286 réponses à ce sujet

[lightswitch]

Mostly I'm just wondering whether 'leagues' or '100x' is a bigger margin...I'm really not sure. I feel like 'leagues' is a lot.

[eltdown]

Warning: thread title may contain hyperbole.

The Valiant II is still arguably better than the Viper X - despite only slightly higher damage per shot it has a higher rate of fire. Most low-tier units should be dead in three shots anyway and it will out-dps the Viper against the bigger enemies. The only real advantage the Viper has is that it's light so can be carried on cooldown-dependent classes.

Now the Valiant II vs Black Widow X... yes, the Black Widow has a load of advantages, especially if you land consistent headshots.

A lot of the promotional weapons are pretty niche, with the Valiant being no exception. If low recoil, fast-shooting sniper rifles don't float your boat then that's fine: go away and use the Black Widow instead.

Edit: just for Aedolon, doesn't affect the point I'm making though (see below).

Modifié par eltdown, 01 décembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[Deuces Apples]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Valiant II is worse than Black Widow X? Well, no sh**.

LMAO!! 

:O:O

[LemurFromTheId]

eltdown wrote...

The Valiant II is still marginally better than the Viper X - despite the lower damage per shot it has a higher rate of fire. Most low-tier units should be dead in three shots anyway and it will out-dps the Viper against the bigger enemies. The only real advantage the Viper has is that it's light so can be carried on non-Infiltrator classes.

What are you talking about? Valiant I has higher damage per shot (396.2) than Viper X (365.2).

[HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

to everyone saying "the valiant would have low recoil": you mean scope-raise, as in fact it has no auto-center function
(that makes the scope-crosshair go back to initial position after each shots recoil on (i guess even every of the other) semi-automatic sniper rifles - what means that it is the only sniper rifle with recoil in terms of a climbed muzzle before the next shot, just traded for less of kickback in general)

- i say that is 1 slight drawback on huge bosses when they are not very far away (as the scope has the very deep feeling standard ME3 siper rifles zoom instead of the lower scope zoom of indra, etc.)
but also 1 slight advantage on smaller and fast moving enemies (where you normally have to correct aim between shots anyway, so the less scope jump might come handy here).

but: 3 not really much damaging shots per clip + gold enemies shieldgates means extreme bonus-damage requirements for beeing able to bring down shielded mooks with bodyshots alone in one clip - so the viper and black widow suffer less from this issue.

but again: as the lower scope-raise on the valiant makes row-headshots easyer, i see this as the main point of preference here: better usability for 'always-going-for-headshoters' against higher damage per clip.

also: the reload time of viper and valiant appear to be the exact same to me - given that together with the 3/6 clip-sizes into credit plus slightly higher damage per shot and slightly higher ROF makes me guess that DPS under sustained fire use should be very much the same too when comparing a low level valiant with a rank 10 uncommon-drop viper.

and that is what makes me mainly agree in the with the OP here:
a for some players more preferred handling traded for higher weight is a lot to less difference between an uncommon-drop and a promotional-drop in my eyes too - so, after they buffed the viper to that heights now, i think they really should give the valiant its old edge over the viper in terms of damage back now
(as they recently buffed the black widow nicely further, it wouldn't harm in that direction anyway...).

[LemurFromTheId]

HELLHOUND_ROCKO wrote...

to everyone saying "the valiant would have low recoil": you mean scope-raise, as in fact it has no auto-center function
(that makes the scope-crosshair go back to initial position after each shots recoil on (i guess even every of the other) semi-automatic sniper rifles - what means that it is the only sniper rifle with recoil in terms of a climbed muzzle before the next shot, just traded for less of kickback in general)

- i say that is 1 slight drawback on huge bosses when they are not very far away (as the scope has the very deep feeling standard ME3 siper rifles zoom instead of the lower scope zoom of indra, etc.)
but also 1 slight advantage on smaller and fast moving enemies (where you normally have to correct aim between shots anyway, so the less scope jump might come handy here).

but: 3 not really much damaging shots per clip + gold enemies shieldgates means extreme bonus-damage requirements for beeing able to bring down shielded mooks with bodyshots alone in one clip - so the viper and black widow suffer less from this issue.

but again: as the lower scope-raise on the valiant makes row-headshots easyer, i see this as the main point of preference here: better usability for 'always-going-for-headshoters' against higher damage per clip.

also: the reload time of viper and valiant appear to be the exact same to me - given that together with the 3/6 clip-sizes into credit plus slightly higher damage per shot and slightly higher ROF makes me guess that DPS under sustained fire use should be very much the same too when comparing a low level valiant with a rank 10 uncommon-drop viper.

and that is what makes me mainly agree in the with the OP here:
a for some players more preferred handling traded for higher weight is a lot to less difference between an uncommon-drop and a promotional-drop in my eyes too - so, after they buffed the viper to that heights now, i think they really should give the valiant its old edge over the viper in terms of damage back now
(as they recently buffed the black widow nicely further, it wouldn't harm in that direction anyway...).

Given that...

- Valiant I deals 8.5% more damage per bullet than Viper X
- Valiant X deals 41.2% more damage per bullet than Viper X
- Viper empties its clip in about 4.2 seconds, Valiant fires those 6 shots in less than 4 seconds despite having to reload in between - without reload canceling (theoretically 3.3 seconds with perfect reload cancelling)
- Viper has average ROF of 66.1 with reload canceling, 59.3 without
- Valiant has average ROF of 85.7 with reload canceling, 65.9 without

...how do Viper's six shots give it an advantage over Valiant? People talk about "damage per clip" but Valiant empties two clips faster than Viper empties one. Valiant is simply faster and more powerful, there's no way around that.

[UKStory135]

eltdown wrote...

Warning: thread title may contain hyperbole.

The Valiant II is still arguably better than the Viper X - despite only slightly higher damage per shot it has a higher rate of fire. Most low-tier units should be dead in three shots anyway and it will out-dps the Viper against the bigger enemies. The only real advantage the Viper has is that it's light so can be carried on cooldown-dependent classes.

Now the Valiant II vs Black Widow X... yes, the Black Widow has a load of advantages, especially if you land consistent headshots.

A lot of the promotional weapons are pretty niche, with the Valiant being no exception. If low recoil, fast-shooting sniper rifles don't float your boat then that's fine: go away and use the Black Widow instead.

Edit: just for Aedolon, doesn't affect the point I'm making though (see below).

[Crimson Vanguard]

Go home Stardusk, you drunk

[UKStory135]

Aedolon wrote...

HELLHOUND_ROCKO wrote...

to everyone saying "the valiant would have low recoil": you mean scope-raise, as in fact it has no auto-center function
(that makes the scope-crosshair go back to initial position after each shots recoil on (i guess even every of the other) semi-automatic sniper rifles - what means that it is the only sniper rifle with recoil in terms of a climbed muzzle before the next shot, just traded for less of kickback in general)

- i say that is 1 slight drawback on huge bosses when they are not very far away (as the scope has the very deep feeling standard ME3 siper rifles zoom instead of the lower scope zoom of indra, etc.)
but also 1 slight advantage on smaller and fast moving enemies (where you normally have to correct aim between shots anyway, so the less scope jump might come handy here).

but: 3 not really much damaging shots per clip + gold enemies shieldgates means extreme bonus-damage requirements for beeing able to bring down shielded mooks with bodyshots alone in one clip - so the viper and black widow suffer less from this issue.

but again: as the lower scope-raise on the valiant makes row-headshots easyer, i see this as the main point of preference here: better usability for 'always-going-for-headshoters' against higher damage per clip.

also: the reload time of viper and valiant appear to be the exact same to me - given that together with the 3/6 clip-sizes into credit plus slightly higher damage per shot and slightly higher ROF makes me guess that DPS under sustained fire use should be very much the same too when comparing a low level valiant with a rank 10 uncommon-drop viper.

and that is what makes me mainly agree in the with the OP here:
a for some players more preferred handling traded for higher weight is a lot to less difference between an uncommon-drop and a promotional-drop in my eyes too - so, after they buffed the viper to that heights now, i think they really should give the valiant its old edge over the viper in terms of damage back now
(as they recently buffed the black widow nicely further, it wouldn't harm in that direction anyway...).

Given that...

- Valiant I deals 8.5% more damage per bullet than Viper X
- Valiant X deals 41.2% more damage per bullet than Viper X
- Viper empties its clip in about 4.2 seconds, Valiant fires those 6 shots in less than 4 seconds despite having to reload in between - without reload canceling (theoretically 3.3 seconds with perfect reload cancelling)
- Viper has average ROF of 66.1 with reload canceling, 59.3 without
- Valiant has average ROF of 85.7 with reload canceling, 65.9 without

...how do Viper's six shots give it an advantage over Valiant? People talk about "damage per clip" but Valiant empties two clips faster than Viper empties one. Valiant is simply faster and more powerful, there's no way around that.

That is the same argument people make when comparing they say the Paladin and Carnifex are superior to the Saber.  It is equally correct in both counts.

[DullahansXMark]

The Valiant needs to be at about III (I think?) to rival the damage of a Viper X. And then there's the issue of the Viper having six shots per clip.

Something's gotta give.

[Cundu_Ertur]

Stardusk wrote...

OmegaRex wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

OmegaRex wrote...

Viper X isn't even better than a Valiant I.

How is it leagues better than a II?

It's much better than the Valiant. It does almost as much damage and has 6 shots vs. 3.

Valiant shoots faster and doesn't have as much recoil, allowing faster headshots.

Viper has super fast recoil. 6 vs 3 shots. Viper> Valiant. The Valiant is very weak.

Since I don't have a Valiant at all, I just have to go by the numbers, and by the numbers a Valiant III is just a smidge better than a Viper X, but weighs more -- about what a Viper would weigh with the heavier heavy barrel. Viper X to Valiant X is no comparison, but Viper X to Valiant III looks like evaluating how much weight matters to you. Valiant IV on up, the damage ramps up enough to where you ought to just suck up the extra weight and go with it. Valiant X weighs what a Mantix X weighs. That's per-bullet damage, not counting ROF.

Viper is the Valiant for people that the RNG hates.

[ValorOfArms777]

this guns shine of power is through it's DPS ratio speed, it's fast, reloads fast, and so fast it gets all 3 shots from a cloak in that quick moment and then reloads that suddenly, it's liek the BW and the Viper had a child a really mean child...

mines at IV (Though personally IDC if it levels or not) and the Viper in itself is okay but it's nitch is fairly "strange" beign that it not a great Infiltrator gun but more so useful for soldier types

the valiant can fit on both roles as a Infiltrator gun it outmatches the "BW" even  for sheer speed, the Viper again is more like a lesser saber IMHO.

Modifié par ValorOfArms777, 01 décembre 2012 - 05:46 .

[capn233]

Just to reiterate, stat wise the Valiant I does more damage per shot and more DPS than the Viper X. This has been posted a couple of times in the thread, and isn't exactly open to interpretation.

But what is missing from the title and the OP that was later revealed was that the claims were from the perspective of a Turian Soldier. Valiant doesn't get much practical benefit from Marksman like the Viper does, or the Black Widow does.

Valiant is still a good option on infiltrators, and is a good weapon on Human Soldier. Or if for whatever reason you wanted to snipe and spam powers, it isn't so bad.

I don't know if it should get a buff. Before the shieldgate change people thought it was in the running for best SR because it was the fastest to 2 headshots. Now we have the ammo and lower gate to brute force single shots with some of them.

[andresft]

OK, guys, we need to start making a distinction between facts and opinions.

Fact: technically speaking, the Valiant is the best sniper rifle in the game. Period. It has the highest DPS (any opinions as to whether DPS is useful or not are just that, opinions) and it is much lighter than the other URs. On top of that, it has virtually no recoil (or scope raise or whatever you want to call it). In strict terms of numbers and data, the Valiant is not only NOT leagues behind, it's actually a league or two better.

Opinion: as a huge SR enthusiast, I think the Valiant is one of those things that excels technically but just doesn't feel that great in your hands. It's like a $20 Casio "atomic" watch vs. a 700-piece Patek Philippe with a tourbillon. It's just not a sniper's sniper rifle. It does feel weak and it isn't as much fun as the BW, let alone the Javelin.

If there is anything to be concluded from this thread, it's that both schools of thought (the Valiant is super good and the Valiant is super weak) have enough of a following that we can chalk it up to personal preferences.

[LemurFromTheId]

UKStory135 wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

Given that...

- Valiant I deals 8.5% more damage per bullet than Viper X
- Valiant X deals 41.2% more damage per bullet than Viper X
- Viper empties its clip in about 4.2 seconds, Valiant fires those 6 shots in less than 4 seconds despite having to reload in between - without reload canceling (theoretically 3.3 seconds with perfect reload cancelling)
- Viper has average ROF of 66.1 with reload canceling, 59.3 without
- Valiant has average ROF of 85.7 with reload canceling, 65.9 without

...how do Viper's six shots give it an advantage over Valiant? People talk about "damage per clip" but Valiant empties two clips faster than Viper empties one. Valiant is simply faster and more powerful, there's no way around that.

That is the same argument people make when comparing they say the Paladin and Carnifex are superior to the Saber. It is equally correct in both counts.

I haven't taken part in that discussion, but I can see why you would make that connection. Still, I think the situation there is very different - for example, Sabre and Paladin belong to different weapon categories, which means they have different mods, different gear, different class synergies, different alternate weapon choices etc.

[Lexa_D]

Stardusk, thanx for showing the Viper, I'll have a go to see what has become of it after buffs. From the numebrs alone, low-level Valiant is par with Viper X. However, Valiant leaves Viper in the dust for any heavily armored target, most prominent - possessed scions and praetorians. Check tyhw's killtimes list: http://social.biowar...ndex/15062679/1

Same list shows my Valiant X to be the best SR for SI in terms of both boss and mook killtime, and that's why people say it doesn't need a buff, megabeast37215.

[Tybo]

Lexa_D wrote...

Stardusk, thanx for showing the Viper, I'll have a go to see what has become of it after buffs. From the numebrs alone, low-level Valiant is par with Viper X. However, Valiant leaves Viper in the dust for any heavily armored target, most prominent - possessed scions and praetorians. Check tyhw's killtimes list: http://social.biowar...ndex/15062679/1

Same list shows my Valiant X to be the best SR for SI in terms of both boss and mook killtime, and that's why people say it doesn't need a buff, megabeast37215.

One of the issues with my kill times list is that, for infiltrators, it does not count cloak cycles.  It assumes cloak is always on.  In practice, for an infiltrator, you will probably get better kill times with a Black Widow because it fits into cloak cycles better.

That said, for any non-Infiltrator, the Valiant will probably get better kill times.  But all SRs on non-Infiltrators are poor for boss killing anyway...

[darkpassenger2342]

valiant is amazing.
use a headshot mod instead of sniper amp and use the new heavy mods, its really fun to use.

[capn233]

tyhw wrote...

One of the issues with my kill times list is that, for infiltrators, it does not count cloak cycles.  It assumes cloak is always on.  In practice, for an infiltrator, you will probably get better kill times with a Black Widow because it fits into cloak cycles better.

When I tested them head to head in SP the times vs an Atlas were basically the same for Black Widow and Valiant.  This was with both at Level V.  It was as you mention, basically all Black Widow shots under cloak, and basically only half the Valiant shots.

[Destructo-Bot]

The mistake made is that certain people only look at the Valiant as raw damage numbers by itself. With the right setup, it becomes something else entirely. Look at it as a way to apply ammo effects for detonation whilst also dishing it out like the BW. You should be tossing off fire explosions and headshots with this thing like they are going out of style.

Watch the spawns, and shoot some baddies to apply ammo effects (incendiary is nice) and detonate it for massive AOE damage. Repeat as needed and clean up with headshots. Take bosses down with fire explosions and headshots in rapid succession. Its speed and handling allow it to shine for this task. Instead of being a single target monster you become and AOE devastator that also breaks bosses into little pieces. For the best efficiency, equip the high velocity barrel and armor piercing barrel for through wall shots and damaging multiple enemies with one shot.

That is the way of the Valiant. Also it's just plain fun to use

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:26 .

[Cornughon]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

The mistake made is that certain people only look at the Valiant as raw damage numbers by itself. With the right setup, it becomes something else entirely. Look at it as a way to apply ammo effects for detonation whilst also dishing it out like the BW. You should be tossing off fire explosions and headshots with this thing like they are going out of style.

Watch the spawns, and shoot some baddies to apply ammo effects (incendiary is nice) and detonate it for massive AOE damage. Repeat as needed and clean up with headshots. Take bosses down with fire explosions and headshots in rapid succession. Its speed and handling allow it to shine for this task. Instead of being a single target monster you become and AOE devastator that also breaks bosses into little pieces. For the best efficiency, equip the high velocity barrel and armor piercing barrel for through wall shots and damaging multiple enemies with one shot.

That is the way of the Valiant. Also it's just plain fun to use

The same thing can apply to the Viper X, or even a 'lowly' GPR for that matter. If you want to be dependent on ammo powers you can actually use most guns, not just the Valiant.



I DO think the Valiant needs a buff, before the TC nerf a Valiant I was pretty much comparable to a Black Widow I. Higher firerate, better recoil, and lighter weight vs a bit lower damage per shot and lack of inherent penetration.
Since TC was nerfed the Black Widow's damage has been buffed greatly, as well as the Viper's, which used to be crap.
The Valiant never got buffed and is still the same as before the TC-nerf.
Yes a Valiant X has the highest DPS-ratio of any Sniper rifle 'on paper'. But that's just it, 'on paper'... Things looking good on paper often turn out to be somewhat disappointing when put up for the test for real.
And, at least on the initial launch-platforms, the Valiant is a promotional weapon, while a Viper is just an Uncommon. And the RNG-gods hate me in the case of promotional weapons, and many people have the same issue, while nobody struggles to get the Viper to level X.
While a Valiant II might be actually slightly better than a Viper X, the difference is hardly noticible. Percentages of less than 10% don't really impress me.

And reload-cancelling on the Valiant? For what, that you can fire less than half a second faster? 

Modifié par Cornughon, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[darkpassenger2342]

the valiants ROF is so much better than the vipers i cant even believe you guys are comparing them.
the viper is trash, id rather use the raptor or incisor if i was forced to use an uncommon SR.

[spudspot]

Hm, my Valiant I got roughly the same DPS as my BW VI, still I prefer the BW for that "one shot, one kill" feeling.

It's a similar situation with the Indra, same DPS, but you have to focus on one target for longer than just one shot, which isn't what I like to do with snipers.

For the numbercrunchers: Wasn't there something with the Valiant I doing the same damage as an X version?

[Cornughon]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

the valiants ROF is so much better than the vipers i cant even believe you guys are comparing them.
the viper is trash, id rather use the raptor or incisor if i was forced to use an uncommon SR.

I quote:

Aedolon wrote...
- Valiant I deals 8.5% more damage per bullet than Viper X
- Valiant X deals 41.2% more damage per bullet than Viper X
- Viper empties its clip in about 4.2 seconds, Valiant fires those 6 shots in less than 4 seconds despite having to reload in between - without reload canceling (theoretically 3.3 seconds with perfect reload cancelling)
- Viper has average ROF of 66.1 with reload canceling, 59.3 without
- Valiant has average ROF of 85.7 with reload canceling, 65.9 without

Without reload cancelling it's ROF is hardly 'so much' better...

Unless you're one of the lucky few to have a Valiant V or higher, a Viper is actually a viable alternative.

[Feneckus]

Valiant having the highest DPS is exactly why numbers are completely useless.

What kind of stupid formula do you need to end up with such BS ?