112 réponses à ce sujet

[Kepha]

Is it metagaming to think its a bad idea to be separated from your companions when there are people out to kill you?

[JosieJ]

Dude, how is it metagaming to thoroughly explore the area and talk to everyone possible before committing yourself to entering the building?

[Bear Pusher]

At least fighting 5 normal guards is easier than being forced into a 1 on 1 duel with a boss level warrior, like Lorne Starling in NWN2. That was f***ing hard for any support class, especially mages.

Modifié par Bear Pusher, 05 janvier 2010 - 06:30 .

[Zan Mura]

This whole metagaming angle here is a good textbook example of what's wrong with having strong opinions. You're so dead-set on believing your way is the only right way, that you forget the whole point in being a human: the ability to adapt.



It's not a black & white issue anyway. Obviously a game based completely on metagaming isn't good, but neither is the alternative where no previous knowledge and intuitive thinking outside of the game reality's constraints is encouraged at all. As said before, in *every* game, there are sometimes parts where you make a wrong choice, which then results in your death. Every time you load a game is essentially metagaming, breaking the reality of the game to fix something that should have left you dead permanently. Yet what would be the point of a game where you could never make the mistakes that force you to reload?

[KCat]

Zan Mura wrote...

There was a time when challenge was viewed as such. Now any *choice* that fails when it's made by a gimped character, with the wrong class and a poor player behind the wheels using all the wrong tactics - if any -, is deemed as "stupid design". The very same scaling you (the OP) blame here, is a direct result of the same attitude you show here by demanding that an encounter must be winnable no matter what the circumstances.

Not the OP, but I personally don't have any issues with getting my ass kicked. I just prefer to have warning such as increasingly difficult encounters or some such (reloading is not fun, especially when you don't have any other active quests to do). Funny enough, I found the following archer boss to be about as difficult as that 5-on-1, while the Blood Mage boss fight was noticeably easier (though still a little harrowing).

[Sarethus]

KCat wrote...

They're screening people who've come down with a plague which, if you inquiry, is closely linked with the darkspawn taint. And (surprise!) you're tainted. You don't feel sick because you've "mastered" the taint, but it's still the same thing, and not indicative that they mean ill-will. If anything, that makes them seem less guilty about trying to push me in as they're doing what they're supposed to.

Actually the fact that I have mastered the taint as you say and am perfectly healthy made me more suspicous that found anything wrong with me. 

But still there with full permission (from Loghain himself, but you don't know that). They may not be 100% trust-worthy, but not something to effectively murder them over.

First they are there by permission from Loghain, however as you said we don't know that but while them being from Teventir might not be suspicous enough to kill them for, it is enough for me to decide that I need to be extra careful, example sneaking in with my Rogue (for RP reasons) or striding in full of (over)confidence with my 2H Warrior while expecting a trap.   

That's.. exactly what quarantines are designed to do. Separate the sick from the non-sick, to best prevent the spread of the disease. You'd have had a better argument with how some of the people that go in don't appear to be sick, but that can still be attributed to some people not showing symptoms yet (as the mages say it can take longer to show up for some people).

One I got the impression that it had been substantially long time from the protesters, two if they are well enough not to show symptoms then they are well enough to give messages to those mages to give to their loved ones. 

Which of course means there's a 5-on-1 fight waiting on the other side with no option at all to avoid it. Once you talk to the mages, you're effectively locked in to either refuse to go in and kill them outside, or go in by yourself and fight a 5-on-1. Actually there may have been Intimdate/Persuade options once inside, but I don't remember (my char couldn't do it anyway).

Like I said my warrior strode in prepered for anything or at least thought he was. (health pots, poison, armour, and sword ready.) 

The more paranoid characters or those with homicidal tendencies would tend to refuse going in alone/opt fight the outside mages, while the thief-y or very mistrusting characters would go around back without ever approaching the mages. Characters that try to have a moral upstanding or not draw too much attention to themselves without due cause would tend to go in, without any idea of what to expect on the other side.

You forgot over-confident arrogant warriors striding in but meh but guess what being moralistic in Dragonage can have severe health consequences, that's not really new 

And honestly, even once I was inside and met the first group of prisoners, I wasn't totally convinced everyone they took in wasn't infected. To me it seemed like they caged up the clean ones for slavery and disposed of the actual sick. How would you feel if it turned out they were telling the truth, that they were actually immunizing some people, and "quarantining" (killing/disposing of) those truly sick with darkspawn taint? Your paranoia and killing the front door mages without cause could've condemned the entire alienage to death as the plague would then go unchecked.

Again I didn't kill the front door mages, I went in around the back with my rogue, went solo with my warrior. 

Actually speaking as a rogue, did you attempt combat stealth and taking a chance to lay some traps or throw some bombs? 

[KCat]

Zan Mura wrote...

It's not a black & white issue anyway. Obviously a game based completely on metagaming isn't good, but neither is the alternative where no previous knowledge and intuitive thinking outside of the game reality's constraints is encouraged at all. As said before, in *every* game, there are sometimes parts where you make a wrong choice, which then results in your death. Every time you load a game is essentially metagaming, breaking the reality of the game to fix something that should have left you dead permanently. Yet what would be the point of a game where you could never make the mistakes that force you to reload?

That's true to a point. Reloading a save and doing something different is a form of meta-gaming, but it's still different from making dialog choices based on what you( the player) knows will happen, or selecting skills that you'll know you'll need for the next sub-quest, vs. making choices based on what your character would do given what he knows. Eg, if your character makes a decision that leads to his death, you would reload prior to that decision and make a different one, but it can still be based on what your character would do.

To illustrate:
You complete Redcliffe, and have the choice between the Brecilian Forest and the Circle Tower next. As far as you're character's concerned, they're both equally good choices. You choose the forest, find it too difficult and die a lot, so you go back and choose the Tower instead. Yes it's technically meta-gaming because you'll know you'll die in the forest, and thus avoid it until you're stronger, but it still makes just as much sense for the character to go to the Tower first as it does the Forest.

Compare that to manually leveling Morrigan as a Spirit Healer because you want to recruit the Templars for the final Archdemon battle, which will cause Wynne to get killed. That's also meta-gaming, but on a completely different level that gives you a significant advantage. (NOTE: I'm not saying this isn't a valid way to play; just illustrating the extremity of meta-gaming)

[Lotion Soronarr]

WillieStyle wrote...

By that point in the game you really should be able to solo 5 non-elite mobs.

No. People who play party games solo should suffer. DIEEEEEE INFIDEL! Serves you right for not bringing anyone along.

[KCat]

Sarethus wrote...

Actually the fact that I have mastered the taint as you say and am perfectly healthy made me more suspicous that found anything wrong with me. 

The way I understood it, they detected the taint, not directly a person becoming sick because of the taint.

First they are there by permission from Loghain, however as you said we don't know that but while them being from Teventir might not be suspicous enough to kill them for, it is enough for me to decide that I need to be extra careful, example sneaking in with my Rogue (for RP reasons) or striding in full of (over)confidence with my 2H Warrior while expecting a trap.   

That's true, I guess it depends on how much mis-trust you have with Teventir. I (not a big lore buff)/my character didn't distrust them that badly, which was a fault of mine, I suppose.

One I got the impression that it had been substantially long time from the protesters, two if they are well enough not to show symptoms then they are well enough to give messages to those mages to give to their loved ones. 

Quarantines aren't time limited. Could be a few days, or several months. Until such time that they find a cure, or the quarantine becomes ineffective, there would continue to be no direct contact. Good point on no messages at all, though. It's been a while since I played that quest, but IIRC, there were people that did come back out after being verified clean, weren't there?

Like I said my warrior strode in prepered for anything or at least thought he was. (health pots, poison, armour, and sword ready.) 

My mage would've been able to handle it much better if just Alistair or Wynne could've also come in, too. But alas..

You forgot over-confident arrogant warriors striding in but meh but guess what being moralistic in Dragonage can have severe health consequences, that's not really new 

Heh. Touche..

Actually speaking as a rogue, did you attempt combat stealth and taking a chance to lay some traps or throw some bombs? 

I didn't have any poison or trap-related talents. My main ones were Herbalism, Survival, and Combat Training. My second play-through I'm on now is much more rogue-aligned (Dalish Elf Ranger, around level 10 or so, focusing on Survival, Coercion, Combat Training, and one point in poison).

[Mikka-chan]

It's funny: the first time I played, it didn't occur for me to try and bluff past the Mages. I went, prodded them repeatedly, then went back to Shanni who told me about the back route- so I happily went that way, as I had already annoyed the Mages a bit (actually, I think they were like 'go away now :*(' and no 'I'm sick!' options were available) and I didn't want to bring too much attention to myself- my character *was* a Dwarven Princess, after all, and already quite memorable.

Next time I played, I spotted the 'Cough cough I'm sick' option immediately. As my mage was supposedly from the Alienage (once upon a time), it made sense to follow that option. When they wouldn't let her companions come... then I got a bit worried, but I figured the Mageling would be all 'Hah, I am awesome! I need not them!'



...Didn't work too well. I consider myself okay at the game- I can get through nightmare, now at least- but for that fight, I ended up turning it back to easy. I could kill everyone in the room, but I couldn't manage to do it without killing myself on my AOE. Storm of the century = awesome, but less awesome when you're dead in the middle, too.

[Kepha]

I think the slavers are only interested in elves. They're very unconcerned about any possible illness you might have if you are not playing an elf.

[tmp7704]

This particular part does seem to be designed oddly or possibly messed up -- going into the hospice alone forces the player to fight against 5-6 guards. On the other hand if you enter it with the whole group there's only 3 guards inside. The rest mysteriously disappears in thin air.

Did make me wonder if these encounters weren't intended to happen the other way around since 3 guards vs your group is no contest whatsoever while 6 of them against just your character is quite harder than about anything else the game has you face (odds-wise)

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 janvier 2010 - 05:15 .

[bobsmyuncle]

LambChowder wrote...
Obviously this isn't something that would come easily to a Rogue, no matter what,

...

Instead I'm left with the prospect of winning a fight against a bunch of level scaling warriors that could chain stun me for ten years in a row if I had infinite health.

Are you a DW rogue or bow? Either way, you should have at least combat stealth. Rogues own. I love my mage, but combat stealth is amazing. By this late in the game your rogue should be a ninja with stun poisons galore and have no trouble slicing faces off.

If you built your rogue poorly, don't blame the devs. There are other ways to do this encounter, like sneaking in the back with your friends.

[tmp7704]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Are you a DW rogue or bow? Either way, you should have at least combat stealth. Rogues own. I love my mage, but combat stealth is amazing. By this late in the game your rogue should be a ninja with stun poisons galore and have no trouble slicing faces off.

Hint: by this late in the game so are the enemies. This particular encounter has multiple rogues able to stun and they carry weapons which cut very easily through the low armour before that stun wears off.

It makes very little sense to have this encounter be 1 v 6 if you go in there alone but just 4 vs 3 if you go in there with your whole group. The player isn't required to have any specific builds to get through the whole game, so to require them to have it in one otherwise trivial encounter like that and to put blame on them when they don't... it's pretty silly.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 janvier 2010 - 08:27 .

[Kepha]

I'm pretty sure I fought 5 guys when I went in there trhough the back door with my whole party.

[IronVanguard]

You can get in there without fighting the front door or bribing the back?



Go figure.

[tmp7704]

Kepha wrote...

I'm pretty sure I fought 5 guys when I went in there trhough the back door with my whole party.

Hmm could've been a glitch of some sort. I'm fairly sure it was less of them than what i had to face when going in alone, that's the one thing that made the whole experience stick in my mind as possibly not the best thought out.

Don't have the old saves from that game though so cannot check. Oh well.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 janvier 2010 - 10:55 .

[Creature 1]

Going in the front door never even crossed my mind.

[Addai]

My Rogue chick did this with not much difficulty using a Ranger summon. You might well be able to lay traps, too, since I believe it's only when you approach the boss that they turn on you. 

For my other characters, I knew they would have a tough time, so I went around the back door and bribed the elven guard.

But it was fun going in the front door.  I giggled over the line "You know, I am feeling a bit run down." 

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2010 - 11:01 .

[RangerSG]

Heh, the fight I hate in that section is the one where the dozen guards and the archer are lined up waiting for you. With the requisite cutscene that ensures your character is 2 feet from enemies who can cut him to ribbons immediately. And since I'm playing a squishy mage...



Scattershot-stun, scattershot-stun, backstab-backstab...mage is dead, Wynne is dead...ooops.



If there's one thing I would ban in game development it's the obligatory "drop you out of cutscene at the mercy of your enemies" gimmick. What, you can't talk from a safe distance and figure out what's going on? You have to get into the enemy's personal space so they can open you from neck to stomach before you can react? Ermm...why?

[RubiconA7]

Weird, what difficulty were you on?



I was a rogue and singled them on HC```

[tmp7704]

Think any talk about difficulty and attempts at comparison are rather meaningless, if for no other reason but the player having option to equip their characters with practically unlimited amount of health as long as they bother to make and carry enough pots

[Bullets McDeath]

If your main character can't take out 5 dudes by that point in the game... it might be harsh, but you probably suck. Rogue, mage, warrior... doesn't matter. The guys in the hospice are punks.

[tmp7704]

outlaworacle wrote...

If your main character can't take out 5 dudes by that point in the game... it might be harsh, but you probably suck. Rogue, mage, warrior... doesn't matter. The guys in the hospice are punks.

That fight happens around l.15-16 if i remember right. At that point a character has 200 health or so. Depending on the equipment (going by the posted screenshot) the enemies hit for 15-30 per hit. This means it only takes each of them to hit the player's character twice if that to effectively kill him with combined damage. It definitely takes more than two hits for the player to actually kill any of them.

To say someone "probably sucks" if they run into trouble with that when (again going with the screenshot which shows just one available heal pot) seems stupid rather than harsh. At the end of day the combat in this game is mostly about the numbers -- either you can outheal the incoming damage or you can't, this particular factor is hardly dependant on the player's skill.

[Bullets McDeath]

tmp7704 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

If your main character can't take out 5 dudes by that point in the game... it might be harsh, but you probably suck. Rogue, mage, warrior... doesn't matter. The guys in the hospice are punks.

That fight happens around l.15-16 if i remember right. At that point a character has 200 health or so. Depending on the equipment (going by the posted screenshot) the enemies hit for 15-30 per hit. This means it only takes each of them to hit the player's character twice if that to effectively kill him with combined damage. It definitely takes more than two hits for the player to actually kill any of them.

To say someone "probably sucks" if they run into trouble with that when (again going with the screenshot which shows just one available heal pot) seems stupid rather than harsh. At the end of day the combat in this game is mostly about the numbers -- either you can outheal the incoming damage or you can't, this particular factor is hardly dependant on the player's skill.

It's only a healing numbers game IF YOU SUCK, tho. You shouldn't be getting hit twice each round if your defense doesn't blow, or be taking that much damage if you have a decent armor rating. And how many hitpoints do those guys have? 100? Maybe 150? At level 15 you should be two or three shotting them in a worst case scenario.... unless your attack rating blows and your damage is pitiful.... see where I'm going?

Modifié par outlaworacle, 06 janvier 2010 - 01:15 .