh! I didn't think of that... That would make sense if whatever humans didn't make the cut to be "ascended" into Reaper form became the next series of collectors.

Modifié par acidic-ph0, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:01 .


#23
Mello

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I can't wait for the rest of the ITers to come by this thread.

#24
HellishFiend

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JShepppp is correct. Given what we see in ME3, it is the right conclusion. ITers should be considering what the deeper implications of that are, rather than why he is wrong.

Motive is everything, in this case.

#25
Bill Casey

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HellishFiend wrote...

JShepppp is correct. Given what we see in ME3, it is the right conclusion. ITers should be considering what the deeper implications of that are, rather than why he is wrong.

Motive is everything, in this case.


But he is wrong...
A well subverted political or military leader can bring down nations...
He's talking bull****...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:27 .