148 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

How should Dragon Age: Inquisition handle this?

In BG 1, there was Candlekeep. In BG 2, there was Irenicus' dungeon. In Jade Empire, there was Two-Rivers. In DA:O, there was Ostigar. In ME 1, there was Eden Prime.

Most of these aren't too bad in the first playthrough, but try them a second time and suddenly they can quickly become dull.

Candlekeep was a bit of a slog, but I don't agree on the others at all.  Frankly, the thing in DAO that I find arduous to do again and again is Lothering.

To the question posed, being able to skip the tutorial section is a good idea.  NWN did this extremely well - a new game could be begun at the start of any chapter that had been reached.  All of BioWare's games should offer something similar.

[FaWa]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I honestly find Bioware games to have way better first are then for example skyrim. Awesome games, but Helgen gets boring after the first time, so much you cant skip.

ITS ****ING ELDER SCROLLS, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO DO ANYTHING IN HELGEN




Speaking of Elder Scrolls

Daggerfall has the worst opening dungeon ever. The design is fine. But the opening dungeon is harder than 50% of the fights in the rest of the game. Once I FINALLY got through it, the rest of the game was signifigantly not as stupidly hard. 


And Candlekeep is boring but it lasts like 5 seconds... DA2 had a fast paced opening but like the rest of DA2 it was a trainwreck. I would much rather have seen Carver die AFTER I realized how awful he is. 

Modifié par FaWa, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:57 .

[Icesong]

FaWa wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I honestly find Bioware games to have way better first are then for example skyrim. Awesome games, but Helgen gets boring after the first time, so much you cant skip.

ITS ****ING ELDER SCROLLS, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO DO ANYTHING IN HELGEN

You can't skip Helgen unless you mod it.

[iOnlySignIn]

Lazarus Station is one of my favorite levels of ME2.

Especially concerning how it ends.

[Montana]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Lazarus Station is one of my favorite levels of ME2.

Especially concerning how it ends.

That's an awesome ME moment.
ME2 is a slog in the beginning because you have 10 minutes barely interactive cutscenes right away that isn't interesting after the first time.

The problem usually comes when introductions become too long before you're let loose on the world, or too short for that matter.

[Dr. Doctor]

No intro section ever can compare to the sheer tedium that was Peragus/Citadel Station in KOTOR 2. We just went through a stupid maze of locked doors and puzzles so we can go and play errand boy for a couple hours.

[Madmoe77]

No matter when the fade is played in Origins it was a hot-poker to the eye. So I agree with many others on that. Since it has been mentioned I believe that origins like in Origins won't be back then I suspect we will get a similar beginning as DA2, which was fine. Absent a storyteller/narrator like Varric though, I wonder how they will handle it. Waking up on a battle field would be great!

Just imagine a woozy eyed player comes to in a warzone in the aftermath or even mid battle. You reach for a weapon of your choice and that becomes your class. Stumble to a watering hole or blood puddle and this is the cue to design your players looks. So much potential. Anywho, like I said the beginning doesn't necessarily have to start like origins at all given the fact that origins existed to introduce Thedas. DA2 sped that up and it was enjoyable and humorous. Inquisition needs a bang to start.

Edit for clarity: The origins decided my slog. Some were boring. 

Modifié par Madmoe77, 02 décembre 2012 - 06:45 .

[Direwolf0294]

I've got mixed feelings on this. The beginning of some BioWare games feel really painful to get through, but others it feels fine.

I absolutely hated Taris and found Ostagar a huge bore with both of them being painful to get through. On the other hand I loved the origin stories in DA:O, loved the stuff on the Citadel in ME before you got your ship, which apparently a lot of people hated, and was one of the people who felt DA2 jumping straight into the action was a terrible decision.

I think it comes down to two things, story and gameplay. I thought the story on Taris was boring and felt the gameplay in KoTOR was poor, so I just wanted to get out of there and get my lightsaber. In DA:O I wasn't a fan of the combat either and since Ostagar featured a lot of fighting I just wanted to get through it (to be honest though, I felt that way with almost all the combat sections in DA:O) but I thought the origin stories were really good so I was happy to play through them (the fact they didn't have too much combat and the combat was all really easy because of being low levels probably helped). With DA2, the combat was funner but the story really suffered, at least initially, because you were thrown straight into the action and I didn't like that. In ME I liked both the combat and the story, so of course I was happy during the starting sections.

So I guess my answer for DA3 is, if combat is boring I hope the start's something you can get through really quick, if the combat isn't boring but the story isn't good I won't enjoy it, I'm willing to put up with bad/boring combat if it means the starting story is really, really good and if the game has both good combat and a good starting story I'll love it.

[kartupelis]

I am sorry, but I possibly can not pay attention to something a pony-wan**r has said.

[HiroVoid]

kartupelis wrote...

I am sorry, but I possibly can not pay attention to something a pony-wan**r has said.

I suppose you've never enjoyed 'Courage the Cowardly Dog', 'Batman: The animated series', 'Dexter's Laboratory', or any other show like that?

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

FaWa wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I honestly find Bioware games to have way better first are then for example skyrim. Awesome games, but Helgen gets boring after the first time, so much you cant skip.

ITS ****ING ELDER SCROLLS, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO DO ANYTHING IN HELGEN

Well technically nobody is forcing you to do anything in Call of Duty either but if you dont follow the linear path nothing actually happens and the game doesnt progress.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

To the question posed, being able to skip the tutorial section is a good idea. NWN did this extremely well - a new game could be begun at the start of any chapter that had been reached. All of BioWare's games should offer something similar.

Do you not see the huge pitfalls associated with such a model and what needs to be sacrificed in order to create said gameplay model?

[ScotGaymer]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

How should Dragon Age: Inquisition handle this?

In BG 1, there was Candlekeep. In BG 2, there was Irenicus' dungeon. In Jade Empire, there was Two-Rivers. In DA:O, there was Ostigar. In ME 1, there was Eden Prime.

Most of these aren't too bad in the first playthrough, but try them a second time and suddenly they can quickly become dull.

Candlekeep was a bit of a slog, but I don't agree on the others at all.  Frankly, the thing in DAO that I find arduous to do again and again is Lothering.

To the question posed, being able to skip the tutorial section is a good idea.  NWN did this extremely well - a new game could be begun at the start of any chapter that had been reached.  All of BioWare's games should offer something similar.

I feel weird.

I am agreeing with you Sylvius and disagreeing with Maria.

It's strange lol. Itchy.

I don't think any of the tutorial areas were a slog at all.

Candlekeep was fun. I enjoyed Irenicus' dungeon but I did and do have the skip it mod but only to get into the meat of the game on repeated playthrus. The Endar Spire and Taris are good, but also modded to skip to Dantooine for the same reason I skip Irenicus' dungeon. Two Rivers was fine (the swamp was the annoying part in that game). The origins in DAO were all awesome,  and Ostagar was fine - it only turns into a slog when you combine it with Lothering.  Eden Prime was great, it was the Citadel that was a pain in the backside to do. ME2's intro section is fine.

And then we hit the last two.

DA2 and ME3.

Both had so short as to be pointless introductions. DA2 didn't give us time to appreciate or like our siblings before brutalling murdering one leaving is going "um so? why should we care?"
ME3 failed to do the job of an intro section in every single way. I can't even begin to criticise that section lest I fall into a lengthy rant.

So yes. Intro sections were fine.

[FaWa]

Icesong wrote...

FaWa wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I honestly find Bioware games to have way better first are then for example skyrim. Awesome games, but Helgen gets boring after the first time, so much you cant skip.

ITS ****ING ELDER SCROLLS, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO DO ANYTHING IN HELGEN

You can't skip Helgen unless you mod it.

Helgen is 4 minutes long and you never ever ever ever have to return to it ever 

[Kidd]

More importantly than whether it's a slog or not, I think it's important not to put too much plot in the tutorial. If we go through some of the games,

BG1: Candlekeep is set before the conflict really starts. There's a feeling that things will change soon, but there's no real plot here while being tutorial'd. Since you can also go to Gorion right away, the tutorial is essentially skippable.

DAO: The origins are set before the conflict really starts, you get used to the world and the game system at the same time. The conflicts you face are very personal and easy to take in while learning - the origins all have their endings after you've already played through their tutorial sections.

DA2: Thrown right into the action, you really should care about the plot at this point. Your family's home has just been lost to evil creatures, your family and new acquaintances are dying in droves... and all the while you're learning how to play the game. The exaggerated section before this is probably intended to function as more of a tutorial than this, but it frankly doesn't since all it teaches you is bad habits gameplay-wise (not to mention giving you an odd idea of what kind of game you're truly playing).

ME3: After being set up over the course of two games, the Reapers finally attack Earth. This is also the time you see Earth for the first time. Two huge moments in their own rights, and they're held back by not only having the player learning how to play the game instead of focusing on what they're seeing - your war hero character who you have potentially spent some 70 hours adventuring with seems to need Anderson to learn how to fight. It's very jarring.

While I find NWN2 (not a BW game, I know ) lacking in many ways, they ace the tutorial bits I think. You learn the game and your character's origin in peaceful times. You can focus on familiarising yourself with the immediate game world and the mechanics. Then at the very end of the tutorial, something terrible happens that sets you off on your journey. Can it get better? Yup, the tutorial is completely skippable.

[upsettingshorts]

FaWa wrote...

Icesong wrote...

FaWa wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I honestly find Bioware games to have way better first are then for example skyrim. Awesome games, but Helgen gets boring after the first time, so much you cant skip.

ITS ****ING ELDER SCROLLS, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO DO ANYTHING IN HELGEN

You can't skip Helgen unless you mod it.

Helgen is 4 minutes long and you never ever ever ever have to return to it ever 

I looked up a Skyrim Lets Play on Youtube.  From "Bethesda Presents" to escaping the cave at the end, it takes approximately a half hour to finish.  That's just one playthrough, of course, and I'm sure that the duration can vary from player to player, but four minutes?  Come on.

Sure, you can shave some time off of that by making a save at the character creator.  Or playing it on super low difficulty.  Or saving outside the cave and using ~showracemenu if you want to change anything.  But if you are genuinely starting a new game and aren't using mods, it's the very definition of a slog, seeing as the rest of Skyrim is the opposite of a scripted, linear scenario.

[Tigerman123]

Dragon age 2's tutorial level was awful, not just due to threadbare story but also because it didn't explain the game mechanics properly, utilising Cross class Combos was vital to progressing through combat at a decent pace regardless of difficulty, but iirc you were never told that they existed

[Hatchetman77]

I've never had a problem with any of the opening areas in any BioWare game (well, mabey Taris in KotOR was a bit of a slog).  I did have a problem with DA2's lack of an "Origin" area though.

Modifié par Hatchetman77, 02 décembre 2012 - 06:14 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I looked up a Skyrim Lets Play on Youtube.  From "Bethesda Presents" to escaping the cave at the end, it takes approximately a half hour to finish.  That's just one playthrough, of course, and I'm sure that the duration can vary from player to player, but four minutes?  Come on.

Sure, you can shave some time off of that by making a save at the character creator.  Or playing it on super low difficulty.  Or saving outside the cave and using ~showracemenu if you want to change anything.  But if you are genuinely starting a new game and aren't using mods, it's the very definition of a slog, seeing as the rest of Skyrim is the opposite of a scripted, linear scenario.

The question here is about subsequent playthroughs.  Much of the time spent in any Elder Scrolls game is figuring out what you're doing and how to do it - on a subsequent playthrough that doesn't happen.  Also, as the game does create an auto-save at Character Creation, I'd say Skyrim explicitly supports skipping the opening sequence in the cart.

So, what you should be measuring is the time it takes to move from the end of character creation to the exit of that cave when the player already knows what he's doing and what he'll encounter.  And that's probably more than 4 minutes, yes, but it's not more than 12.

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

I think it all stems from the typical Narrative Structure of past BioWare games.

You start up the intro to the game. Once its over you are allowed freedom to go about 3 or 4 areas and complete their separate story branches. Than the end game after those are completed. This was a narrative structure used in Kotor, Origins, and ME1. I can't speak for Baldur's Gate as I have yet to play it.

Recent games from BioWare games have moved away from this structure. Think of ME2. Right away the intro pulls you into the game. They kill of the main protagonist within the first 5min. Only to have him brought back. The structure for ME2's narrative is a lot more loose. You recruit a few squad mates. Story mission. Recruit some more or do some loyalty missions. Story mission. Than after the collector base you are allowed at anytime to go and get the reaper IFF.

Point being I think its the narrative structure that sometimes makes the game feel a bit sloggish at times. Recent BioWare games have moved away from this structure. With mixed results it seems. To me as long as the majority of the game outweighs its flaws than I will enjoy the game. I can't tell you how many times I have replayed Kotor, Origins, and ME1, ME2. All complete gems in my opinion.

I have some hope for DA3. Just remember that theres more to the game than intro.

[Rann]

I find it's a mixed bag. The opening of BG1 is the epitome of "slog" to me, but I enjoy replaying Irenicus' Dungeon in BG2. NWN opening is definitely sloggish to me (and NWN2, though even a worse slog, doesn't count since it's Obsidian :-)), whereas DAO keeps me engaged every time. DA2 definitely has some slog in my opinion and I try to get through the opening as quickly as I can. So, for me, I'm hoping that the "Star Trek" rule applies, and the next DA will make me want to replay the beginning again and again... :-)

[Maria Caliban]

I like how many people are using the word 'slog.'

It makes my heart sparkly.

[DragonAgeLegend]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Based on discussion on the BSN, I feel there's a very mixed reception to the pacing of the beginning.

Many have stated they found it jarring to jump straight into an escape as Hawke without much context. They feel it undermined the effect of losing a sibling, as they hadn't yet established any reason to care for said sibling. I find these people tend to appreciate the slower beginnings of the Origins stories, as it helped them feel established in the setting and to make sense of some of the relationships.


On the counterpoint, I do agree DAO feels more like a slog (you think you guys think Ostagar is a slog, aye carumba!), and there have been some that feel that DA2's speedier introduction is preferrable (even some who feel that the sibling death was undermined due to the briefness actually don't mind the overall pace of the intro).

I think it's a tricky card to play. I personally value the first playthrough over subsequent playthrough (since it's untainted by extra knowledge), but that's just my perspective.

I agree with what the other people thought about DA2's beginning compared to that of DAO. I think having a longer intro like in DAO was great, It made me feel more connected to the characters I first encountered. Espeically when I met them again throught the game. (I play a mage, so I'm talking about Jowan and the Senior Enchanter.)

[BouncyFrag]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

No intro section ever can compare to the sheer tedium that was Peragus/Citadel Station in KOTOR 2. We just went through a stupid maze of locked doors and puzzles so we can go and play errand boy for a couple hours.

How's about we convince a security droid to give us some info......warning, this could take a while.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVaGtbIqtFQ