148 réponses à ce sujet

[schalafi]

Why don't all you players who don't want to play a game again because of the boring prologue, just play it once and make a save when it's over. Then if you want to play again, but not the prologue, just go to your save and start there.

That's what I do on boring prologues.

[QueenPurpleScrap]

The nice thing about the origins stories in Origins was not just that they introduced me to different aspects of the world and helped me define my character before any traumatic events, but that they did allow me to become comfortable with the mechanics without being obvious tutorials. Everything from dialog to combat was covered in the different scenarios.

DA2 started with a tutorial and a character you had nothing to do with except choosing the class. I hated that section the first time and it never got better. I always wished there were a way to skip it and have choosing your class part of the character generator. There was really no reason for it that I see, since you didn't have a choice of origin spending a half hour or an hour in Lothering would have made much more sense to me. Maybe finding more spider venom for Barlin's poisonous traps could have been included (LOL).

I can certainly understand that pacing can be difficult. I never minded Ostagar or the KW, and I hated the Fade the first few times. It's still a bit of a slog but at least I get lots of attribute points as a reward. One of the reasons I didn't like it was not from a story perspective but a physical one. The not entirely in focus aspect of the background bothers my eyes and sometimes triggered a headache.

As far as tutorial aspects go, if they are as obvious as DA2 make them a separate menu option. If you decide to release a demo at some point, then use that as an option in the game menu just so people can get used to the mechanics if they want to or they can choose to dive right in.

[challenger18]

schalafi wrote...

Why don't all you players who don't want to play a game again because of the boring prologue, just play it once and make a save when it's over. Then if you want to play again, but not the prologue, just go to your save and start there.

That's what I do on boring prologues.

Because I want to create a different character. 

BioWare may want to look into having skippable intros or doing what Bethesda does in allowing you to change your character before exiting to the main portion of the game (or in the case of Skyrim, allowing you to save after the intro and before the character creation starts). 

I've used mods and cheats to try and get out of watching/playing through the intro section to BioWare games, it would be nice if there was at least an option where upon replaying the game I can choose to skip cutscenes and intro/tutorial sections. 

[Maria Caliban]

schalafi wrote...

Why don't all you players who don't want to play a game again because of the boring prologue, just play it once and make a save when it's over. Then if you want to play again, but not the prologue, just go to your save and start there.

That's what I do on boring prologues.

Because I'd want to play at least a different class.

[Ryzaki]

Maybe a skip prologue button if the game senses you've finished it before?

I dunno.

[Amycus89]

I think that these sections are important for the "flow" of the story, and that the "skip" options hurts the immersion of a game. I do admit that there are some "sluggish" parts in the beginning of many games though.

Personally though, I would solve that by simply making these acts feel more important. One way would simply be to make some of your choices way early in the game decide how later sections will play out later in the game - which would at the same time solve another problem I have with Bioware games: Any choices that ARE present in the games often have immediate effects where you can simply save and reload to quickly see which is the best option.

An easy way to do this would be to meet a future enemy before you "know" he is the final enemy and unknowingly being able to influence him. DA:O actually had a bit of this with Loghain, you could speak with him in Ostagar, and depending on your choices there, receive a different reaction from him in your second meeting when you were enemies - but that was also the only change.

Alpha protocol also did this, but to a much larger degree , where whole boss battles in the endgame changed depending on how you acted in the tutorial section.

Modifié par Amycus89, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:18 .

[Kangaxx628]

While some of the beginnings were a bit of a slog the second time around, the chests you couldn't unlock without being a rogue yourself was quite frustrating, but that is a rant for another thread with the whole only rogues can open locked chests.

[Dorrieb]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
NWN is the only Bioware game I played that I didn't finish. I gave up after the starter dungeon because I found it incredibly boring.

Hear hear!

The beginning is crucial because that's where you relate to your character, and through the character to the story. I actually had no problem with the start of DA2: Okay, I'm a survivor of the army at Ostagar and I'm on the run from the blight with my family in tow, and here's my mum, and here's my sister that we protect from the templars, and here's my brother who is a bit jealous of me. Sure I can relate to that. It was later that they lost me. Here's a tip: the protagonist should want something, even if it's only a cake.

[Newschmoo]

scyphozoa wrote...


The origins in DAO were very well done in terms of content and pacing. I would like to see that in DA3 with the backstories.

I like those too.  Plus there were six origins to go through!

[Exile Isan]

Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark are much better then the Original Campaign.

Anyway, I would say the Taris and The Citadel are the worst at this, even Peragus/Telos isn't as annoying to me as Taris was. They are both just too long. This is also what the problem with the Deep Roads and The Fade in DA:O, they are too long, and in relation to the Deep Roads my character (being a human mage) didn't really care who ruled Orzammer as long as they gave her an army, and I was irrated that I had to jump through so many hoops to get it.

Eden Prime is, IMHO, a excellent example of how the beginning of a game should be (even ME3 was good I thought, Earth/Mars). ME2 not so much Miranda yelling instructions at me got annoying really fast. But if it must have a tutorial have it be like NWN2 and the High Harvest Festival, the spell casting tutorial was pretty inventive I thought.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:43 .

[Amycus89]

Dorrieb wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
NWN is the only Bioware game I played that I didn't finish. I gave up after the starter dungeon because I found it incredibly boring.

Hear hear!

The beginning is crucial because that's where you relate to your character, and through the character to the story. I actually had no problem with the start of DA2: Okay, I'm a survivor of the army at Ostagar and I'm on the run from the blight with my family in tow, and here's my mum, and here's my sister that we protect from the templars, and here's my brother who is a bit jealous of me. Sure I can relate to that. It was later that they lost me. Here's a tip: the protagonist should want something, even if it's only a cake.

To be fair, the beginning wasn't the problem in the main campaign of NWN - the whole main campaign was just as boring as the start. What made NWN great was the toolset - plus HOTU, I liked that expansion alone more than I have liked many modern, full games.

[Foolsfolly]

I actually like the speed of DA2's opening. It takes you about an hour to an hour and a half to set you up in Kirkwall and start your adventures.

As I've said many times on this site before I'd have preferred just starting the game with Hawke and family on the boat from Ferelden since we don't need to see Hawke's home get razed by the darkspawn we only need to see how it affected the Hawke family to see what that means. Like most immigrant stories ever told.

DA:O was too much too fast. Especially if you went Mage or Human Noble you just get thrown all this information without real context for the world yet. I wasn't online about Origins I knew nothing about it or its world the first time I played it. So it boggled you down. That's why the Dwarf Commoner is my favorite origin not only is it paced really well but it's super easy to understand "Poor person forced to criminality" it's a basic trope.

On the topic of other BioWare games I think Taris held out too long. It's a slogfest that actually feels longer than Dantoonie, Korriban, and Tatoonie (about the same length for Manaan and Kashykke or however you spell it but that may just be my dislike of hearing the same canned Wookie sounds in every goddamn conversation).

ME1's Eden Prime and Normandy starting point is paced well although this is followed by the first Citadel visit which, if you're like me and statistically speaking you're not, takes about 2-2.5 hours to complete every side quest available... which again is something you endure more than enjoy.

ME3's is worse. Earth is ok for a tutorial stage... then Mars, the Citadel, the Normandy's briefings and conversations.... by the time you touch the Galaxy Map 3 hours of the game has passed (hell it may as well be five hours. I timed it once because of how overly long it feels but I've forgotten how long it actually takes). It's crazy long to just set the game up and get you flying.

And at that time you're still running with two squad mates meaning you still don't have a choice on who to bring on missions! Even if you grab the DLC character Javik he's unavailable for missions until after the Palavan moon mission.

So I'd prefer a speedier start like DA2 had. Only... and this goes without saying, better than DA2's opening.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:56 .

[Exile Isan]

Foolsfolly wrote...
On the topic of other BioWare games I think Taris held out too long. It's a slogfest that actually feels longer than Dantoonie, Korriban, and Tatoonie (about the same length for Manaan and Kashykke or however you spell it but that may just be my dislike of hearing the same canned Wookie sounds in every goddamn conversation).

While I like Kashyyyk because that's where you get Jolee, I agree with the wookiee sounds. This is why I always have my dog handy when I do that planet because he barks at the TV and tries to find the wookiees behind the stand! 'Tis amusing. He doesn't like hutts either.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:07 .

[Foolsfolly]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I honestly find Bioware games to have way better first are then for example skyrim. Awesome games, but Helgen gets boring after the first time, so much you cant skip.

Truth time. Despite having 4-5 Skyrim characters I've only ever seen the entirety of the opening once. That auto-save it does before you get to the character create? I've always just loaded that and started a new character from there. So the carriage ride is something I've seen once.

As for Helgen itself? It's a simple tutorial section. It's on rails but it's over in 40 minutes if that and then all of Skyrim is open to you. It's a nice opening, in my opinion.

[Melca36]

DA2's beginning was too linear.

I wanted to see the destruction of Lothering.

What I got was something boring and beneath the standards of WHAT I EXPECT for a Bioware game.


Origins was fun and anybody who couldn't finish it is a LAZY gamer in my book.

[schalafi]

Kangaxx628 wrote...

While some of the beginnings were a bit of a slog the second time around, the chests you couldn't unlock without being a rogue yourself was quite frustrating, but that is a rant for another thread with the whole only rogues can open locked chests.

I agree. I wish they would put a "bash" option in the game like in NWN2.

[Amycus89]

schalafi wrote...

Kangaxx628 wrote...

While some of the beginnings were a bit of a slog the second time around, the chests you couldn't unlock without being a rogue yourself was quite frustrating, but that is a rant for another thread with the whole only rogues can open locked chests.

I agree. I wish they would put a "bash" option in the game like in NWN2.

There is actually a mod that enables that for DA:O if you play on PC - from the descripton all the animations was already there, but Bioware had removed it at the last minute if I remember correctly. But yeah, I too hope that we will have this option from the start in DA3, with a chance to ruin the loot if you don't have a rogue to lockpick it.

[Orian Tabris]

I like the tutorial areas in games, even if I don't need the help. As long as they feel a little bit like they're there, becasue they're part of the game world, and not just there to act as tutorials.

I've played BG1, didn't like Candlekeep, except for the church-like building in the middle. I picked out a VA or two, in that singing bard trio. Do not remember who it was though. I liked Irenicus's Dugneon, though I got bored after the third time through it. I still like the detroyed Lothering area in DA2, even after 7-10 times through it, except for the fight with the Ogre, Aveline and Beth/Car.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

A tutorial that could be skipped on subsequent playthroughs would be lovely. But there may be story elements that could be lost in the process, say for various classes or origins. So that section might have to be a carbon copy across all such overall deviations, without dialogue variations - otherwise it would still be a necessary slog (if you want to get all of those little details, that is).

I'm all for tutorial areas being skippable after being completed in first playthrough. It's easy enough with Bethesda games: just create a save right before the post-tutorial area, usually a physical exit like a door (or a section of road after tutorial town, like in Obsidian's Fallout: New Vegas) where player is given the option to revise their character before travelling on. Mind you that's Bethesda and this is BioWare we're talking about. So yeah, skippable tutorials are fine.

A note: OP, Ostagar is not a tutorial area. The Origin Stories in DA:O were the tutorial areas, much in the same way the Endar Spire was in KOTOR.

Personally I would have liked Peragus to be skippable on subsequent playthroughs in KOTOR II, but that wasn't a BioWare game (Obsidian again).

[Xerxes52]

Personally I though Ostagar and Korcari Wilds were a slog, but the Origins were very well paced imo.

We probably won't get multiple playable Origins this time around, but the opening area of Inquisition should be paced like an Origin.

[cindercatz]

I thought all of the DA:O origins themselves were excellent, in their pacing, in the oppurtunities for character building, and in their different introductions to the DA world and your place in it. That's the best opening I've ever seen in a game, because there's just so much depth, so much character building. This would be the model I'd build off from here out if I had a choice.

I also enjoy the quick tutorial areas from a story standpoint, when you're talking about something like ME2 or KoTOR 2, a little 15 minute thing that's more about ambiance and minor story beats than doing anything that's supposed to matter to your character.

I also like Ostagar and I loved Taris, so I don't see the issue with Taris, but where there is some slog at Ostagar (or any other fairly long level, like the mage tower), it's not the pacing really, or the size of the level that's an issue, it's the linearity. Ostagar slows down once I get to a point where I know I've got to do the same set of 10 or so sidequests and the same 3 or 4 main story points with very little change, and I actually felt that way on the first playthrough, because things kind of get prescribed out for you and you don't have much choice centered gameplay for a few hours after the introduction to Alistair and before the attack of the Darkspawn. I appreciate the lull time, the calm before the storm, but the repetition of long linear gameplay segments is an issue.

And backtracking the same area. If I have one real issue with Taris, it's how much time you spend backtracking, but I didn't really mind it there because I just found the environments and the cinematic dialogue, and the music and all that so beautiful. Kind of like I didn't really mind the repetitive intros to all the cinematic convo screens with companions so much, or going back to repeating dialogue lines too much, because the voice acting is so strong and they were just pretty to look at for the time.

DA2's is the worst opening to a game with any kind of real story that I've played, because I really did feel the opening undercut anything I was supposed to feel in the first third of the game, and that it took my character out of my hands. I didn't get over that and really get into the other characters until near the end of Act 1, and I never really felt like Hawke was mine throughout DA2. Add in the corridor level and the repetitive combat and it actually hurt the game a great deal for me. The only saving grace is really that it's so brief, or at least it felt like about a 15 minute trudge to me. I really don't like skipping the intro segment because of the story beats that should be there, but if it's something like DA2, being skippable would be a plus.

So.. less linearity, more time getting to know the characters and the world, some chance to help define my character at the start through some branching story, and hold the backtracking to a minimum. That's my preferred style opening.

edit:
On DA3:I
I'm not sure what to expect with the backgrounds, and I'm not really sure what 'non-playable' really means. Does it mean we pick them and they're just kind of there with a few lines like Mass Effect? That would be a massive step back. Or does it mean we don't do any fighting or equipment management and things like that? If it's a seperate opening cinematic, basically, and it changes based on choices we're allowed to make, if we still get to play any of the dialogue exchanges that take place and help define our character that way, and then the gameplay tutorial segment comes after, I think that would still be great.

Modifié par cindercatz, 02 décembre 2012 - 12:25 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

I prefer to start a second playthrough with different first area, either based on race, origins, class or specialization. DAO has 6 starting first areas based on Origins. DAO only problem is, all those origins lead to Ostagar and continue to be linear until the end ( typical BioWare's story which is why I never fond of BioWare's story, instead I play BioWare games mostly on mods either my own stand alone custom single player campaign or other people mods ). I would enjoy multi-divergent non-linear plot starting from multiple first areas. But naah. I don't think BioWare is too keen on providing so much options. It's difficult to manage and tie together.

[Costin_Razvan]

I vastly prefer DA2's intro vs DA:Os intro despite my dislike of the sibling death.

And no I still hate DA2 overall.