148 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

How should Dragon Age: Inquisition handle this?

In BG 1, there was Candlekeep. In BG 2, there was Irenicus' dungeon. In Jade Empire, there was Two-Rivers. In DA:O, there was Ostigar. In ME 1, there was Eden Prime.

Most of these aren't too bad in the first playthrough, but try them a second time and suddenly they can quickly become dull.

Dragon Age 2 dealt with this by abbreviating the beginning. KotOR dealt with this by abbreviating the beginning and then making Taris the real introduction to the world.

Fans dealt with this by making mods that let you skip these levels.

I wonder if that's a good idea. The first time you play through the tutorial section, and on subsequent playthroughs you can choose to skip it.

What do you think?

(Feel free to tell me how I'm wrong and you loved those areas. I know some of you did.)

[whykikyouwhy]

A tutorial that could be skipped on subsequent playthroughs would be lovely. But there may be story elements that could be lost in the process, say for various classes or origins. So that section might have to be a carbon copy across all such overall deviations, without dialogue variations - otherwise it would still be a necessary slog (if you want to get all of those little details, that is).

[Doctoglethorpe]

Games should just forgoe placing tutorials in the campaign all together.  The ME3 tutorial ruined any sense that our first visit to Earth in the series was supposed to feel special. 

Instead, just make it a seperate little mode.  Something completely skippable that does not have any impact on the story at all.  Just a little arena or something where the game teaches you how to play it.  That way when the campaign starts, you can jump right into solid gameplay. 

Or just do what Origins did and not even have a tutorial at all.  (I dont understand how you think Ostagar is one)  I'm fine with that, not like I need one. 

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 01 décembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[upsettingshorts]

I can say these only felt like slogs to me upon replaying the game.

As such, I don't really feel like my later opinions of them are as relevant as my first impression which judged them to be fine.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 décembre 2012 - 04:39 .

[TheJediSaint]

Well, the easiest game play mechanic to learn in any Bioware game is the dialogue system. So have the game start with a conversation that fills the player the required opening exposition. At the end, the player would be asked if they need to do the tutorial, where they can answer either "yes" or "no".

[addiction21]

Eden Prime and Candlekeep I liked. Quick to the point and get you on your journey.
Tanaris and that first trip to the Citidel was a slog for me and that hurdle I had to get past to get to the game.
For me BioWare is mostly hit or miss in this aspect. The first time is alway fine but after that its just going to be up to me likeing it or not.

[Puzzlewell]

I'm going to have to completely agree on Irenicus' dungeon for sure. Candlekeep doesn't really bother me too much though. Replaying Origins, Ostigar is pretty eh for me on replays as well. I guess it boils down to the wonder of a new game being gone when it comes to replays and we know the good parts and want to get to them sooner.

[Plaintiff]

Given that many gamers don't complete a game even once, I'm more concerned about areas that feel like a slog the first time. In DA:O, all I wanted from the Fade and the Deep Roads was to get out and never return.

They were actually easier on subsequent replays because I knew what to do in what order, but they're still not enjoyable experiences. All I could think was "Oh lord, here we go again."

Enjoyment of an activity will always decrease the more times you repeat it. That's just how human brains are wired. I don't think there's much Bioware can do to alleviate that.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 décembre 2012 - 05:14 .

[nightscrawl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I can say these only felt like slogs to me upon replaying the game.

As such, I don't really feel like my later opinions of them are as relevant as my first impression which judged them to be fine.

Same here. Actually the only ones that seemed like slogs in subsequent plays were the Dalish elf and both dwarven origins, probably because of the mini dungeon crawls that you have to do in each of those. The mage origin I've done so many times I could probably play with my eyes closed, so that is just routine to me now...

[Icesong]

Wait, you're exempting Taris as a slog?

[devSin]

Irenicus' dungeon was always a struggle.

Not sure what the solution is, though.

Modifié par devSin, 01 décembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[ohnotherancor]

Much of Taris was also a slog, especially on replays. Despite my fiery love for the KOTOR games.

I liked the skippable Harvest Festival tutorial in NWN 2. Candlekeep is also basically skippable since you can immediately go to Gorion after buying gear. Though, unlike NWN 2, you'll lose out on all XP and quest rewards if you do that.

[Avaflame]

I haven't played all of the games you've mentioned, but for the ones you have I personally have had no problem. Especially Ostagar, I love the opening hours of Origins. I thought they handled Origin -> Lothering very well.

[Dabrikishaw]

Being able to skip playing at least Ostagar would have been grand.

[BouncyFrag]

Even though KOTOR2 was done by Obsidian, that whip/slog of getting off the initial installation warrants an honorable mention. Even after this, it is still a good long while until you finally got your lightsaber.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Rojahar wrote...

Like the chapters in Bioware's Neverwinter Nights?

NWN is the only Bioware game I played that I didn't finish. I gave up after the starter dungeon because I found it incredibly boring.

The other games I only found the starter areas a slog to get through because they were relatively linear (for the record, I consider the escape from Lothering to be DA2's tutorial, not the first year in Kirkwall).

For DA:O, if you take the Origins as the tutorial sections, it's great. There's, what, 6 of them or something. Ostagar gets dull on the second play, but many people think the same thing about the Fade and the Deep Roads.  Or exploring the Wounded Coast for the umpteenth time. It's the tedious follow-this-path-to-the-end-and-see-nothing-new that makes it boring, at least for me, so I'd be greatly in favour of more than one direction to reach the goal. And I'm not just talking about dialogue. I'm thinking a literal fork in the dungeon road. Maybe there's two tunnels that reach the Anvil of the Void. At Ostagar, maybe Duncan offers a choice of whether to get maps that way, or help Loghain's forces out in the other direction.

Unfortunately, I recognise that while split paths are fantastic for replay value, and possibly even for those who get bored on the very first run of the starter dungeon, they're not cheap. And perhaps not financially practical, if the people who don't finish the game outnumber the ones that do (thus why bother?)

Plus, I'm happy with a game that's simply awesome on a single play, instead of mediocre or bad.

[AshenShug4r]

KOTOR had the biggest slog of them all.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Maria Caliban wrote...
The first time you play through the tutorial section, and on subsequent playthroughs you can choose to skip it.  

This is what Obsidian did in KOTOR 2 to a minor extent.  The tutorial section was playing as T3M4, repairing the Ebon Hawk and bringing it in to dock.  That section is skippable, though it does provide some context and information on Exile, Kreia, and the ship.  (Of course, Peragus is still a f***ing slogfest.)

I thought the abbreviated beginning of DA2 was both good and bad.  Good for avoiding the slog, bad for tossing us into the story with little background information on Hawke's family, how we got here, etc.  In medias res is a useful storytelling technique, but IMO it can also be confusing and disorienting (or in the case of DA2, it dampens the emotional connection at the beginning).

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Dunno what you're talking about. ME2 is the only game with a ****ty beginning

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Hey, Irenicus' Dungeon was a great first area and a great introduction to the game, set up the antagonist really well by feeding you just enough information to get you intrigued and compelled you to dig deeper and find out just who exactly this Irenicus character was.

Candlekeep was little more than a tutorial though but I suppose you could always just head straight to Gorion and get the show on the road.

[Allan Schumacher]

Based on discussion on the BSN, I feel there's a very mixed reception to the pacing of the beginning.

Many have stated they found it jarring to jump straight into an escape as Hawke without much context. They feel it undermined the effect of losing a sibling, as they hadn't yet established any reason to care for said sibling. I find these people tend to appreciate the slower beginnings of the Origins stories, as it helped them feel established in the setting and to make sense of some of the relationships.


On the counterpoint, I do agree DAO feels more like a slog (you think you guys think Ostagar is a slog, aye carumba!), and there have been some that feel that DA2's speedier introduction is preferrable (even some who feel that the sibling death was undermined due to the briefness actually don't mind the overall pace of the intro).

I think it's a tricky card to play. I personally value the first playthrough over subsequent playthrough (since it's untainted by extra knowledge), but that's just my perspective.

[Obrusnine]

I think absolutely none of those examples compare to how Obsidian handled the first hours of Knights of the Old Republic 2. Excellent game, but the beginning was tedious and boring and it really hurts replay value.

I also didn't really think Ostagar was that bad. It has a pretty neat climax, and I'm okay with that. Eden Prime was the same way.

Taris is still torture though, it's just that Peragus and Telos drag on even longer then Taris does.

[CrazyRah]

For me Taris is the real slog. That planet know exactly how to be as boring and tedious as possible. Taris almost managed on its own make me give up on Kotor. Eden Prime can perhaps be like a slog but since it's a very short part i blitz through it before coffee is done. DAO and Ostagar don't feel like a slog to me yet at least. Then again i've like only done all of Ostagar 3 times. But i very much prefer the slower beginnings in a game rather than the beginning we had in DA2 with getting thrown directly into the escape as Hawke with a couple of complete strangers to me. Out of all Bioware games that i've played i think Origins is the closest to how i prefer beginnings. It's not perfect mind you and there's room for improvements