223 réponses à ce sujet

[Lookout1390]

Physical/logical evidence to show Shepard is immune to indoctrination: None what-so-ever

I was waiting for Bioware to explain how/why exactly Shepard and company were the only ones immune to indoctrination.

But I guess we can add plothole #24230 to the list

[JShepppp]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Smart people would ask Shepard to verify where he got the coordinates from, and his squadmates would ahve to back him up, along with EDI and Normandy sensor data. He cannot lie or he will be found out. It's not like they blindly follow him. 

[The Heretic of Time]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Like anyone would believe that. Like it even matters. They have a plan. The plan is to dock the crucible and use that thing to defeat the reapers. Making a complete u-turn halfway through the execution of that plan is just plain stupid. Hackett would be smart enough to realize that Shepard lost his mind and would probably tell Shepard to stick to the original plan. If Shepard would insit on attacking a random base (do the reapers even have a base?) than it would be obvious that Shepard is indoctrinated. He would be stripped of his position and taken into custody right away.

[archangel1996]

JShepppp wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Smart people would ask Shepard to verify where he got the coordinates from, and his squadmates would ahve to back him up, along with EDI and Normandy sensor data. He cannot lie or he will be found out. It's not like they blindly follow him. 

? he is something like the messiah, if their only chance of surviving the Reapers says jump they say how high
Soemthing like the BO2 campaign, you know

[The Heretic of Time]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Codex entry on Indoctrination:

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

That codex entry is from ME1 and stayed the same through the entire trilogy. 

The codex entry is true for the time when we weren't all working together to bring down the reapers in a frontal war. But as it is right now at the very end of ME3 it's completely useless to indoctrinate Shepard, as he no longer is a well-placed political or military leader.

Hackett is though. So it would make much more sense to indoctrinate Hackett. If they would indoctrinate him, than we would be royaly screwed.

Shepard is like the most important person in the galaxy. You're acting as if it wouldn't be useful to indoctrinate the most important person in the galaxy.

Shepard WAS the most important person in the galaxy. It was his job to unite the entire galaxy against the reapers. During the final mission, Shepard has fulfilled his job. He finished his part in this war. Now it's up to Hackett, our statigical military leader, to lead this united fleet to victory.

At this point, indoctrinating Shepard is indeed completely useless. Shepard doesn't pull the strings in this assault, Hackett does.

[archangel1996]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Codex entry on Indoctrination:

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

That codex entry is from ME1 and stayed the same through the entire trilogy. 

The codex entry is true for the time when we weren't all working together to bring down the reapers in a frontal war. But as it is right now at the very end of ME3 it's completely useless to indoctrinate Shepard, as he no longer is a well-placed political or military leader.

Hackett is though. So it would make much more sense to indoctrinate Hackett. If they would indoctrinate him, than we would be royaly screwed.

Shepard is like the most important person in the galaxy. You're acting as if it wouldn't be useful to indoctrinate the most important person in the galaxy.

Shepard WAS the most important person in the galaxy. It was his job to unite the entire galaxy against the reapers. During the final mission, Shepard has fulfilled his job. He finished his part in this war. Now it's up to Hackett, our statigical military leader, to lead this united fleet to victory.

At this point, indoctrinating Shepard is indeed completely useless. Shepard doesn't pull the strings in this assault, Hackett does.

Nope, Shep is the head, you can say all you want but Shep is the leader of the army, Hackett is just a man in the right position, do you think Wrex, or maybe Balak, or maybe the asari or the salarian gives a **** about Hackett?
Shepard is the reason they all are there, he is indoctrinted and everything falls

[The Heretic of Time]

archangel1996 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Smart people would ask Shepard to verify where he got the coordinates from, and his squadmates would ahve to back him up, along with EDI and Normandy sensor data. He cannot lie or he will be found out. It's not like they blindly follow him. 

? he is something like the messiah, if their only chance of surviving the Reapers says jump they say how high
Soemthing like the BO2 campaign, you know

No he isn't. And even if he was, do you think everyone in the galaxy is dumb enough to religiously follow Shepard without thinking things through? If Shepard would give a retarded command or suggestion, people will  question him and they will  turn against him.

If Shepard says 'X' but a superior officer or superior leader says 'Y', any normal person would ignore 'X' and follow 'Y'. Just look at Ashley/Kaidan and the Citadel coup.

And if Shepard would betray his allies, they will  find out and they will  turn against Shepard. Just look at Wrex after choosing to sabotage the genophage cure.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 03 décembre 2012 - 03:23 .

[dorktainian]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Like anyone would believe that. Like it even matters. They have a plan. The plan is to dock the crucible and use that thing to defeat the reapers. Making a complete u-turn halfway through the execution of that plan is just plain stupid. Hackett would be smart enough to realize that Shepard lost his mind and would probably tell Shepard to stick to the original plan. If Shepard would insit on attacking a random base (do the reapers even have a base?) than it would be obvious that Shepard is indoctrinated. He would be stripped of his position and taken into custody right away.

Don't you realise they're all indoctrinated.  Thats the point of the beam.  It is indoctrinating them all. everyone thinks shepard is doing the right thing.  they wont question him at all.  they're all reaper fodder now.  

[archangel1996]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Smart people would ask Shepard to verify where he got the coordinates from, and his squadmates would ahve to back him up, along with EDI and Normandy sensor data. He cannot lie or he will be found out. It's not like they blindly follow him. 

? he is something like the messiah, if their only chance of surviving the Reapers says jump they say how high
Soemthing like the BO2 campaign, you know

No he isn't. And even if he was, do you think everyone in the galaxy is dumb enough to religiously follow Shepard without thinking things through? If Shepard would give a retarded command or suggestion, people will  question him and they will  turn against him.

If Shepard says 'X' but a superior officer or superior leader says 'Y', any normal person would ignore 'X' and follow 'Y'. Just look at Ashley/Kaidan and the Citadel coup.

And if Shepard would betray his allies, they will  find out and they will  turn against Shepard. Just look at Wrex after choosing to sabotage the genophage cure.

The reapers are not that stupid, i don't think thay would make Shepard say "ehy guys, why don't we go at Omega 4 Relay? without the Reper identification okay?"
There are so much(not stupid) uses for an indoctrinate Shep

[The Heretic of Time]

archangel1996 wrote...

Nope, Shep is the head, you can say all you want but Shep is the leader of the army, Hackett is just a man in the right position, do you think Wrex, or maybe Balak, or maybe the asari or the salarian gives a **** about Hackett?
Shepard is the reason they all are there, he is indoctrinted and everything falls

Have you even paid any attention during this entire game, any at all? Hackett is leading this war son. Shepard is merely doing what he does best; resolving conflicts and persuading the other nations to work together with the Alliance.

To set the final plan in motion, Shepard has to contact Hackett. Then Hackett comes over and takes over the control of the mission, quite literally. He moves Shepard aside and takes his position on the Normandy's commanding post and starts giving commands.

During the entire final mission we see and hear Hackett giving out the commands over the entire fleet in space. Shepard is send to the ground to assist Anderson, who leads the entire team on the ground in London.


Shepard is just a commander. Hackett and Anderson are admirals. Just because you think Shepard is "the messiah" (ROFLMAO! ) doesn't mean he shouldn't follow the proper military line of command. It's a fact that both Anderson and Hackett are superior officers and have a higher rank than Shepard. By law, Shepard should obey their commands. If they say "jump", Shepard says "how high".

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 03 décembre 2012 - 03:30 .

[archangel1996]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

Nope, Shep is the head, you can say all you want but Shep is the leader of the army, Hackett is just a man in the right position, do you think Wrex, or maybe Balak, or maybe the asari or the salarian gives a **** about Hackett?
Shepard is the reason they all are there, he is indoctrinted and everything falls

Have you even paid any attention during this entire game, any at all? Hackett is leading this war son. Shepard is merely doing what he does best; resolving conflicts and persuading the other nations to work together with the Alliance.

To set the final plan in motion, Shepard has to contact Hackett. Then Hackett comes over and takes over the control of the mission, quite literally. He moves Shepard aside and takes his position on the Normandy's commanding post and starts giving commands.

During the entire final mission we see and hear Hackett giving out the commands over the entire fleet in space. Shepard is send to the ground to assist Anderson, who leads the entire team on the ground in London.


Shepard is just a commander. Hackett and Anderson are admirals. Just because you think Shepard is "the messiah" (ROFLMAO! ) doesn't mean he shouldn't follow the proper military line of command. It's a fact that both Anderson and Hackett are superior officers and have a higher rank than Shepard. By law, Shepard should obey their commands. If they say "jump", Shepard says "how high".

I did hear...i don't know about you

[The Heretic of Time]

dorktainian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Like anyone would believe that. Like it even matters. They have a plan. The plan is to dock the crucible and use that thing to defeat the reapers. Making a complete u-turn halfway through the execution of that plan is just plain stupid. Hackett would be smart enough to realize that Shepard lost his mind and would probably tell Shepard to stick to the original plan. If Shepard would insit on attacking a random base (do the reapers even have a base?) than it would be obvious that Shepard is indoctrinated. He would be stripped of his position and taken into custody right away.

Don't you realise they're all indoctrinated.  Thats the point of the beam.  It is indoctrinating them all. everyone thinks shepard is doing the right thing.  they wont question him at all.  they're all reaper fodder now.  

What the hell are you talking about? Only a hand full of soldiers run towards that beam. In case you forgot, we still have an entire fleet in space kicking reaper ass under the command of admiral Hackett.

So even if your speculation (that the beam indoctrinates) is true, what you say still doesn't make any sense.

[The Heretic of Time]

archangel1996 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Smart people would ask Shepard to verify where he got the coordinates from, and his squadmates would ahve to back him up, along with EDI and Normandy sensor data. He cannot lie or he will be found out. It's not like they blindly follow him. 

? he is something like the messiah, if their only chance of surviving the Reapers says jump they say how high
Soemthing like the BO2 campaign, you know

No he isn't. And even if he was, do you think everyone in the galaxy is dumb enough to religiously follow Shepard without thinking things through? If Shepard would give a retarded command or suggestion, people will  question him and they will  turn against him.

If Shepard says 'X' but a superior officer or superior leader says 'Y', any normal person would ignore 'X' and follow 'Y'. Just look at Ashley/Kaidan and the Citadel coup.

And if Shepard would betray his allies, they will  find out and they will  turn against Shepard. Just look at Wrex after choosing to sabotage the genophage cure.

The reapers are not that stupid, i don't think thay would make Shepard say "ehy guys, why don't we go at Omega 4 Relay? without the Reper identification okay?"
There are so much(not stupid) uses for an indoctrinate Shep

If the reapers aren't stupid than they should realize indoctrinating Shepard after the final assault is a waste of time. Shepard is no longer in charge of the mission and no one would listen to him if Shepard would suggest or do anything that goes against Hacketts commands. So there is absolutely no use to indoctrinate Shepard now. They should have indoctrinated Shepard when he was still recruiting the other species for their plan. That would have been the perfect moment to indoctrinate him. But not during the final assault when the war is almost over and Shepard isn't even doing anything important anymore (except for assisting Anderson).

[macrocarl]

I think the OP has a valid interpretation. I do like the IT interpretation as well. Can't we love both?

[dorktainian]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Like anyone would believe that. Like it even matters. They have a plan. The plan is to dock the crucible and use that thing to defeat the reapers. Making a complete u-turn halfway through the execution of that plan is just plain stupid. Hackett would be smart enough to realize that Shepard lost his mind and would probably tell Shepard to stick to the original plan. If Shepard would insit on attacking a random base (do the reapers even have a base?) than it would be obvious that Shepard is indoctrinated. He would be stripped of his position and taken into custody right away.

Don't you realise they're all indoctrinated.  Thats the point of the beam.  It is indoctrinating them all. everyone thinks shepard is doing the right thing.  they wont question him at all.  they're all reaper fodder now.  

What the hell are you talking about? Only a hand full of soldiers run towards that beam. In case you forgot, we still have an entire fleet in space kicking reaper ass under the command of admiral Hackett.

So even if your speculation (that the beam indoctrinates) is true, what you say still doesn't make any sense.

ok heretic.... here goes.  

The crucible is a gigantic red herring to draw off resources.

you have the beam.. It is a transmitter.  It's not a transporter.  Thats a lie to get Shepard in the place Harbinger wants him for indoctrination.  A Reaper Transmitter.  It transmits a reaper signal to the citadel which then distributes it everywhere via the mass relay network.  The transmitter is indoctrinating everyone.

People from london are being drawn to the beam.  People are dropping everything they have after being  influenced by the beams 'power' over them.  They are indoctrinated.  Only shepard & Anderson + troops have assaulted the beam.  Many have made it there before - and been taken to processing centers or huskified.  

In the end not even Shepard makes it.  Thats not the point of it.  Harbinger doesnt kill shepard.  He doesnt need to.  he knocks him out so his indoctrination attempt can be more successful (in theory).  All shep needs to do is 'wake up'  If shep chooses the wrong option in his dream then the citadel will obliterate everything via the relay network.  The reapers then just go back to dark space.  If however he picks the right choice then the reapers are programmed to power down.  Shepard then wakes up.

[The Heretic of Time]

dorktainian wrote...

ok heretic.... here goes.  

The crucible is a gigantic red herring to draw off resources.

And what is your source on this? What reason do you have to believe this? I find this an incredibly far-fetched assumption. I mean the Crucible is already a stupid ass-pull plot-device as it is, but to say it's also a red herring... I don't think I can buy that.

you have the beam.. It is a transmitter.  It's not a transporter.  Thats a lie to get Shepard in the place Harbinger wants him for indoctrination.  A Reaper Transmitter.  It transmits a reaper signal to the citadel which then distributes it everywhere via the mass relay network.  The transmitter is indoctrinating everyone.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would there be a beam of light if it's just a transmission? Transmitting indoctrination through a energy beam? That doesn't make sense. Indoctrination is more similar to a radio frequency.

And why does the energy beam stop at the Citadel? Why doesn't it continu from the Citadel to the Charon relay, and from there through the rest of the galaxy (like in the actual ending sequence after activating the Crucible)?

And why does the energy beam connection between the Citadel and the beacon stop and disconnect as soon as the Citadel opens?

Besides, we need to open the Citadel in order to enable the Citadel to send out the Crucible energy beam. The Citadel can't be used to transmit energy when it's still closed. 

But then again, indoctrination is more like a radio frequency and not a beam of energy. So this doesn't make sense at all.

People from london are being drawn to the beam.  People are dropping everything they have after being  influenced by the beams 'power' over them.  They are indoctrinated.  Only shepard & Anderson + troops have assaulted the beam.  Many have made it there before - and been taken to processing centers or huskified.  

Huh? How do you know all this? Are you just making this up or is this actually said in the game? Can you point me out to your sources for this?

In the end not even Shepard makes it.  Thats not the point of it.  Harbinger doesnt kill shepard.  He doesnt need to.  he knocks him out so his indoctrination attempt can be more successful (in theory).  All shep needs to do is 'wake up'  If shep chooses the wrong option in his dream then the citadel will obliterate everything via the relay network.  The reapers then just go back to dark space.  If however he picks the right choice then the reapers are programmed to power down.  Shepard then wakes up.

That doesn't make any sense at all. How are the fate of the reapers and their technology linked to Shepards indoctrination? Why are the reapers programmed to power down if Shepard wakes up?

Isn't the beam supposed to constranly send out indoctrinationf frequencies according to you? How can Shepard defeat that? Maybe he can resist is, for a while, but it would only be a matter of time. Just look at Saren. He managed to resist indoctrination for as long as possible, but due to constant exposure to Sovereign he eventually fell victim to indoctrination like everyone else. How could Shepard ever beat that?



Sorry pall, but this is by far the most far-fatched, non-sensical and lore-defiant theory I've ever heard.

[Reth Shepherd]

A couple of things.

1: I personally feel you undervalue Shepard's potential for unintentional spying. Shepard may not be a general, councilor, or highly-placed aide, BUT Shepard has been used for some of the most critical missions in the Reaper War; the Crucible, getting the Krogan into the war, the Geth/Quarian conflict. Once the Reapers know about these missions, they can then sabotage them. Interestingly enough, we actually DO see signs of precisely this. Multiple times we see Cerberus show up and be the big evil dudes, and at no point do we find out HOW they knew where and when to be. Thessia is a particularly glaring example of this (Mary Leng shows up JUST before Shepard does), as is Sur'Kesh. While we can't conclusively prove this argument, it is interesting that Cerberus apparently learns about these vital missions at right about the same time Shepard does. Since TIM has been shown to be at the least influenced by the Reapers, it isn't impossible that the Reapers saw through Shepard's eyes, and then passed the information along to Cerberus to hide their own involvement. Why use Cerberus instead of their own troops? Well, Cerberus is already suspected to have spies in the Alliance ranks. If the Reapers can hide their own spy AND cause a witch hunt in the Alliance's ranks, then they've just weakened the Alliance without ANY cost to themselves.

2: The Crucible has been suspected by many to be a Reaper trap. If true, then the Reapers may want an indoctrinated Shepard for no more reason than to build and guard said trap; the shepherd to their project, if you will. Despite the many red flags around the Crucible's discovery and creation, at no point does Shepard EVER question the Crucible or suggest a backup plan. (Admittedly, no other character does EITHER, so this may well be an example of bad writing rather than supporting evidence.)

3: I ran across this thread the other day; the basic premise of which was that Harbinger wants to overthrow the Catalyst and is quietly using Shepard to do so. (It's a very intriguing read and I highly recommend it, even though I personally don't believe it was what Bioware was doing.) If true, then while the Catalyst or the Reapers as a whole may not want or need Shepard indoctrinated, Harbinger does. He can't act overtly against the Catalyst (possibly literally), but he CAN have an agent doing his dirty work. Point 2 as stated above still holds, but now it's Harbinger who orchestrated its appearance and creation, via Shepard as an unwitting avatar. (Note also that even if Destroy is chosen, if Harbinger had a tentacle in its creation he might have taken precautions, such as shielding or a safe hiding spot, to ensure it wouldn't destroy him as well.) Even more interesting, we see Control supported by indoctrinated agents in both this and the previous cycle, and given that Harbinger is implied to have been manipulating TIM, it might well be his bid for the throne. If indoctrinated or influenced Shepard chooses Control, then the Catalyst dies and is replaced by Shepard, leaving Harbinger as the power behind the throne. (Please note that this part of the hypothesis does have a hole, which is that if Harbinger was the one to leave the Crucible plans lying around, then one would think that he would have made Control the default choice.)

*salute*

[Reth Shepherd]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

*snipped for length*

I agree with most of your points, Hanar, however the bit about people being drawn to the beam and being processed does have some ingame basis. During Priority: Earth, you find a recording from a civilian who is planning suicide because of the beam's 'call' and how everyone who went to it came back different, not human. That said, Dortainian got a LOT more out of that recording than I remember being there.

[The Heretic of Time]

dorktainian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Shepard, if found out to be indoctrinated, would immediately lose his value to the Reapers as organics would completely isolate him and/or kill him

You mean after Shepard sends the entirety of the galactic fleets to their doom.

"Guys, I retrieved the coordinates to the secret Reaper base in dark space, just follow me through this relay!"

Like anyone would believe that. Like it even matters. They have a plan. The plan is to dock the crucible and use that thing to defeat the reapers. Making a complete u-turn halfway through the execution of that plan is just plain stupid. Hackett would be smart enough to realize that Shepard lost his mind and would probably tell Shepard to stick to the original plan. If Shepard would insit on attacking a random base (do the reapers even have a base?) than it would be obvious that Shepard is indoctrinated. He would be stripped of his position and taken into custody right away.

Don't you realise they're all indoctrinated.  Thats the point of the beam.  It is indoctrinating them all. everyone thinks shepard is doing the right thing.  they wont question him at all.  they're all reaper fodder now.  

Are you crazy? As soon as things don't work out for the ITers anymore you'll just throw in more and more random assumption to make things fit again, up to the point that you now no longer claim that just Shepard is being indoctrinated, but EVERYONE is, the whole galaxy is being indoctrinated simultaniously by the beacons teleport beam to the Citdel!

Yeah, that makes soooooo much sense.  Just face it, you're totally grasping at straws at this point.

[thehomeworld]

I thought the crucible was the reaper trap that would've been a great tool to lure all your enemies forces into one area then they learn it is a dud and you can wipe out at least 90 - 100% of the galaxies fighting force in one go then down the relays and obliterate all the worlds you want.

Indoctrinated shep would've just added to that plan.

IF shep being indoctrinated was actually kept in for the narritive even if they remved the dark energy plot ME2 - ME3 probably would've gone like this:

Shep dies

Using reaper tech and other things TIM knowingly brings shep back to be used as a reaper pawn if he so chooses he can later subvert them using his puppet shep hence he makes shep with 2 weaknesses one to hacking the other to emp just encase he's wrong in helping the reapers. TIM tells shep he/she is indeed themselves, whole, with a few upgrades, and that there is nothing else to see regarding themselves and the LP

Since shep has reaper parts they are indoctrinating the crew starting day one. EDI is helping in this because she too has reaper components.

We get the crew so loyal even to ren shep who hates all his alien "buddies"

If shep falls in love it doesn't matter he's a cylon field operative.

Shep is told he's destroying the collectors to save humanity but being that TIM works for the reapers he is actually getting rid of them to pave the way for humanity to take their place.

Arrival was never about stopping the reapers using that gate it was actually to capture shep sync and program his reaper components to be inline with the reapers plans for ME3. The gate blowing up was to stop victims from fleeing into uncharted space and to get the humans distracted with the batarians. Shep is shown his first weakness.

Overlord was TIMs project to get rid of evidence he was learning how to control the reapers because David went crazy he must be stopped. Shep is shown his second weakness.

SB because Liara worked with Cerberus to free shep and the other SB was causing problems that didn't work with the reapers she is given the location to be placed in as the new SB she will after all do anything so long as it helps shep.

Lev wasn't planned per say but the reapers don't think this really hurts the war effort either, but it proves to TIM shep can be over written if need be.

ME3

The bataians to distracted by the Arrival incident are the first hit, next comes earth equally as distracted. Shep is allowed to leave to complete the reaper agenda to bring their enemies back to them.

Liara looses her base because she's played her part in helping shep from a far. She suppose to go to Mars.

Liara is given the lead on the crucible and of course she gives it to their agent who then gives it to their second agent Hackett who then convinces those not on the reaper side to take up this crazy plan. The Asari councilor may've had an idea the crucible would be a dud and so backed out she was unplanned for but also unnecessary once all forces are destroyed the Asari can't stand alone.

A few reapers are sacrificed in order to secure the fact that their victims will all show up.

In this scenario of IT the crucible turns out to be a dud. Hackett knew it would be but tells shep he's shocked shep still thinking he's not a cylon decides to go along with the plan anyway they maybe able to still salvage some type of victory.

TIM figures out that the reapers are just going to make slaves of humanity and decides that's not acceptable he shows up in the citadel and hacks shep. Anderson if he shows is killed by shep only not by TIM. Shep is under TIMs control but he is quickly loosing his due to the tech in his own body he doesn't have the will power shep does.

Shep and TIM go to the control center the crucible is hooked up he explains he knows what was missing due to his connection with the reapers TIM gets shep to fix the broken link then Tim is ready to force shep to control the reapers but he becomes a thrall before he can do that shep breaks himself out of the hacking due to his upgraded software provided by Legion when he died. Shep kills TIM and destroys the reapers.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 04 décembre 2012 - 01:29 .

[Massa FX]

So being an uber soldier = immune to mind control/indoctrination? Even with prolonged exposure, because Shepard is SHEPARD, s/he is impervious to this type of influence?

Sounds totally reasonable. Not.

[OdanUrr]

Massa FX wrote...

So being an uber soldier = immune to mind control/indoctrination? Even with prolonged exposure, because Shepard is SHEPARD, s/he is impervious to this type of influence?

Sounds totally reasonable. Not.

He's the hero, as such he's impervious to all sorts of things that can potentially represent a problem for telling the story Bioware wants told.

Mass Effect was never the story of Shepard's indoctrination. It could've been, but it's simply not there.

[Reth Shepherd]

OdanUrr wrote...

Massa FX wrote...

So being an uber soldier = immune to mind control/indoctrination? Even with prolonged exposure, because Shepard is SHEPARD, s/he is impervious to this type of influence?

Sounds totally reasonable. Not.

He's the hero, as such he's impervious to all sorts of things that can potentially represent a problem for telling the story Bioware wants told.

Mass Effect was never the story of Shepard's indoctrination. It could've been, but it's simply not there.

Can you give any evidence supporting your hypothesis?

[OdanUrr]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Can you give any evidence supporting your hypothesis?

I haven't made any hypothesis. Perhaps you're referring to my statement, "Mass Effect was never the story of Shepard's indoctrination"? Do I really need to prove this? If it were, wouldn't Bioware have told us so ingame at some point throughout the trilogy? 

In fact, we're told in at least three different occasions that Shepard's not indoctrinated: Vigil, Thessia-Vendetta, and Cronos-Vendetta. Yes, I've read the counter-argument suggesting Prothean VIs couldn't detect Prothean indoctrination, what could point out to Shepard being indoctrinated. But that's a very big leap and even then it's still a maybe, not a definitely. Have you considered that Prothean physiology is probably more advanced than human physiology, and that's why the VIs couldn't detect Prothean indoctrination as easily as human indoctrination? Or that these particular VIs were programmed to detect indoctrination after the Protheans learned what it was and how to detect it? Both VIs have detected indoctrinated agents before (Saren and TIM/Kai Leng), we've seen no instances where they've failed to detect an indoctrinated character. As such, there is actual evidence in support of the view that Shepard's not indoctrinated, whereas we can only speculate as to the contrary.

Do you propose then that the game's lying to us? I must admit it would be a Mass Effect first considering the past two games. We've had characters lying to us before, certainly, but a writer, as far as I know, only tries to deceive its audience if there's a plot twist coming down the line. I haven't seen such a reveal in ME3. Are we supposed to build a puzzle from the bits we pick and choose and declare those to be the writer trying to tell us something else than what is written? The evidence you've so kindly asked of me, in the form of ME1 and ME2, would suggest there's no need for such circuitous analysis.

If still you remain unconvinced, then I can only conclude you're hoping some reveal will come in the form of DLC. Unfortunately, with LotSB and Arrival, Bioware has made the case that they can and will release DLC that is important to the main story. After all, Liara would've never found the Crucible if she hadn't become the Shadow Broker and Shepard's pathetic excuse for being locked away on Earth at the beginning of ME3 would've been even more pathetic. In fact, like I've mentioned in another thread, Liara's search for the Crucible is independent of the games themselves and takes place in Homeworld #4.

On the other hand, three (four, if you consider the Extended Cut) pieces of DLC have so far been released for ME3 and none of them contain such a plot twist, namely Shepard being indoctrinated. What's more, each DLC is almost entirely self-contained (except From Ashes since it introduces a new companion) affecting little of the main story beyond your overall EMS rating. Furthermore, they've been released over a period of 9 months. Considering a game's life-cycle is astonishingly short (even if you factor in DLC that not everyone buys), if such a plot twist had ever been in the cards, odds are it would've been featured in a DLC closer to release date (this last part is not evidence, merely an inference of mine).

I hope my answer suffices, I tried to make it as succint as possible.

Cheers!

Modifié par OdanUrr, 05 décembre 2012 - 12:31 .