85 réponses à ce sujet

[mrbarnard]

I found *many* of his books after Enders game to be very solid. I enjoyed the Alvin Maker series as well as the Ender stuff. I completely disagree with his views but what the F do I care. I enjoy his books enough and he's entitled to his views. But to be honest, I don't think a whole lot about his views.

[Liquid Wolf]

Honestly I didn't really know much about his personal views till this post and some searching afterwards... But I find it really doesn't matter to me. He will be dead in a few years anyway, and I provide support for my personal beliefs.



If his abilities will lend themselves to make a great product, then I want them used.



Anything to win.

[Ethical Scabs]

Mummolus wrote...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure gay and lesbian activists didn't fight so that a ignorant bitter old jackhole like Orson Scott Card could blame for them for AIDS and write essays on how they need to be rounded up on an island with all the ni**ers and spics so he doesn't have to deal with their colored gayness.

No, they fought to end oppression based on personal beliefs and practices, which is exactly what you're now doing to OSC.

eh?

there's a big difference between systematic oppression and expressing your opinions through purchasing power.

You're a very good troll.  You have my esteem good sir.

[Bullets McDeath]

I don't know how you are typing these with a straight face, Mum. Who is oppressing Orson Scott Card? I disagree with his beliefs and refuse to support his career because the money he makes goes directly to support causes that are toxic to peace and understanding. On the flipside, his beliefs are ALL ABOUT oppression, he wants his beliefs inflicted upon everyone whether they like it or not.



Yes, it is his right to be as ignorant and racist and ****ing dumb as he likes. God bless America for that. But it's not "oppression" to boycott hatred and bigotry. If you seriously can't see that, I'm not even going to bother continuing this "debate".

[pathenry]

How many people in this thread are obese?

[Mummolus]

there's a big difference between systematic oppression and expressing your opinions through purchasing power.

Of course there is, but that's not what people in this thread have been advocating. Complaining that Bioware employs an anti-gay author is no different from complaining if Bioware employs a gay author. Surely you can see that?

You're a very good troll. You have my esteem good sir.

Now now, troll is an overused word. In this case I'm someone who happens to disagree and is capable of expressing why.

----------

Who is oppressing Orson Scott Card? I disagree with his beliefs and refuse to support his career because the money he makes goes directly to support causes that are toxic to peace and understanding.

I suspect OSC would argue that homosexuality is similarly toxic to peace and understanding.

On the flipside, his beliefs are ALL ABOUT oppression, he wants his beliefs inflicted upon everyone whether they like it or not.

...And complaining that Bioware is employing someone with his political stance is different how exactly? That is what this thread contains, after all. If an author doesn't support gay and lesbian rights, that author should be unemployed and destitute... Right?

[SheffSteel]

At the end of the day, you either believe equal rights should be extended to everyone or you don't. The two positions are not equal shades of grey in a frightfully complex morally relativistic universe, despite what the bigots would like you to believe.

Whether or not you think it's okay to boycott someone because of their beliefs is a different matter. That's a question of how you dispose of your disposable income, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So if you are happy buying OSC books - and comics - because of his position on gay rights, that's okay. Just don't kid yourself that his position on gay rights is okay by extension.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 05 janvier 2010 - 07:51 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Have fun defending scum. You're only making yourself look like an idiot. People have the right to believe whatever they want, but there are those of us who know what is up and then there's morons like you who would probably defend Hitler.

"Well, the Jews are rich and very elitist after all... that's what Hitler believed, anyway. You can't disagree with that or fighting Hitler was for nothing". 

I'm not wasting any more time on you.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 05 janvier 2010 - 07:48 .

[Ethical Scabs]

Mummolus wrote...

there's a big difference between systematic oppression and expressing your opinions through purchasing power.

Of course there is, but that's not what people in this thread have been advocating. Complaining that Bioware employs an anti-gay author is no different from complaining if Bioware employs a gay author. Surely you can see that?

I can indeed see that.  However, looking back over the thread, I don't see anyone stating he shouldn't be hired--just that they wouldn't buy it. There's a big difference there.

You're a very good troll. You have my esteem good sir.

Now now, troll is an overused word. In this case I'm someone who happens to disagree and is capable of expressing why.

I honestly thought you were attempting to troll.  You picked the perfect topic, have almost logically defensible ideas, and are being slightly inflammatory.  It's a good job,  and if it was not your intent this time, take note of what you did for when you want to later.  

[Merlik]

I'm sure there are people working at BioWare that share OSC's views ... seriously, so you may as well stop playing the game now and stop posting on these forums in protest.

Modifié par Merlik, 05 janvier 2010 - 07:51 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Orson Scott Card is truly one of the greatest writers that ever lived and personally I view him as THE greatest writer that ever lived. Having been a fan of his works for many, many years I am simply honored to be able to say I walked the earth at the same time as he. As for his personal opinions....I don't agree with him on everything but I certainly respect the fact that doesn't shy away from being 100% honest about everything and isn't afraid of public disapproval....how can anyone not respect and admire that? Then he takes real action to do all he can in order to make the world a better place.....I simply don't understand why so many people hate him.

[fantasypisces]

Well at least this thread is a lot more civil than the last one (i.e., it didn't get locked after about 10 posts).

[Bullets McDeath]

Well if I were 100% honest about everything and didn't worry about public dissaproval as Trenton respects so highly, I could quickly end the civility of this thread. But I won't. Some of you people... my God. If it were videogame players, or xbox owners, or Americans he was against, I doubt ya'll would feel the same. But since it's just homos, and deep down you hate them too, "it's alright".

Modifié par outlaworacle, 05 janvier 2010 - 07:54 .

[Obliterati]

Mummolus wrote...


...And complaining that Bioware is employing someone with his political stance is different how exactly? That is what this thread contains, after all. If an author doesn't support gay and lesbian rights, that author should be unemployed and destitute... Right?

That seems a bit straw-mannish.

OSC is perfectly within his rights to peddle his stories to anyone. And I am perfectly within my rights as a consumer to say "I will not spend one dime on anything that guy sells, ever".

And that's pretty much as far as it goes. That's the free market, isn't it?

[fantasypisces]

Tassiaw wrote...

Merlik wrote...

I'm sure there are people working at BioWare that share OSC's views ... seriously, so you may as well stop playing the game now and stop posting on these forums in protest.

I don't see random BioWare programmer #89 publishing what is effectively hate literature. If you find that somewhere, let me know, yeah?

Lol, so true.

[Mummolus]

Have fun defending scum. You're only making yourself look like an idiot. People have the right to believe whatever they want, but there are those of us who know what is up and then there's morons like you who would probably defend Hitler.

Godwin's Law always seems like a sad way for an argument to end, doesn't it? Then again, so does a series of ad hominem attacks with no basis in fact. A shame.

----------

I can indeed see that. However, looking back over the thread, I don't see anyone stating he shouldn't be hired--just that they wouldn't buy it. There's a big difference there.

Is there, though? These people are refusing to purchase something OSC was involved in it, thereby depriving OSC of revenue. Fair enough, but by posting such in this thread they're attempting to garner support for their position. The only logical outcome of their success would be the unemployment of OSC, at the very least. Too often people take action without considering the consequences if everyone were to take the same action.

I honestly thought you were attempting to troll. You picked the perfect topic, have almost logically defensible ideas, and are being slightly inflammatory. It's a good job, and if it was not your intent this time, take note of what you did for when you want to later.

After giving it further thought I may actually be trolling, in the strictest sense - I don't have strong feelings on the issue either way, and more than anything else I'm playing devil's advocate (an amusing term in and of itself, since it explicitly aligns me with the devil). Nevertheless, I'm certainly not (intentionally) doing so with the malice usually associated with forum trolls.

[Bullets McDeath]

"Yeah, I'm defending a hate monger, but I don't really care, so it's cool, bro. And it doesn't make a troll because I'm cooly detached while I do it LOL" Also, my ad hominem attacks have plenty of basis in fact. You are defending a man's right to advocate violence against homosexuals. Ergo, you're ****ing scum.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 05 janvier 2010 - 08:07 .

[Medhia Nox]

Having these views.. and vocalizing them outside of personal circles.. are two radically different things.



I have not read any of his works. I cannot comment on his literary accomplishments. I was also not aware of his opinions toward homosexuality.



As a gay man, I cannot support anything I know comes from a source that is in direct opposition to me. I do not seperate the work from the man. Talent means little to me if it comes from a source I cannot respect. I cannot say: "He was such a person, but at least he had talent."



Be that as it may, this is not solely designed by Mr. Card. I fully support all Bioware products. I believe this company to have a rare genius when it comes to creating computer RPGs. So long as they make RPGs, they will have my money. To my knowledge.. the company as a whole, and those like Mr. Gaider specifically, do not openly express any anti-gay sentiments.



Were I to consider buying this comic, I would do so to support Bioware. As someone else in this post said.. Mr. Card is just one voice of hate amidst a legion of such like minded people (on any level, not just this particular issue). His works of science fiction will be minor literary works probably for many decades, but I don't find it likely that they will succeed in meeting the requirements to be considered true classics. His time will pass like any other and he will be largely forgotten.



I'm no activist. I don't believe in activism. So I don't see much reason to condemn this product. He will likely not be able to spread his activism through the medium. So long as he is censored (whether by self-control or Bioware) I would have zero problem supporting Bioware by purchasing the comic.

[Mummolus]

A very talented hatemonger, at least, who doesn't run around calling his opponents "****ing scum".

I do wonder, outlaworacle - have you actually read any of the "hatemonger"s work? He doesn't advocate violence.

[Ethical Scabs]

Mummolus wrote...

Have fun defending scum. You're only making yourself look like an idiot. People have the right to believe whatever they want, but there are those of us who know what is up and then there's morons like you who would probably defend Hitler.

Godwin's Law always seems like a sad way for an argument to end, doesn't it? Then again, so does a series of ad hominem attacks with no basis in fact. A shame.

I win! I invoked Godwin's law earlier.  

I can indeed see that. However, looking back over the thread, I don't see anyone stating he shouldn't be hired--just that they wouldn't buy it. There's a big difference there.

Is there, though? These people are refusing to purchase something OSC was involved in it, thereby depriving OSC of revenue. Fair enough, but by posting such in this thread they're attempting to garner support for their position. The only logical outcome of their success would be the unemployment of OSC, at the very least. Too often people take action without considering the consequences if everyone were to take the same action.

Categorical imperative eh?  Nice.  The logical extension of this, though, is that everyone should buy everything from everyone, else they would be doing without.

A totally overblown and ridiculous comparison,  but one that may be enlightening:

Suppose I refuse to buy diamonds from De Beers due to the issues in Sierra Leone,  and all the death/child labor/ etc that causes.  Am I then doing evil by not supporting a --quite obviously evil--company?  In the short term you are in every way causing harm by not dispensing with your money; however, if you DO dispense with your money, you are effectively stating that what is done for the diamonds is okay.  

I honestly thought you were attempting to troll. You picked the perfect topic, have almost logically defensible ideas, and are being slightly inflammatory. It's a good job, and if it was not your intent this time, take note of what you did for when you want to later.

After giving it further thought I may actually be trolling, in the strictest sense - I don't have strong feelings on the issue either way, and more than anything else I'm playing devil's advocate (an amusing term in and of itself, since it explicitly aligns me with the devil). Nevertheless, I'm certainly not (intentionally) doing so with the malice usually associated with forum trolls.

S'all good brother.

[Bullets McDeath]

No, he calls his opponents f4ggots and nig*ers. Sorry to fall into your Godwin's Law trap again...but really, he doesn't advocate violence? Really? He wants them PEACEFULLY rounded up and removed from the rest of society where they can be happy, eh? I'm sure that's exactly what Hitler wants for the Jews. Peace and happiness.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 05 janvier 2010 - 08:11 .

[Ethical Scabs]

Mummolus wrote...

A very talented hatemonger, at least, who doesn't run around calling his opponents "****ing scum".
I do wonder, outlaworacle - have you actually read any of the "hatemonger"s work? He doesn't advocate violence.

well umm, actually....

Orson Scott Card wrote...

... marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn.

Slightly out of context,  but he really did advocate revolution.

[Bullets McDeath]

Oh yeah, I forgot armed revolution, too. You've picked a real class act to team up with, idiot. C'mon, play devil's advocate some more. I wanna see you spin this.