286 réponses à ce sujet

[megabeast37215]

capn233 wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

I don't snipe with the Tsol... I snipe with things that have a 25% multiplicative Sniper Rifle bonus.

Turian Soldier is actually very good with the Black Widow.  I am glad I saw Stardusk's thread about it.

You can body shot -> CS a Nemesis if you are using Disruptor Ammo on it and that will kill her.  So that's nice I guess.

I'm sure it is... I just don't want to respec him for sniping when I have 6 other characters with evolutions that are far superior for sniping than the Tsol.

I have my Tsol with only 2 points in Marksman... I don't want to be locked into Marksman all day with this character, I want access to Concussive shot/Proxy Mine on demand.

[Destructo-Bot]

Simply put the thread title is BS which is where most of the contention is. The Valiant is a platinum capable weapon and it is not badly outclassed by either of those weapons.

But sure BUFF it, why not. I love the Valiant... go ahead and amp it up even more.

[capn233]

megabeast37215 wrote...

I have my Tsol with only 2 points in Marksman... I don't want to be locked into Marksman all day with this character, I want access to Concussive shot/Proxy Mine on demand.

I was doing N7 Mastery so I ended up checking him out with CS.

You don't Marksman spam necessarily.  I only do it if there are a big clump of basics, or if there is something large like an Atlas.

[megabeast37215]

capn233 wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

I have my Tsol with only 2 points in Marksman... I don't want to be locked into Marksman all day with this character, I want access to Concussive shot/Proxy Mine on demand.

I was doing N7 Mastery so I ended up checking him out with CS.

You don't Marksman spam necessarily.  I only do it if there are a big clump of basics, or if there is something large like an Atlas.

That's correct.. Marksman just becomes a boss killer/spike DPS ability. Then you can actually... you know... use the rest of the character.

My kid just unlocked the Valiant X on his account. Later tonight I'm going to do alot of testing/comparing and make a thread about it.

[Scam_poo]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Simply put the thread title is BS which is where most of the contention is. The Valiant is a platinum capable weapon and it is not badly outclassed by either of those weapons.

But sure BUFF it, why not. I love the Valiant... go ahead and amp it up even more.

You have a Valiant VIII, how does that count?

Besides, while we could argue about the Valiant being better than the Viper, it's really a no-brainer if you compare it to the Black Widow or Javelin, which are just about the only sniper rifles that I use. Stop denying it.

Modifié par Scam_poo, 02 décembre 2012 - 12:28 .

[Destructo-Bot]

I won't deny that those are the only sniper rifles you use!

I didn't always have a Valiant 8. I actually had to have a Valiant 1-7 before my 8, so I do have some experience with low level Valiant use. I use the Valiant on my GI as well as classes that don't get notable weapon buffs, such as my Demolisher. It does the job it's meant to do without issue on Gold on both those characters, though it particularly shines on the GI. Stardusk has found that the Tsol synergizes well with the Viper... that really doesn't equate to making the Valiant bad, at least not as the title topic specifies which is my contention.

The Valiant is easily on par with the BW when it is utilized properly, which I've defined in my earlier posts in this very thread. The Javelin is a different beast all-together and it makes about as much sense to compare the Valiant and Javelin as it does the Acolyte and the Reegar.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 02 décembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Scam_poo]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

I won't deny that those are the only sniper rifles you use!

You know what I meant ._.

[KyreneZA]

megabeast37215 wrote...

You're being ridiculous. I have no dog in your fight with the PC guys... but seriously, the math on the Valiant doesn't add up to how it performs in game.

How you can bring two unrelated arguments together is just...?!? Anyway, I have no bone to pick with you, so...

Please tell me what soldier would pick a weapon that requires two headshots to kill an enemy, versus one that can kill an enemy just by touching them.

Are we still comparing Valiant II to BW X? Because that is patently ridiculous itself. Compare Valiant II with BW II, or Valiant X to BW X, or don't make any comparison at all.

megabeast37215 wrote...

My kid just unlocked the Valiant X on his account. Later tonight I'm going to do alot of testing/comparing and make a thread about it.

Just burst DPS and burst lengths for starters (to ridicule Stardusk's assertion). This is on all kits without taking into consideration any race/class/weapon mod/ammo related bonii:
Viper X ~426 DPS, ~5.1s per burst/being out of cover
Valiant II ~682DPS, ~1.8s per burst/being out of cover clear winner

BW X ~924 DPS, 3s per burst/being out of cover
Valiant X ~859 DPS, ~1.8s per burst/being out of cover

No clear winner, and would depend largely on your play style. I'm sure you'd come to the same conclusion after your own testing.

Conclusion: uninformed, knee-jerk, idiotic OP with inflammatory title, from Stardusk.

Modifié par Kyrene, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[Tybo]

Kyrene wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

You're being ridiculous. I have no dog in your fight with the PC guys... but seriously, the math on the Valiant doesn't add up to how it performs in game.

How you can bring two unrelated arguments together is just...?!? Anyway, I have no bone to pick with you, so...

Please tell me what soldier would pick a weapon that requires two headshots to kill an enemy, versus one that can kill an enemy just by touching them.

Are we still comparing Valiant II to BW X? Because that is patently ridiculous itself. Compare Valiant II with BW II, or Valiant X to BW X, or don't make any comparison at all.

megabeast37215 wrote...

My kid just unlocked the Valiant X on his account. Later tonight I'm going to do alot of testing/comparing and make a thread about it.

Just burst DPS and burst lengths for starters (to ridicule Stardusk's assertion). This is on all kits without taking into consideration any race/class/weapon mod/ammo related bonii:
Viper X ~426 DPS, ~5.1s per burst/being out of cover
Valiant II ~682DPS, ~1.8s per burst/being out of cover clear winner

BW X ~924 DPS, 3s per burst/being out of cover
Valiant X ~859 DPS, ~1.8s per burst/being out of cover

No clear winner, and would depend largely on your play style. I'm sure you'd come to the same conclusion after your own testing.

Conclusion: uninformed, knee-jerk, idiotic OP with inflammatory title, from Stardusk.

And this is why, once again, DPS is overrated.  See my sig for a better way to number crunch.  On a Turian Soldier, the Viper will kill almost any non-boss in 2 shots, same as the Valiant.  At 100 RPM in marksman, the Viper shoots fast enough most people can't line up the headshots any quicker.  The Valiant goes up to 155 RPM.  If you can line up headshots that quickly, then I commend you for your shooting ability.

Obviously, the Valiant wins against bosses.  But you really shouldn't be focusing on boss units with a Valiant or Viper Turian Soldier sniper.  That's what your teammates are for, as either way your kill speed is very slow.

The Black Widow is superior to the Valiant because it is capable of one-shotting mooks, even on a non-Infiltrator.  Your time per burst is wrong as well, the BW is 2 seconds while the Valiant is 1.2.  You are no longer in a burst as you begin to reload.  The 60 RPM also allows you to maximize damage while unscoping to look around.  It is very difficult to do that at 100 RPM on a Valiant.

Tl;dr:  DPS sucks.  Use better measures to compare weapon performance.  Viper is as good as a Valiant on a T.So, not as good otherwise.  BW is better than all

[OblivionDawn]

I'm just going to cite all the evidence in this thread and tell you you're doing it wrong.

[Destructo-Bot]

tyhw wrote...

...Obviously, the Valiant wins against bosses.  But you really shouldn't be focusing on boss units with a Valiant or Viper Turian Soldier sniper.  That's what your teammates are for, as either way your kill speed is very slow.

The Black Widow is superior to the Valiant because it is capable of one-shotting mooks, even on a non-Infiltrator...

In this case one shotting mooks actually REDUCES the damage output. Why? Because of ammo effects:

Watch for spawns, shoot 3 mooks to apply incendiary effects via your ammo power and then detonate it for AOE damage to most of the spawn. Repeat until you've killed an entire spawn with only a handful of Valiant shots and left the bosses highly damaged. Clean up the bosses with headshots. I do this and will get to the 75 kill medal by wave 6, not exactly a "very slow kill speed" versus bosses or mooks.

The reasonable weight of the Valiant makes this possible while it's BW-like DPS makes it useful against bosses as well, versus using something like the Falcon which is lousy versus bosses, or the Talon which does great damage but requires close proximity (slowing down the whole process in order to get into effective range).

Here is a scoreboard of a recent game that is useful for this discussion. All 4 players are solid, dependable platinum capable players. All four were using Geth Infilitrators spec'd for damage. All four were using different weapons, one of them the Valiant. Methodical was the host. The delta between the score of players who are all of basically equal skill is large because of the AOE damage the Valiant allows. AOE > Single target.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 02 décembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Tybo]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

In this case one shotting mooks actually REDUCES the damage output. Why? Because of ammo effects:

Watch for spawns, shoot 3 mooks to apply incendiary effects via your ammo power and then detonate it for AOE damage to most of the spawn. Repeat until you've killed an entire spawn with only a handful of Valiant shots and left the bosses highly damaged. Clean up the bosses with headshots. I do this and will get to the 75 kill medal by wave 6, not exactly a "very slow kill speed" versus bosses or mooks.

The reasonable weight of the Valiant makes this possible while it's BW-like DPS makes it useful against bosses as well, versus using something like the Falcon which is lousy versus bosses, or the Talon which does great damage but requires close proximity (slowing down the while process in order to get into effective range).

Sorry, kill speed referred to boss kill speed, not mook kill speed.  You will be taking the mooks out plenty fast.  But it is a point of fact that no sniper rifle will kill bosses quickly compared to a harrier, hurricane, or PPR unless on an infiltrator.

I think 3 one shot kills is better than 3 shots and 1 explosion though, which is what will happen unless you have overload.  All those ammo power explosions will only be doing ~350 damage on gold anyway, double that if TB vs shields or FE against Armor.  I don't doubt that your way kills things fast, I just think a well used BW will always be better.  It's a cool strategy anyway.

Weight is a very good point, making a high level valiant a nice tool on classes which really want lower cooldows.  However, the valiant has one of the largest weight spreads in the game (57% of weight at I at X), making this not a very good choice for those with low level valiants.

[Destructo-Bot]

I've been updating my post ty, not sure you've seen all of it. Bosses melt under GI Valiant fire at the very least, other characters have means to dealing with bosses not restricted to weapons fire.

Plus the ammo burst isn't the only damage being done to the group. If you detonate it with proxy you get the 25% debuff as well as the ~1000 proxy damage on top of the explosions, on top of the weapons fire on top of the burning effect of the ammo power on top of the damage you are doing to several units at a time via the HV barrel and AP barrel in that group (forgot to specify weapons mods, I'd done it in an earlier post).

You can argue that the BW or Valiant is better in general either way and have a point, but the TOPIC title is complete trash which is my point.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 02 décembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[reioni]

I'm sure it's been said but I for one prefer the Valiant because of its quick reload and fire rate.

[Tybo]

I like your strategy, I do think its really cool. To me though, the ammo explosions just aren't powerful enough at 350 damage each to justify losing one shot ability. Anyway, I don't deny that the Valiant is a useful gun, I just think the BW is better. And wanted to point out why DPS is overrated, and in Stardusk's specific usage, the Viper would be better.

Also, at low levels, the Valiant weighs a ton. It hasn't had the weight spread decrease many UR guns have. At high levels, I do like this strategy. Particularly, on something like a GE, which has overload which can do multiple detonations.

[Tybo]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

I've been updating my post ty, not sure you've seen all of it. Bosses melt under GI Valiant fire at the very least, other characters have means to dealing with bosses not restricted to weapons fire.

Plus the ammo burst isn't the only damage being done to the group. If you detonate it with proxy you get the 25% debuff as well as the ~1000 proxy damage on top of the explosions, on top of the weapons fire on top of the burning effect of the ammo power on top of (forgot to specify weapons mods, I'd done it in an earlier post) the damage you are doing to several units at a time via the HV barrel and AP barrel in that group.

You can argue that the BW or Valiant is better in general either way and have a point, but the TOPIC title is complete trash which is my point.

Ok, I can agree on the topic title, and like your arguments.  If I had a high level valiant, I would try it with something with overload.  However, mine is only level 3 and still weighs a ton.  And as to the BW vs Valiant argument, I can see your point.  Logical argument, and I do see its value.  I still think BW is better though:D (Though the Javelin is still my absolute favorite.  One shotting everything through walls is fun)

Modifié par tyhw, 02 décembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Wolfsbladex]

So I got my Widow II today and I have to say my Mantis X and my Javelin X are better. tl;dr Widow sucks and there's better

I just attempted to use your logic. It fails.

[Sabbatine]

Stardusk wrote...

 What is the point of the Valiant? It has a cool scope in sound, maybe that is the appeal to it?

You are trying way to hard.

[Sabbatine]

tyhw wrote...

Obviously, the Valiant wins against bosses.  But you really shouldn't be focusing on boss units with a Valiant or Viper Turian Soldier sniper.  That's what your teammates are for, as either way your kill speed is very slow.

My kill speed with a valiant is just fine.

tyhw wrote...

The Black Widow is superior to the Valiant because it is capable of one-shotting mooks...

If that's the main reason you use a black widow, it needs to be taken away from you and given to someone with a bit of sense.

tyhw wrote...

Tl;dr:  DPS sucks.  Use better measures to compare weapon performance.  Viper is as good as a Valiant on a T.So, not as good otherwise.  BW is better than all

There are two links in your signature neither of which makes reference to the viper, valiant, or black widow.  Both links do look like they were written by a pretentious know it all so I think I'll refrain from clicking for fear of being exposed to three times as much of you as I need to be today.  Next time summarize or provide a real link.

[Tybo]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

I've been updating my post ty, not sure you've seen all of it. Bosses melt under GI Valiant fire at the very least, other characters have means to dealing with bosses not restricted to weapons fire.

Plus the ammo burst isn't the only damage being done to the group. If you detonate it with proxy you get the 25% debuff as well as the ~1000 proxy damage on top of the explosions, on top of the weapons fire on top of the burning effect of the ammo power on top of the damage you are doing to several units at a time via the HV barrel and AP barrel in that group (forgot to specify weapons mods, I'd done it in an earlier post).

You can argue that the BW or Valiant is better in general either way and have a point, but the TOPIC title is complete trash which is my point.

Also, I'd like to see this in action. It's an interesting strategy that I have not seen before, or thought of myself.  Mind if I send you a friend request?  My origin name is tyhw.

[Lexa_D]

Stardusk wrote...
You do realise I snipe with the T.Soldier, not Infiltrators. Tell me on him, how the Valiant is better than the Viper and especially the Black Widow? and the thread is rated low because people are butthurt about a weapon they like. That doesn't change the fact that a Viper X on the T.Soldier will perfomr better than a Valiant II and a Black Widow X will perform better than both.

The poster is an aggressive fool, but nevertheless basing SR ranking on testing Viper vs Valiant on TSol isn't the best approach IMO - and as you don't play Infis, your comparison is incomplete. I'd be only happy if Viper is really better on TSol who compensates it lower accuracy  - meaning Viper isn't useless as most Silver and some gold weapons are. However, in my experience on all bosses (except Atlasi, where second/third hit damage isn't penalised due to natural penetration) Valiant is at least par on SI. It leaves you out of cover for less than BW, allows hitting moving targets better than Jav, lighter than both so it can be used by Asari stasis snipers (vs Paladin), and if it killed mooks with bodyshot, it'd be definitely OP.

[Destructo-Bot]

Origin name is in my sig: AfZ_Ryom send away

I had a video of it in action versus Geth on Vancouver but youtube will simply NOT accept the video no matter what, and handbrake refuses to encode the whole thing to h.264 for some reason. Which is odd because I've done several other videos without issue.

A small piece of that video is here though it doesn't really showcase the technique as I'm just cleaning up stragglers at that point.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 02 décembre 2012 - 09:29 .

[lightswitch]

I can't wait until I get a Valiant so I can hate it too. lol. On a more serious note...

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Watch for spawns, shoot 3 mooks to apply incendiary effects via your ammo power and then detonate it for AOE damage to most of the spawn. Repeat until you've killed an entire spawn with only a handful of Valiant shots and left the bosses highly damaged. Clean up the bosses with headshots. I do this and will get to the 75 kill medal by wave 6, not exactly a "very slow kill speed" versus bosses or mooks.

I'm really confused why you're using a Valiant as your weapon of choice to apply ammo effects. There's so many guns that would work better. PPR, CSR, Harrier, Indra. I mean if you just have a preference for snipers than the CSR will apply the ammo effect more reliably and will still allow you to essentially one shot mooks because it don't give two pennies about shield gate.

I've played this way too, and it's fun because fire explosions are fun, but I question the quality of your teammates if you're getting 75 kills by wave 6. Priming and detonating explosions will always be slower than just shooting enemies in the face.

Also, why not just use biotics? BEs do more damage, right? I guess you could argue FEs set up secondary explosions, but just spec Reave for area effect and have someone Throw everything in sight and you'll get pretty much the same effect.

[lightswitch]

My point with the above post is that arguing the Valiant is better than the BW because it's a better primer is just weird. It's like arguing the Beretta is better than a Colt .45 because the Beretta is better as a paperweight. Why not just get a paperweight? If your whole strategy is to prime and set off explosions, take a weapon that's optimal for that purpose.

Modifié par lightswitch, 02 décembre 2012 - 09:50 .

[samg8]

I think my Valiant is at XIII and it's my favorite weapon. Not great for bosses but headshots on everything else and it's a wrap. I love it!