112 réponses à ce sujet

[I Valente I]

tmp7704 wrote...

 At the end of day the combat in this game is mostly about the numbers -- either you can outheal the incoming damage or you can't, this particular factor is hardly dependant on the player's skill.

I disagree entirely.

[Bullets McDeath]

That statement is partially true, but it is no way the MEAT of the combat.



And, if it is true... walking into a 5 against 1 encounter with no healing potions means.... YOU SUCK. I rest my case

[Addai]

Both the OP and outlaworacle are exaggerating IMO.



It is a moderately tough fight. Like anything, however, it requires tactics. I do think that the devs assume by that time in the game you are leveled and are well-stocked... I mean, who runs around with only one health poultice?? Almost every character should have some sort of AoE or stun capability that would make it possible to take on a gang by yourself.



Question: Has anyone tried running out the front door? I wonder if you could do that, which would engage the larger group, but you would have your followers. But I'm pretty sure the doors lock, no?

[RangerSG]

The doors are locked until you get the key. You don't get the key until after the fight.

[Kepha]

tmp7704 wrote...

Kepha wrote...

I'm pretty sure I fought 5 guys when I went in there trhough the back door with my whole party.

Hmm could've been a glitch of some sort. I'm fairly sure it was less of them than what i had to face when going in alone, that's the one thing that made the whole experience stick in my mind as possibly not the best thought out.

Don't have the old saves from that game though so cannot check. Oh well.

I double checked and you were right, there is only 3 if you go through the back.  I think that is because the two guards from out front come in with you when you get taken in the front because "you're sick."

On the other hand:

tmp7704 wrote...

That fight happens around l.15-16 if i remember right. At that point a
character has 200 health or so. Depending on the equipment (going by
the posted screenshot) the enemies hit for 15-30 per hit. This means it
only takes each of them to hit the player's character twice
if that to effectively kill him with combined damage. It definitely
takes more than two hits for the player to actually kill any of them.

15-16 seems awfully low level to me to be doing the Landsmeet quests.  If you're that low level maybe the answer is it isn't supposed to be winnable at that level, go do some side quests and come back.  Now admittedly I'm a completionist and always finish all available side quests before I head to the Landsmeet, but I've never started that chain of quests at a lower level then 20.

[tmp7704]

outlaworacle wrote...

It's only a healing numbers game IF YOU SUCK, tho. You shouldn't be getting hit twice each round if your defense doesn't blow, or be taking that much damage if you have a decent armor rating.

I spoke of getting hit twice *total*, not per round. And for what's worth, even a l.10 white enemy doesn't have real issues with hitting target with over 100 defense rating, a l.15 enemy has even less problems -- keep on mind there is reduction of chance to hit based on difference between your ratings but it's linear. Even having say, 50 poitns more defense than the enemy has attack still means they're going to hit you on average every second time. On top of that it only takes one stun to ensure you will be hit and your defense counts for nothing, and each of these enemies do stun. "Decent armour rating" is pretty meaningless when the guy is wearing leather that doesn't leave much to work with -- difference between 'the best' and average is something like 5 points per hit if that? And we aren't changing tune now and claiming the player should have nothing but the best gear to stand a chance against 5 "punk" enemies, are we

And how many hitpoints do those guys have? 100? Maybe 150? At level 15 you should be two or three shotting them in a worst case scenario.... unless your attack rating blows and your damage is pitiful.... see where I'm going?

Hitpoints? No, no 150. Try 300+ (that's for l.14 enemy, l.15+ will have more obviously) Yes, it means roughly 50% more than your own character, each. You are not 2-3 shotting that even in the best case scenario, not unless you do 100 damage per hit.

I believe i see where you're going, yes. You're going on an ego-stroking trip while having very little idea about the subject you speak of, aren't you?

[tmp7704]

Kepha wrote...

I double checked and you were right, there is only 3 if you go through the back.  I think that is because the two guards from out front come in with you when you get taken in the front because "you're sick."

Oh, the escort thing does make sense at least as far as the story/explanation is concerned. I suppose someone didn't think too much about how it could affect the difficulty, or they weren't bothered by it.

15-16 seems awfully low level to me to be doing the Landsmeet quests.  If you're that low level maybe the answer is it isn't supposed to be winnable at that level, go do some side quests and come back.

I don't know really; was going by my own experience here, and my character was at l.17 by the time she hit the Landsmeet room. So i presumed 1-2 levels earlier for the Hospice part would be a reasonable guess.

It didn't really feel early to me, i went through the whole game just didn't bother with the chantry board quests but did most of the other things. From casual profile browsing it'd appear quite a few people complete the game around l.19-20 so it's not exactly an aberration. Given this, such kind of random roadblock (you can do this quest other ways easily but *this* particular way you better grind some levels) doesn't seem to be intended and if it actually is then i'd have to side with the author of OP, that it is pretty weak design decision. If nothing else they could just repeat the Arl of Denerim estate approach and allow rest of your party bust in and save you if you get defeated and don't come out on your own)

[Stengahpolis]

KCat wrote...

Again, that is why you can go around to the back door, bribe or kill the single guard there, and enter with your whole party through the back.

Why would you think to do that without meta-gaming? Having to meta-game to survive is indicative of poor design in an RPG.

How is 'I wonder if there's a back entrance?' meta-gaming?  Besides, after talking with a few people in the alienage anyone with half a brain should realize that the 'quarantine' seems a bit fishy.

For the record on both my playthroughs the mages told me to shove off when I asked them about the hospice; I didn't even know it was possible to go in the front.

[Bullets McDeath]

tmp7704 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

It's only a healing numbers game IF YOU SUCK, tho. You shouldn't be getting hit twice each round if your defense doesn't blow, or be taking that much damage if you have a decent armor rating.

I spoke of getting hit twice *total*, not per round. And for what's worth, even a l.10 white enemy doesn't have real issues with hitting target with over 100 defense rating, a l.15 enemy has even less problems -- keep on mind there is reduction of chance to hit based on difference between your ratings but it's linear. Even having say, 50 poitns more defense than the enemy has attack still means they're going to hit you on average every second time. On top of that it only takes one stun to ensure you will be hit and your defense counts for nothing, and each of these enemies do stun. "Decent armour rating" is pretty meaningless when the guy is wearing leather that doesn't leave much to work with -- difference between 'the best' and average is something like 5 points per hit if that? And we aren't changing tune now and claiming the player should have nothing but the best gear to stand a chance against 5 "punk" enemies, are we

And how many hitpoints do those guys have? 100? Maybe 150? At level 15 you should be two or three shotting them in a worst case scenario.... unless your attack rating blows and your damage is pitiful.... see where I'm going?

Hitpoints? No, no 150. Try 300+ (that's for l.14 enemy, l.15+ will have more obviously) Yes, it means roughly 50% more than your own character, each. You are not 2-3 shotting that even in the best case scenario, not unless you do 100 damage per hit.

I believe i see where you're going, yes. You're going on an ego-stroking trip while having very little idea about the subject you speak of, aren't you?

Technically, you're stroking my ego for me... you actually did hard number crunching and you still blow at this encounter which should be a total breeze. You can think I'm a dick all you want, you're the one who built a character that can't take out 5 little dudes by the end of the game. It's not bad game design, it's bad gaming.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 06 janvier 2010 - 04:23 .

[KCat]

Stengahpolis wrote...

How is 'I wonder if there's a back entrance?' meta-gaming?  Besides, after talking with a few people in the alienage anyone with half a brain should realize that the 'quarantine' seems a bit fishy.

I don't remember being told about a back entrance in my play-through, and I didn't go exploring every nook and cranny since the problem was in front of me. It's possible I just didn't ask the right questions or missed it when it was mentioned, but I didn't realize there was a back door until after the fight and I went through the door in the back to see it led me back outside.

And yes, the quarantine was fishy, but nothing to suggest a 5-on-1 fight where one of them is a stronger than a grunt (name colored yellow). The only other option once I talked to the mages was to goad them into attacking, and at that point there's no evidence they're doing anything particularly bad (or even not doing what they say; there are sick people that they take in, and they appear to immunize others). It's possible the elves were just over-reacting out of fear, too. And if you do attack them, some of the city elves join in against you.. which I'm sure would look real nice if it got brought up again.

For the record on both my playthroughs the mages told me to shove off when I asked them about the hospice; I didn't even know it was possible to go in the front.

Yes, it seems it's different depending on your race. If you're an elf, the mages try to force you in once you talk to them, otherwise they try to push you away.

[WillieStyle]

tmp7704 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

It's only a healing numbers game IF YOU SUCK, tho. You shouldn't be getting hit twice each round if your defense doesn't blow, or be taking that much damage if you have a decent armor rating.

I spoke of getting hit twice *total*, not per round. And for what's worth, even a l.10 white enemy doesn't have real issues with hitting target with over 100 defense rating, a l.15 enemy has even less problems -- keep on mind there is reduction of chance to hit based on difference between your ratings but it's linear. Even having say, 50 poitns more defense than the enemy has attack still means they're going to hit you on average every second time. On top of that it only takes one stun to ensure you will be hit and your defense counts for nothing, and each of these enemies do stun. "Decent armour rating" is pretty meaningless when the guy is wearing leather that doesn't leave much to work with -- difference between 'the best' and average is something like 5 points per hit if that? And we aren't changing tune now and claiming the player should have nothing but the best gear to stand a chance against 5 "punk" enemies, are we

And how many hitpoints do those guys have? 100? Maybe 150? At level 15 you should be two or three shotting them in a worst case scenario.... unless your attack rating blows and your damage is pitiful.... see where I'm going?

Hitpoints? No, no 150. Try 300+ (that's for l.14 enemy, l.15+ will have more obviously) Yes, it means roughly 50% more than your own character, each. You are not 2-3 shotting that even in the best case scenario, not unless you do 100 damage per hit.

I believe i see where you're going, yes. You're going on an ego-stroking trip while having very little idea about the subject you speak of, aren't you?

Where did you find the base attack and defense for mobs? That's pretty useful information for min/maxers.

Oh by the way, at lvl 15 my rogue was hitting for ~70 mainhand 50 offhand.  Dual weapon sweep + whirlwind would bring them all well below 50%.  Then riposte one, dirty fighting another.  Kill the last 3 at your liesure.  This is on nightmare.  Perhaps it's harder on easy.  I wouldn't know.

[Creature 1]

KCat wrote...
I don't remember being told about a back entrance in my play-through

Shianni tells you when you ask. 

I just tried to get in the front and they wouldn't let me until I said I was going through them, and then they attacked. I guess you have to be an elf, and then your character deserves to die for extreme credulity.

And if you do attack them, some of the city elves join in against you..

If you'll notice those elves have Walking Bomb cast upon them by the Tevinter mages. I think they must be using blood magic to "recruit" suicide bombers.

Modifié par Creature 1, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:09 .

[Archonsg]

To the OP, essentially you walked into a trap. It *is* the nature of traps to make sure that its victims gets neutralized, one way or another. However as most and myself have discovered, with skill and a little luck, sometimes you'd get away from these traps hopefully a little wiser. Reading some of the defeneses against attacking the Tevinter slavers outside, all assume that the PC *trusted* these strangers, to be what they say they are even after having your companions especially Wynne or Morrigan warn you that such magic is suspect.

I am sorry but helloooo?! I don't know what game you have been playing but if one thing dragonage has hammered at you from the start is that this is a world where if someone can take advantage of you and get away with it, they will. So if you chose to go into that Hospice alone either fully trusting that it is what it says it is, or because you are overconfident of your own abilities, you better be ready for whatever comes at you.

On my first playthrough I listened to the local (Shianni) and to my own companions and choose to see if I can find another way around into the hospice to find more about it, luck had it that the guard at the back wasn't much of a guard. My second playthrough I had my mage (AW) pretend he was sick, and well, as many people have already said of Arcane Warriors, he's the maker's wrath incarnate so what's a little fight with only 5 norms? (and before you ask, I was on nightmare mode) Subsequent playthroughs I just confront the mages out front by exposing the lie, since a grey warden can't be sick from darkspawn taint. Since they chose to attack me for gold, they can't be altruistic healers now can they?

You can't really trust anyone in the world of Dragonage, well, except for maybe Lelianna, but she's crazy so that's okay.

Modifié par Archonsg, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:44 .

[Bullets McDeath]

WillieStyle wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

It's only a healing numbers game IF YOU SUCK, tho. You shouldn't be getting hit twice each round if your defense doesn't blow, or be taking that much damage if you have a decent armor rating.

I spoke of getting hit twice *total*, not per round. And for what's worth, even a l.10 white enemy doesn't have real issues with hitting target with over 100 defense rating, a l.15 enemy has even less problems -- keep on mind there is reduction of chance to hit based on difference between your ratings but it's linear. Even having say, 50 poitns more defense than the enemy has attack still means they're going to hit you on average every second time. On top of that it only takes one stun to ensure you will be hit and your defense counts for nothing, and each of these enemies do stun. "Decent armour rating" is pretty meaningless when the guy is wearing leather that doesn't leave much to work with -- difference between 'the best' and average is something like 5 points per hit if that? And we aren't changing tune now and claiming the player should have nothing but the best gear to stand a chance against 5 "punk" enemies, are we

And how many hitpoints do those guys have? 100? Maybe 150? At level 15 you should be two or three shotting them in a worst case scenario.... unless your attack rating blows and your damage is pitiful.... see where I'm going?

Hitpoints? No, no 150. Try 300+ (that's for l.14 enemy, l.15+ will have more obviously) Yes, it means roughly 50% more than your own character, each. You are not 2-3 shotting that even in the best case scenario, not unless you do 100 damage per hit.

I believe i see where you're going, yes. You're going on an ego-stroking trip while having very little idea about the subject you speak of, aren't you?

Where did you find the base attack and defense for mobs? That's pretty useful information for min/maxers.

Oh by the way, at lvl 15 my rogue was hitting for ~70 mainhand 50 offhand.  Dual weapon sweep + whirlwind would bring them all well below 50%.  Then riposte one, dirty fighting another.  Kill the last 3 at your liesure.  This is on nightmare.  Perhaps it's harder on easy.  I wouldn't know.

[tmp7704]

WillieStyle wrote...

Where did you find the base attack and defense for mobs? That's pretty useful information for min/maxers.

I just enabled "show damage to party", put a character in front of a mob and watched if it had any problems hitting that character. You can tell the NPC level and grade when you have the Survival trained. For the exact attributes for all levels it would be probably possible by poking into the script responsible for scaling but i don't really feel like it.

Oh by the way, at lvl 15 my rogue was hitting for ~70 mainhand 50 offhand.  Dual weapon sweep + whirlwind would bring them all well below 50%.  Then riposte one, dirty fighting another.  Kill the last 3 at your liesure.  This is on nightmare.  Perhaps it's harder on easy.  I wouldn't know.

Out of curiosity that kind of damage is done with what weapons? From a quick check a regular tier 7 dagger hits the mobs of this sort for ~20 damage, 30 on crit. Imperial Edges (decent swords which you get after the Hospice) hit for ~30 regular damage. Similar quality axes (Bloodline, Biteback) land somewhere in the middle of that. DLC items like the Edge are slightly weaker tham Imperial Edges in performance. I can see getting some 10 extra damage there with stacking the grandmaster runes but that pretty much gets into the area of min-maxing and still gives no more than 40 damage, a pretty far cry from that 70 you report.

[Creature 1]

IIRC I was getting maybe around 60 at the low end raw physical damage in late game from backstabs, damage from runes on top of that. A rogue should be hitting a stunned target with coup de grace or backstabbing all the time. Add on the cunning damage bonus to backstabs from the assassin talent and it gets up there. Jack's max damage is listed as 85, I assume this is from a backstab with three damage runes.



Even without stuns rogues can do some damage. Flurry is three weapon hits, dual weapon sweep two weapon hits on typically 2-3 enemies.

[tmp7704]

I can imagine the damage getting higher if one funnels most of the points into cunning to get the most out of the Lethality talent, but then i wonder how the reduced attack score (and to a degree reduced defense) would affect overall performance. For example with low attack of 85 vs l.15 opponents or so i can see multiple misses vs rogue type opponents (admittedly this is with 2h weapon, i don't know if there's some hidden penalty to attack going on with these)

I was thinking strictly in terms of base hit damage there, if that reported 70 damage is supposed to be backstab/crit then yes i can see it happen since with some gear you can build the crit multiplier/damage pretty high and it won't take that much to get there. The catch would be, the backstab damage and such may be rather difficult to pull off in this particular situation

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 janvier 2010 - 04:56 .

[WillieStyle]

I don't remember what my cunning rogue looked like at lvl 15 but by level 20 I'm pretty sure I had over 80 cunning. Add in 40+ dexterity and you're looking at ~20 bonus damage per hit from stats alone. Then you consider +3 damage from rose's thorn and +3 damage from thorn of the dead gods. Then another 5+ damage from bard's song. This isn't even counting +10 damage from poisons or +10-15 damage from runes. Then you add bonus damage from tainted blade if you have Warden's keep.

And that's just regular attacks. When backstabbing, double the base weapon damage and the cunning/dex damage bonuses and add another 10-20 damage per hit from exploit weakness.

Finally, even though I funneled every bonus point into cunning after I had 26 dex (+4 from the fade), I had not trouble hitting mobs even when I wasn't flanking them.

Anyway, this has kind of devolved into a brag post. My initial point, is that if you build your character carefully, the hospice fight is easy solo. If you haven't built her carefully, we can still give you pointers to help make the fight more manageable.
Either way, this encounter is no reason to come to the forums and complain about "poor game design".

Modifié par WillieStyle, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:26 .

[WillieStyle]

tmp7704 wrote...
Out of curiosity that kind of damage is done with what weapons? From a quick check a regular tier 7 dagger hits the mobs of this sort for ~20 damage, 30 on crit. Imperial Edges (decent swords which you get after the Hospice) hit for ~30 regular damage. Similar quality axes (Bloodline, Biteback) land somewhere in the middle of that. DLC items like the Edge are slightly weaker tham Imperial Edges in performance. I can see getting some 10 extra damage there with stacking the grandmaster runes but that pretty much gets into the area of min-maxing and still gives no more than 40 damage, a pretty far cry from that 70 you report.

I just restarted another game as a cunning/dagger rogue (yes I am crazy).
At lvl  7 in lothering using the edge and the tier2 version of thorn of the dead gods, my rogue was hitting bandits for 15-19 damage per hit (non backstab).   I shudder to think what one would have to do to a rogue to get her to hit for only 20 damage per strike at lvl 15.

[tmp7704]

WillieStyle wrote...

Anyway, this has kind of devolved into a brag post. My initial point, is that if you build your character carefully, the hospice fight is easy solo. If you haven't built her carefully, we can still give you pointers to help make the fight more manageable.
Either way, this encounter is no reason to come to the forums and complain about "poor game design".

I think we'll just look differently at it, in the end. The way i see it, it is rather the case where the character needs to be built carefully for the fight to be actually manageable (rather than just 'easy')  After all what we're talking here is min-maxed stats, the best available equipment, stacked poisons, stacked runes, specialization buff and other funny stuff and all this just to show that yes, a character made this way can do enough damage to stand good chance to beat 5 mobs alone.

Given this difficulty spike is an extremely unusual occurence in the game and it comes totally out of the blue (the game never lures the player in this kind of difficulty trap with its dialogue choices so there's little reason to expect this is going to be one such case) i think calling it "poor design" is quite fair. It's hardly good design if nothing else -- and the game authors are clearly aware of it, seeing how in all other similar situations they do provide the player with ways to recover from the failure without resorting to the 'game over' screen. If in this particular case they did not bother for whathever reason i don't see why anyone would feel need to protest and deny the game fails to be at its usual standard when the attention is drawn to it.

[Sidney]

I did the fight straight up with a DW rogue and won w/ no deaths. It is entirely possible as those guards aren't near as bad as some for just that reason I suspect.

[RangerSG]

Feraele wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Heh, the fight I hate in that section is the one where the dozen guards and the archer are lined up waiting for you. With the requisite cutscene that ensures your character is 2 feet from enemies who can cut him to ribbons immediately. And since I'm playing a squishy mage...

Scattershot-stun, scattershot-stun, backstab-backstab...mage is dead, Wynne is dead...ooops.

If there's one thing I would ban in game development it's the obligatory "drop you out of cutscene at the mercy of your enemies" gimmick. What, you can't talk from a safe distance and figure out what's going on? You have to get into the enemy's personal space so they can open you from neck to stomach before you can react? Ermm...why?

Use aoes it gives you time to fight back...specially the knockback aoe, if you don't have it get it. Those are the glyphs btw..

I did use AoEs...the problem was once scattershot landed, I couldn't do anything more. Anyway, the third time through I got lucky and managed to land a fireball-grease-inferno before they could stand p long enough to start the scattershot sequence. The amazing thing was, the AI was smart the first two times. One archer would use it, then the second...you'd think the AI would've been set so that all of them used it right off.

[WillieStyle]

You don't need min/maxed stats to beat this fight. For fun, I'll do it naked next time I get to it.

[tmp7704]

WillieStyle wrote...

At lvl  7 in lothering using the edge and the tier2 version of thorn of the dead gods, my rogue was hitting bandits for 15-19 damage per hit (non backstab).   I shudder to think what one would have to do to a rogue to get her to hit for only 20 damage per strike at lvl 15.

The Edge has 6.0 base damage, +5 damage bonus and Thorn of the Dead Gods adds another 2 on top of that. So your character is hitting mobs without any armour on them to speak of for ~10 damage per hit at l.7. The ~20 damage i recorded 8 levels later was done with regular tier 7 dagger (6.40 base damage, no damage bonus whatsoever) and done to enemy with considerably more armour. I hardly see a reason to shudder here -- most of the damage increase you get from the stats beyond the extra 10 points of difference i recorded simply gets buffered by increase in the target's armour.

To answer your unasked question in more detail, apparently all it takes for rogue to hit "for only 20 damage per strike at l.15" is not to use the cheesy DLC gear and split their attribute points between dexterity and cunning at about 2:1 ratio rather than just drop it all into one of them (cunning mostly to open the extra dialogue options, locks and traps, dexterity for all benefits it provides) Who would've thought?