148 réponses à ce sujet

[DaringMoosejaw]

Ostagar was a pain in the ass, especially for me being a completionist and having to run around that damn swamp for an hour to finish all the little quests. However, nothing Bioware could create can live up to the word 'slog' the way Guild Wars did with the Ruins of Ascalon (Though technically the pre-time skip was the starting area). Oh man, oh man. Do you enjoy looking at the same fiery charred landscape for the next week it'll take to get out of there and into the relief of Shiverpeaks? Do you enjoy fighting hordes of the exact same enemy? Do you enjoy being RANDOMLY AMBUSHED BY SCORPIONS LITERALLY EVERY TWENTY FEET? My god. I could not cross the first zone once without having to kill a dozen goddamned scorpions. By the time I reached Shiverpeaks, my soul had been sucked out and I gave up the game right then and there.

Compared to that, an hour in the swamp is bliss.

Modifié par DaringMoosejaw, 03 décembre 2012 - 11:57 .

[Liamv2]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

No intro section ever can compare to the sheer tedium that was Peragus/Citadel Station in KOTOR 2. We just went through a stupid maze of locked doors and puzzles so we can go and play errand boy for a couple hours.

This that level was more evil than the final boss

[JWvonGoethe]

Give us different ways to play the opening sequence. Giving the player strong, clear choices near the beginning serves as a way to establish player agency as a feature for the the remainder of the game.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 03 décembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[brushyourteeth]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Give us different ways to play the opening sequence. Instilling in the player a strong sense of agency near the beginning serves to establish that as a feature for the the remainder of the game.

I agree. I think the best way to diminish the terror of replaying the first area is to offer a greater variety of options from the starting area, making it fun and interesting to play a second, third, or fourth time.

We treat Bioware games like they're a cake. We bake us a vanilla cake (Ostagar) and spice it up as we go along by adding frosting, coconut, sprinkles, etc (all our choices thereafter). Let us have more options than just vanilla from the start, or let us have vanilla with strawberry filling one time and caramel creme the next. Let us be surprised to find that we can add in a different ingredient this playthrough.

It's not the length of the area that kills us, it's the fact that it's flat and unsurprising compared with the rest of the game. Using the same formula but shortening it in DAII didn't make it any better.

Ostagar felt like a freight train you had to push yourself, but in the end it was only going in one predictable direction. DAII's Lothering was like riding one at top-speed, but it still felt tedious because the outcome was predictable and largely out of our control.

More control, more options, more surprises (if at all possible) sounds like the most appealing solution to me.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 03 décembre 2012 - 05:35 .

[Kidd]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I like how many people are using the word 'slog.'

It makes my heart sparkly.

How sparkly are we speaking, madame? Are there sparkles of the twilight variety - not to be confused with vampires?

[Spankoman]

I enjoyed Ostagar. On my playthroughs (after the first) I always thought of it as the calm before the storm.

DA2's beginning didn't make much of an impression on me. The "escape" part. The rest of it was fine.

[BubbleDncr]

I think what tends to happen with me, is I'll start a playthrough, begrudgingly go through Ostagar, but the experience of it makes me lose interest in the game for awhile after that.

That said, it was fine the first time through, just on repeat playings it's dull.

Prior to DA, the most "role-playing" type game I ever played before was Zelda games, which always have a slow ease in (some people complain too slow), but its what I'm used to and like doing. Gives me time to get introduced to the world, have a little fun wandering around, etc. For DA2, I had really been looking forward to tooling around Lothering, maybe hearing rumors about some grey warden that dealt with all the bandits, a scary qunari prisoner, etc, before darkspawn came pouring in. And yea, that probably would have given me enough time to get to know my siblings, decide who I liked better, and then be sad if that one ended up dying.

[brushyourteeth]

Spankoman wrote...

I enjoyed Ostagar. On my playthroughs (after the first) I always thought of it as the calm before the storm.

DA2's beginning didn't make much of an impression on me. The "escape" part. The rest of it was fine.

I loved Ostagar the first time. With each playthrough, however, it got more and more tiresome.

Now I have to muster up a whole lot of Origins nostalgia to power my playthrough if I want to make it all the way through to the other parts of the game.

Not a problem for most people, supposedly, since "most people" apparently don't replay. So on that basis, I guess it's enough that it was interesting the first time, though I think the DA team could accomplish pretty much anything if given the time and the resources, and the desire to attempt it. But since that isn't the case, I prefer Ostagar to Blighted Lothering.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I have no problem with any of those starting locations, except for Irencius dungeon - that was like Bobby Kotick ideal work-place, full of depression and misery.

[Nefla]

I'm one of those people who wants to feel well integrated/established into the world and not plopped right in with little to no intro like ME3 and DA2 (HATED the beginnings of both games). Washing up on a beach somewhere out of the blue like in DA2 is not something I would want to repeat. It would be a large point against me playing DA3.

Also I'm apparently weird since I LOVE the deep roads. I love the design, the creepiness, all the little things you can do and discover like the topsider's honor, the one with the demon body parts, the crosscut drifters, etc...and how big it is. I love to explore and find and learn and discover things when I play a game. There was not a single dungeon in DA2 that I loved or even liked. Put aside that there were only a handful of unique locations, each dungeon was so tiny and took maybe 5-10 minutes to get through. Enter, go along the one unbranching path, kill 10,000 parachuting weak enemies, get to the end, talk to a person or demon who is always at the end and kill whatever it is with no puzzles, no exploration, no chance to reason with whoever at the end and join them or persuade them to go away, rinse and repeat. I hated this so much and would hate for it to be repeated.

[Gileadan]

Nefla wrote...

Also I'm apparently weird since I LOVE the deep roads. I love the design, the creepiness, all the little things you can do and discover like the topsider's honor, the one with the demon body parts, the crosscut drifters, etc...and how big it is.

I really like the DAO deep roads too. It is awesome how overwhelmingly huge they are, with all those neat little details to discover. In comparison, the DA2 deep roads felt like a walk through a theme park to me, a theme park built by someone who had maybe read about the real deep roads but had never seen the actual place themselves.

[ScotGaymer]

Nefla wrote...

Also I'm apparently weird since I LOVE the deep roads. I love the design, the creepiness, all the little things you can do and discover like the topsider's honor, the one with the demon body parts, the crosscut drifters, etc...and how big it is.

And that for me was the problem with the Deep Roads.

I loved the Deep Roads quests and design too. My only problem was the section was too damn long.

The very definition of a slog.

Eugh.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 03 décembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[esper]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Also I'm apparently weird since I LOVE the deep roads. I love the design, the creepiness, all the little things you can do and discover like the topsider's honor, the one with the demon body parts, the crosscut drifters, etc...and how big it is.

And that for me was the problem with the Deep Roads.

I loved the Deep Roads quests and design too. My only problem was the section was too damn long.

The very definition of a slog.

Eugh.

Part of it also seemed unnecessary.
First we have the part before the thaigh
Then we have the taigh with the spider
Then we had darklspawn area
then we have the anvil.

Without a freaking break. And all the areas were soo long too. One of two of the hubs could have been cut out of made optional without it hurting the story. Why weren't we just ambushed before leaving Ostagar for example.

That is also we I worry about the level at the size of da2. If it is a hub or a story arch that involved nothing, but walking and fighting for 80 % out of it I know I will hate it.

[AppealToReason]

I've always dug the way Gears did it. You still have the level, but they have some way of making it feel as though you're not a super soldier who doesn't know how to soldier with the 2 choices at the start.

[AppealToReason]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Also I'm apparently weird since I LOVE the deep roads. I love the design, the creepiness, all the little things you can do and discover like the topsider's honor, the one with the demon body parts, the crosscut drifters, etc...and how big it is.

And that for me was the problem with the Deep Roads.

I loved the Deep Roads quests and design too. My only problem was the section was too damn long.

The very definition of a slog.

Eugh.

That is easily my favourite part of Origins. Slog or no, I love it. Couldn't get enough.

[Crell77]

I prefer the slower begining of DA:O to the speedy begining of DA 2, even with extra knowledge fon second, and even third playtroughs, just add some extra info that is only available on second playthroughs, like they did in that old ps2 game, Breath of Fire: Dragon quarter.

[deatharmonic]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Based on discussion on the BSN, I feel there's a very mixed reception to the pacing of the beginning.

Many have stated they found it jarring to jump straight into an escape as Hawke without much context. They feel it undermined the effect of losing a sibling, as they hadn't yet established any reason to care for said sibling. I find these people tend to appreciate the slower beginnings of the Origins stories, as it helped them feel established in the setting and to make sense of some of the relationships.


On the counterpoint, I do agree DAO feels more like a slog (you think you guys think Ostagar is a slog, aye carumba!), and there have been some that feel that DA2's speedier introduction is preferrable (even some who feel that the sibling death was undermined due to the briefness actually don't mind the overall pace of the intro).

I think it's a tricky card to play. I personally value the first playthrough over subsequent playthrough (since it's untainted by extra knowledge), but that's just my perspective.

I agree with this. For me the first playthrough is always going to be more key than the next. The slow paced intro to Origins didn't stop me from replaying the game another 6 or more times, because those initial intro's allowed me to set up my characters motivations for the rest of the game. As a human noble, whatever I did my aim was always Howe's head, so that initial opening propelled me through the game, even on subsequent playthroughs. With DA2 on the other hand, I didn't want to replay the game because of the disconnect I felt from the initial rush at the beginning. There was nothing to aim for, I was just plodding through the story line as hawke.

[Heimdall]

CrazyRah wrote...

For me Taris is the real slog. That planet know exactly how to be as boring and tedious as possible. Taris almost managed on its own make me give up on Kotor. Eden Prime can perhaps be like a slog but since it's a very short part i blitz through it before coffee is done. DAO and Ostagar don't feel like a slog to me yet at least. Then again i've like only done all of Ostagar 3 times. But i very much prefer the slower beginnings in a game rather than the beginning we had in DA2 with getting thrown directly into the escape as Hawke with a couple of complete strangers to me. Out of all Bioware games that i've played i think Origins is the closest to how i prefer beginnings. It's not perfect mind you and there's room for improvements

Eden Prime wasn't an issue but the initial Citadel segment tacked onto it was pretty bad.

[Ianamus]

I don't mind starter levels so much, but that's because I rarely replay games. The actual origins in Origins weren't too bad because I played a different one each time so they were always new, but Ostagar always felt like a slog.

That said, I don't particularly like DA:2's approach. Being pushed into Hawke's situation with very little buildup made it a lot less meaningful, and I never felt time to connect to the world before stuff happened that I was supposed to care about. We got to know Duncan before his death at Ostagar, your sibling's death was like Duncan if you had been thrust into Origins at the start of that battle.

I tend to much prefer the start of games like MMO's or bethesda games, which let you go and do your own thing almost immediately. I understand that this is much harder in more linear story driven games, but incorperating more freedom into the starting area's might help. That way you could at least go a different path/ make a different choice at the beginning the next time so it is slightly different. 

Modifié par EJ107, 04 décembre 2012 - 12:58 .

[Maria Caliban]

kartupelis wrote...

I am sorry, but I possibly can not pay attention to something a pony-wan**r has said.

I don't know what a pony-wanker is.

[Amirit]

I for one loved Ostagar (still do after countless runs). And Deep Roads too, if it matters, though we are talking about Intro here. Gamers are different. For some of us rush introductions (ME3 - the worst case of all) do not help. Mb starting areas have to be shorter but unresolved questions (ME3, DA2 - a lot of them) haunt me forever, I'd rather tolerate long start.

[Nefla]

Gileadan wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Also I'm apparently weird since I LOVE the deep roads. I love the design, the creepiness, all the little things you can do and discover like the topsider's honor, the one with the demon body parts, the crosscut drifters, etc...and how big it is.

I really like the DAO deep roads too. It is awesome how overwhelmingly huge they are, with all those neat little details to discover. In comparison, the DA2 deep roads felt like a walk through a theme park to me, a theme park built by someone who had maybe read about the real deep roads but had never seen the actual place themselves.

Totally agree DA2 deep roads were like a cheap immitation!

[PsychoBlonde]

I think something that might help this issue would be to put more branching and options in the opening(s), and particularly not to *lock interesting game features* (crafting, specializations, behind the prologue-ending wall. It also might help if you accelerate the leveling in the prologue of the game, so that by the end of it you have enough abilities to really get a feel for what makes your class distinct and to have established a general build path.

One of the factors that also generally turns the intro into a slog is that you are *extremely* resource-starved at the beginning of the game, so you will necessarily want to loot every conceivable container and follow up on every conceivable activity, as having a little extra gold or a few extra items right at the start can have consequences that ramify throughout the entire game.

So, a perspective change might be incredibly valuable. Instead of having an intro where you basically start out buck-naked and gradually acquire gear and funds one tiny bit at a time, why not try out an intro style where you get *issued* a complete set of gear and consumables and skill kits and whatever, and you're sent off to complete a bunch of tasks in a (relatively) confined area.

Say, maybe, that you start out as a mercenary in a fortress under siege. Your commander has just bought the farm, leaving you holding the bag as the highest-ranking person there. The entire armory and all the stores are open to you. There are men to command, walls to buttress, sapper tunnels to close off, assault towers to burn, wall breaches to trap, wounded to heal, negotiations to conduct, rations to manage . . . a plethora of options are open to you, yet it still possesses the contained atmosphere of an opening. And, if you really find it THAT boring, you can just surrender and get it over with. Then, when the opening is over, you get taken prisoner (or whatever), lose all your gear, and the game proper with its resource starvation starts with you escaping and being able to go wherever and do whatever.

Or, maybe you're a passenger on a ship when the Captain and officers fall deadly ill, leaving the crew and other passengers terrified and helpless. Sure, you COULD just order them to make for the nearest port, but you could also investigate the events, treat the officers, discover the mysterious cargo, find out what the various passengers are up to . . .

Or, maybe you're in a mine that has had a partial collapse. Or maybe you are traveling with a caravan that gets attacked by bandits or Dalish and subsequently scattered/lost in some very bad territory. There are lots of options for openings that don't involve "follow this line to receive your exposition".

The opening of KotOR II at Peragus IV station was very like this, and it was a *lot* of fun--in my opinion the best part of the game. You got to use all of your skills, investigate the collapse of the station, meet some alarming yet interesting people, pilot your little droid . . . there were so many things to do that when you were done it was kind of a let-down, especially since the planets that came after were much less developed. Compare that with the opening of NwN2, which was your *classic* boring slog.

Another thing that KotOR II did well was that it was up to you to figure out what to do and how to do it. Kreya was singularly unhelpful, and all Atton did was sit at a console. The need to escape from the station was *obvious*, so you didn't need an authority figure assigning you busy-work or chivvying you around. Contrast this to the various Origins, in which you're basically assigned a task right at the beginning (do the Harrowing, get married, attend a party, etc. etc.) or the beginning of DAII, where your mom unilaterally decides on Kirkwall then Flemeth saves your tochis and then Gamlen sells you into servitude. At what point do you get to make any decisions of your own?

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 04 décembre 2012 - 03:03 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Nefla wrote...

Gileadan wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Also I'm apparently weird since I LOVE the deep roads. I love the design, the creepiness, all the little things you can do and discover like the topsider's honor, the one with the demon body parts, the crosscut drifters, etc...and how big it is.

I really like the DAO deep roads too. It is awesome how overwhelmingly huge they are, with all those neat little details to discover. In comparison, the DA2 deep roads felt like a walk through a theme park to me, a theme park built by someone who had maybe read about the real deep roads but had never seen the actual place themselves.

Totally agree DA2 deep roads were like a cheap immitation!

Sadly the Origins deep roads felt like a cheap imitation of another, better dungeon crawl to *me*.  The ones in DAII at least had the virtue of being SHORT.